Harm Reduction ⫸Should I Try HEROIN?⫷

[Olivia Nicole]

Come to think of it: wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen with all of this enlightenment and progressive thinking going around, shut down the DEA, and open the floodgates. Let's see how responsible everyone would be and where many many more would end up.

This is off-topic but the Portuguese model has had an overall positive impact on their society.

Drug decriminalisation in Portugal: setting the record straight. | Transform

transformdrugs.org

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

The long read: Since it decriminalised all drugs in 2001, Portugal has seen dramatic drops in overdoses, HIV infection and drug-related crime

www.theguardian.com

"Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal."
-Susana Ferreira, The Guardian

 

[December Flower]

This is off-topic but the Portuguese model has had an overall positive impact on their society.

Drug decriminalisation in Portugal: setting the record straight. | Transform

transformdrugs.org

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

The long read: Since it decriminalised all drugs in 2001, Portugal has seen dramatic drops in overdoses, HIV infection and drug-related crime

www.theguardian.com

Hey there's lots of arguments for decriminalization, so addicts can have a sort-of normal life, and don't have to do the things they do for their heroin, risking death every day thanks to fentanyl, selling their bodies, stealing from friends and family.

There's basically no argument for starting heroin, unless you have a medical condition that needs it. Your body will just grow foreign to body-opioids and be stuck.

I understand you want to defend your use, and it's great that you have been so stable, but most people are not like you, and you have to respect that, and be careful of what you stand for. You want to stand for decriminalization, I understand that fully, but don't you care that just one person might be reading your posts, try the heroin, and like it? In this world, where making money is worth more than a life(@ fentanyl)?

You just have to know that in our reality this "hobby" of yours is life-threatening. And it's degrading, what people do to themselves to get more money for it. I'm fully for a decriminalization/to allow the clinics to give the people actual heroin for their taper. But that's no fucking reason to start. Why start? Cuz it's so pleasurable that you will never really enjoy anything else like you did before? Sounds wonderful. That's a cage. The only sensible reason to start is if you have a medical condition where you need it. It's medicine for people who have ridiculous pain, and it should not be abused.

 

[Pickledlemons]

I'm glad you acknowledged this. For people in severe physical and mental/emotional pain, the risk of addiction is serious. But even in those cases it can help. My boyfriend is a guitarist and suffers from major depression and heroin clears his head enough to allow him to write and play music.

But other people asking themselves, "Should I do heroin?" are drawn to it out of a sense of adventure and curiosity. Heroin is, to quote a song by Cold Play, "an island to be discovered".

Not everyone becomes hopelessly addicted. Some people really are invincible. But you won't know until you try it.

I'm not completely insensitive to the idea of opioids as a sort of anti-depressant, but heroin? By what method of administration? IV? Smoking? Nasal? Cause oral heroin just breaks down into morphine which completely defeats the purpose of using heroin. A drug with such a close relationship to your pleasure centers should not be used in anybody without an existing tolerance. Why not a longer lasting, partial agonist like bupe? 250mcg should be enough to get the benefit without setting the dominos in motion... and thats a much more maintainable addiction.

 

[gyp0]

I was actually really curious about this and did some research at one point in the past. I remember finding evidence to suggest that something like 30% of people who try heroin end up developing a habit. Thats a very risky roll of the dice.

And the other 70% learn that it's a lot like smoking cigarettes in that it's really not that pleasant until you're horrendously addicted which, in my experience, you will be almost immediately.

My pet theory and I'm a construction labourer so take it fwiw (nothing) is that some people would respond well to tianeptine

"tianeptine is a full agonist at the mu opioid receptor"

"The μ-opioid receptors appear to be more relevant for the social and affective regulation associated with BPD, suggesting that this system can contribute to the interpersonal vulnerabilities and intrapersonal pain of BPD."

I don't want to offend anyone by throwing the BPD label around, full disclosure I think it applies to me. I say "think" because even if the mental health professionals that I've been referred to in my life also thought that I qualified for a BPD diagnosis there are many legitimate-ish reasons not to tell me or write it in my records, so all I know is that I've never been diagnosed and now that I'm 41 years old I doubt that I ever will be.

I think most people simply have no idea how terrible (some) BPD people feel most of the time so they have no idea how much "pain" is relieved when (some) BPD people fuck around with opiates.

Please, for the love of God, don't do it.

There are far fewer tianptine addiction horror stories but even with that, more than none. And of all the opiates that one can use, the duration of action and dose escalation rate of heroin makes it practically useless. I'm not a just say no guy but for people like me and opiates: for the love of yourself, preferably, but anything else will do, leave the heroin to the anaesthetists and the terrorists, it's shit one way or it's shit the other.

Peace, good health and love.

 

[Olivia Nicole]

And the other 70% learn that it's a lot like smoking cigarettes in that it's really not that pleasant until you're horrendously addicted which, in my experience, you will be almost immediately.

I'm not a just say no guy but for people like me...

It sounds like you would be among the 20-30% of people who would become addicted after regular use of heroin. The research points to co-morbid illnesses such as BPD and stressful environments (i.e. war, economic recession, ruptured family, abusive relationships) as being the real drivers of addiction.

However, 70-80% of people might be legitimately interested in experiencing the euphoric rush of heroin and they are at no more risk than if they were trying LSD, psilocybin, MDMA, or other drugs.

As Professor Carl Hart says:

"...I have been studying drugs for 22 years, 14 years at Columbia, and we have quite a bit of scientific, evidence-based information. And I am here to tell you, drugs are not the bogeyman that people said they were...

The No. 1 thing we have to do is think ... There are serious consequences to people for exaggerating the effects of drugs."

https://www.college.columbia.edu/cct/archive/winter12/features6

 

[Pickledlemons]

However, 70-80% of people might be legitimately interested in experiencing the euphoric rush of heroin and they are at no more risk than if they were trying LSD, psilocybin, MDMA, or other drugs.

None of those drugs are physically addicting, heroin is. I cant imagine the amount of bias you need to start researching heroin and come back saying its no more dangerous than psilocybin. Go back and try again but this time dont cherry pick.

 

[Pickledlemons]

None of those drugs are so closely tied to our pleasure centre as heroin, so its possible to take mdma and have a great time but since it works on serotonin and not endorphins/dopamine, you dont get that primortial urge to use and use again.

 

[Olivia Nicole]

It's clear to me that people who respond to my comments with ad hominem and name calling would do well to actually read and watch the numerous links that I've included in my posts.

I understand that whenever long held beliefs are challenged and disrupted by new evidence and research the reaction can be strong and emotional but the fact is most of what we've been told about 'addiction' is not true.

Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong

What really causes addiction -- to everything from cocaine to smart-phones? And how can we overcome it? Johann Hari has seen our current methods fail firsthand, as he has watched loved ones struggle to manage their addictions. He started to wonder why we treat addicts the way we do -- and if...

www.ted.com

"Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal."
-Susana Ferreira, The Guardian

 

[Pickledlemons]

I never used an ad hominem, I'm sure youre a very nice person but the fact is, the research you are linking is a small minority... you can find a study that says just about anything, what matters is the scientific consensus.

 

[December Flower]

It sounds like you would be among the 20-30% of people who would become addicted after regular use of heroin. The research points to co-morbid illnesses such as BPD and stressful environments (i.e. war, economic recession, ruptured family, abusive relationships) as being the real drivers of addiction.

However, 70-80% of people might be legitimately interested in experiencing the euphoric rush of heroin and they are at no more risk than if they were trying LSD, psilocybin, MDMA, or other drugs.

As Professor Carl Hart says:

"...I have been studying drugs for 22 years, 14 years at Columbia, and we have quite a bit of scientific, evidence-based information. And I am here to tell you, drugs are not the bogeyman that people said they were...

The No. 1 thing we have to do is think ... There are serious consequences to people for exaggerating the effects of drugs."

https://www.college.columbia.edu/cct/archive/winter12/features6

OK already, you sucked his dick enough.
It's just one human. Just because he says something doesn't mean there's any truth to it. If he did this stuff non-profit, I'd say fine, but he takes money for saying this shit.

It's not 20%-30% who get addicted after regular use. it's 20-30% who can't stop themselves after the first time and develop an addiction. After regular use it's about 90% who get addicted. Haha. What a conclusion, no wonder you never think about anyone but yourself, and are completely oblivious to what you're doing here. Where does that 70-80% number come from? Your butt? Also no, I did hallucinogens for years, and could stop cold turkey. No damage, psychological or otherwise. Try that with heroin, darling

Almost everyone who does heroin daily is physically dependant & psychologically addicted. There's no grey zone. YOU personally are fucking dependant, I tell you you probably couldn't even miss one single shot out of sheer willpower. Since all your willpower is directed at making heroin look like gummibears Your mind is a master gymnast

You're so incredibly lucky with this shit, and you take it like it's a given. Like everyone is doing so easy with heroin. Read through the sections TDS, HR & Discussion about Heroin in other drugs, and count the number of threads that are people crying for help to get out of their opioid addiction. There's thousands, literally thousands of threads. Hell, read through this thread, as you claim you have, but now you show difficulty obtaining correct information when you read, so I don't trust your reading anymore
You're a fucking liar if you tell anyone that 80% of people can handle heroin, because they CAN'T.

20-30% of people can't stop after the first time. That's a big difference. Others can handle themselves for a few years, but this forum is evidence how many of the people who think exactly like you break at a certain point. Something very bad happens, and they take more opioids, and suddenly realise they can't get out anymore. Hundreds of these cases, you can read all about it here. It's definitely not 80% of people who can chip heroin and not get addicted, that's just a conclusion drawn wrong

 

[Olivia Nicole]

OK already, you sucked his dick enough.

You're a fucking liar

People deserve accurate, non-judgmental information about heroin. The truth is:

1) most people (70-80 percent) can try heroin once without becoming addicted

Facts About Heroin Without the Stigma

Heroin is a man-made opioid drug that helps to relieve pain. Learn more.

drugpolicy.org

2) a lot of people become horribly addicted after using heroin regularly, but not everyone

Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong

What really causes addiction -- to everything from cocaine to smart-phones? And how can we overcome it? Johann Hari has seen our current methods fail firsthand, as he has watched loved ones struggle to manage their addictions. He started to wonder why we treat addicts the way we do -- and if...

www.ted.com

3) the real harm has more to do with the sociolegal context of heroin use than the drug itself

A Columbia professor argues against our drug puritanism

Exploring the promise — and blind spots — of Carl Hart’s “Drug Use for Grown-Ups.”

www.vox.com

 

[December Flower]

People deserve accurate, non-judgmental information about heroin. The truth is:

1) most people (70-80 percent) can try heroin once without becoming addicted

Facts About Heroin Without the Stigma

Heroin is a man-made opioid drug that helps to relieve pain. Learn more.

drugpolicy.org

2) a lot of people become horribly addicted after using heroin regularly, but not everyone

Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong

What really causes addiction -- to everything from cocaine to smart-phones? And how can we overcome it? Johann Hari has seen our current methods fail firsthand, as he has watched loved ones struggle to manage their addictions. He started to wonder why we treat addicts the way we do -- and if...

www.ted.com

3) the real harm has more to do with the sociolegal context of heroin use than the drug itself

A Columbia professor argues against our drug puritanism

Exploring the promise — and blind spots — of Carl Hart’s “Drug Use for Grown-Ups.”

www.vox.com

Hey that's cool, you can discuss this at length in philosophy class,
or have lengthy discussions with other addicts.

But you're just playing with lives here, because you think you know better.
If my bullshit words could harm even one person, I'd be ashamed.

The truth you can read a lot about in this forum, the actual truth and what lies under the belly of all this shit. Just look at the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of threads of people BEGGING for their life to get normal again after opioid abuse.

So what if it has to do with the sociolegal context? The "sociolegal" context is that heroin today is adulterated with fentanyl almost everywhere, and has people dying like flies because they can't know how much of what drug they're actually taking. That's the fucking reality, and just because your dreamworld looks all fluffy doesn't make it real. You can dream up all you want, but we don't live in a perfect world, and in this world people die from heroin/fent. And you keep telling them to take it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

You know I said, I'm going to stop you, but it turns out, I just can't talk any longer to you, or I will prefer a bullet to my head. So toodles, how about you tell some more people to take heroin, you obviously don't care

edit: and let me just remind you that heroin was fully legal, people thought it was the fucking wondercure - until people went fucking insane over their medicine. There's more factors to this than you're willing to admit

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

Trying heroin is the worst mistake I've ever done. Almost killed me in more than one way.
There's no comparing to doing pills. It's not another league, or sport, it's another fucking world entirely.

 

[JessFR]

People deserve accurate, non-judgmental information about heroin. The truth is:

1) most people (70-80 percent) can try heroin once without becoming addicted

Facts About Heroin Without the Stigma

Heroin is a man-made opioid drug that helps to relieve pain. Learn more.

drugpolicy.org

2) a lot of people become horribly addicted after using heroin regularly, but not everyone

Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong

What really causes addiction -- to everything from cocaine to smart-phones? And how can we overcome it? Johann Hari has seen our current methods fail firsthand, as he has watched loved ones struggle to manage their addictions. He started to wonder why we treat addicts the way we do -- and if...

www.ted.com

3) the real harm has more to do with the sociolegal context of heroin use than the drug itself

A Columbia professor argues against our drug puritanism

Exploring the promise — and blind spots — of Carl Hart’s “Drug Use for Grown-Ups.”

www.vox.com

Waitwaitwaitwaaitwait...

You're admitting that roughly 1 in 4 people who try heroin will become addicted on the very first try.

Not even counting prolonged use.

Is that not, in and of itself, an excellent reason NOT to try heroin? Rofl.

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

People deserve accurate, non-judgmental information about heroin. The truth is:

1) most people (70-80 percent) can try heroin once without becoming addicted

Facts About Heroin Without the Stigma

Heroin is a man-made opioid drug that helps to relieve pain. Learn more.

drugpolicy.org

2) a lot of people become horribly addicted after using heroin regularly, but not everyone

Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong

What really causes addiction -- to everything from cocaine to smart-phones? And how can we overcome it? Johann Hari has seen our current methods fail firsthand, as he has watched loved ones struggle to manage their addictions. He started to wonder why we treat addicts the way we do -- and if...

www.ted.com

3) the real harm has more to do with the sociolegal context of heroin use than the drug itself

A Columbia professor argues against our drug puritanism

Exploring the promise — and blind spots — of Carl Hart’s “Drug Use for Grown-Ups.”

www.vox.com

Psychological addiction can definitely hook you after the first taste.
Then you're fucked.

Have you tried or been addicted to heroin or are you just pulling numbers?

 

[JessFR]

Psychological addiction can definitely hook you after the first taste.
Then you're fucked.

Have you tried or been addicted to heroin or are you just pulling numbers?

They kinda seem like bad numbers at that. Unless I missed it the source actually says 80% of people who use heroin don't become dependant.

Which is itself unsourced by the source, it's just a random "fact" ascribed to federal research without actually showing in any way how that number was reached.

And also.. Frankly. I don't believe it. Heroin, like all opioids. Is dependency inducing. If you keep using it, you'll eventually become dependant. Period. You can't keep using it in the long term and not find yourself dependant at some point.

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

They kinda seem like bad numbers at that. Unless I missed it the source actually says 80% of people who use heroin don't become dependant.

Which is itself unsourced by the source, it's just a random "fact" ascribed to federal research without actually showing in any way how that number was reached.

And also.. Frankly. I don't believe it. Heroin, like all opioids. Is dependency inducing. If you keep using it, you'll eventually become dependant. Period. You can't keep using it in the long term and not find yourself dependant at some point.

Right?

I've never met a heroin-chipper.

 

[JessFR]

Have you tried or been addicted to heroin or are you just pulling numbers?

I'll admit I've had this question in the back of my head for a while too I've just never asked it.

I mean. Spending this much effort for this long to justify heroin use, it reminds me a little of the kinda thinking I did earlier in my addiction.

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

I'll admit I've had this question in the back of my head for a while too I've just never asked it.

I mean. Spending this much effort for this long to justify heroin use, it reminds me a little of the kinda thinking I did earlier in my addiction.

Yeah, so did I. But instead of listening, I went ahead and tried it anyway.

I wish someone would've slapped me. But I doubt that would've made a difference. I had this fucked up idea that I wanted to feel the pull of heroin.
I wanted to understand heroin addiction, not by words, but experience. What a fucking moron..

I've got debts I'll probably never be able to pay-off, like ever. I'll have to commit some kind of heist and disappear.
There's a tag on my head and I've burned so many bridges the smell of gasoline seems permanent.

Fuck. Heroin.

But damn if it isn't the best fucking feelin in the world.

 

[December Flower]

I'll admit I've had this question in the back of my head for a while too I've just never asked it.

I mean. Spending this much effort for this long to justify heroin use, it reminds me a little of the kinda thinking I did earlier in my addiction.

I suppose this is because the psychological side of the addiction is so incredibly sneaky. It seems easy to find more and more reasons to justify the use.

I've personally only smoked Opium, three times, and even that had a strong psychological allure. The nights seemed so magical, although nothing special whatsoever happened. I still remember every experience fondly and wanted to try it again for quite some time, until, well, my circle of friends dove into heroin, and some of them got seriously addicted.