What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[indigoaura]

There was some study done a few years ago and the conclusion was that something like 85% of seized "molly" at an ultra music festival one year did not even have trace amounts of MDMA, so i think that even that 25% number of people reporting to have used is way lower.

As for the pupil dilation piece, this, in my opinion, is pointless because there are clearly "meh" product/experiences that cause pupil dilation...

I literally acknowledged this when I posted:

Before the debate ensues, I acknowledge that out of that 25% there will be the typical subset of "bunk" pills in circulation where the user is getting something like meth or tylenol.

But, also, the article I posted never indicated that the MDMA used was purchased at the rave. Considering the change in culture with the rise of the DW, I would assume more people bring their own product than before.

But none of that changes the fact that I have observed, and Biscuit has observed, and a few other people in the EDM scene have also observed, that those who appear to be on MDMA are few and far between at EDM events. This may simply be due to cultural change, as you believe, and an increase in the number of events, or it could somehow be related to the topic of this thread. I genuinely don't understand why a short observation inspires so much debate, however.

Also, where are you seeing people report meh experiences with pupil dilation? I don't recall a lot of them in this thread.

@Negi

Looks like I misread that 2nd study, my apologies.

Perhaps, in general, I overestimate the number of people who do MDMA. I came of age surrounded by MDMA users. My entire social circle revolved around MDMA. For reasons I won't go into here, I had limited socialization and exposure to the world until I left home at 18. At that point, I immediately fell into the race scene and met my people there. My perception of how common MDMA usage is may be skewed by my own experience.

 

[Jmoda]

I literally acknowledged this when I posted:


But, also, the article I posted never indicated that the MDMA used was purchased at the rave. Considering the change in culture with the rise of the DW, I would assume more people bring their own product than before.

But none of that changes the fact that I have observed, and Biscuit has observed, and a few other people in the EDM scene have also observed, that those who appear to be on MDMA are few and far between at EDM events. This may simply be due to cultural change, as you believe, and an increase in the number of events, or it could somehow be related to the topic of this thread. I genuinely don't understand why a short observation inspires so much debate, however.

Also, where are you seeing people report meh experiences with pupil dilation? I don't recall a lot of them in this thread.

@Negi

Looks like I misread that 2nd study, my apologies.

Perhaps, in general, I overestimate the number of people who do MDMA. I came of age surrounded by MDMA users. My entire social circle revolved around MDMA. For reasons I won't go into here, I had limited socialization and exposure to the world until I left home at 18. At that point, I immediately fell into the race scene and met my people there. My perception of how common MDMA usage is may be skewed by my own experience.

My apologies - I didn't mean to come off as arguing your point, rather expand on that very point you mentioned, but putting emphasis that the "standard subset", is quite a large subset, in fact, majority.

 

[indigoaura]

I dont think its any secret that festival crowds have changed for the worse as things get more mainstream.

I totally agree with this overall, and it is not just the EDM scene. I can't go to any kind of music event anymore without dealing with the people who are not there for the music, but just there to talk and socialize.

 

[Jmoda]

True to a point, but the last MagicDMA I had didn't cause massive pupil dilation - it was significant but not excessive. But everything else was there in shitloads...

Concerning pupil dilation; I do not think this is a good way to judge between Meh and Magic. My pupils sometimes don't even dilate on LSD because I often times take it with a mild opioid like kratom. I've had pupil dilation on both Meh and Magic. Even without opioids it seems very random now. I don't just get this with these two substances. Various RCs known to dilate pupils sometimes don't do it to me. Sometimes they only dilate for parts of the trip/roll.

With opioids being so common now I wonder how many reports of pupils not dilating are just folks mixing MDMA with an opioid. Another thing to consider is Fent being such a common cut that it's showing up even in cocaine. I wouldn't doubt that some people are cutting crystal MDMA with Fent down the distribution line. These idiots are adding it to everything these days because they think it'll hook the customer faster.

Here are two examples of pupil dilation being iffy. One has had pupil dilation on both meh and magic product. One had a magic experience and only some pupil dilation, seemingly not the "cant see any colors of your eyes" kind

 

[Jmoda]

This ability to pee normally rules out meh as being mbdb as was suggested earlier on. on mbdb pissing becomes quite difficult and while u feel the need to piss you can't get out more than a few drops before stopping.i don't get it with mdma just mbdb.it was a common side effect experienced by many ppl.its sort of a signature of the substance.

Sorry to bring up a possibly already discussed point, but I was looking back and found this one particularly interesting.

I distinctly remember that none of our crew had any trouble peeing until around 2014 when it seemed to then happen all the time. Part of the reason could be dose, we would stupidly take some pretty heroic doses back in the day, really even as recently as a two years ago..although before 2014, even with heroic doses, it never seemed to be an issue. Then all of a sudden it started being an issue. Hm...

 

[indigoaura]

One thing I have been meaning to do, but have not done due to time, is to comb through this thread and add all of the user reports to a spreadsheet. I may use Google forms/sheets in such a manner that we could also see pie charts and data about all of these anecdotal experiences. I think it would be helpful to know what percentage of people note the lack of eye dilation, for example.

Despite having some outliers, if it is something that is noted by the majority of those who report the issue, it is valuable information. As @user666 has pointed out, it gives us a possible explanation for which system may be involved in the anomaly.

Whether you favor a product or user focused explanation, understanding which system is involved in this subpar response is still very valuable information.

@user666 Would this Eastern European lab accept international samples? Also, what happens to the separated samples, do they give them back to you?

 

[indigoaura]

Sorry to bring up a possibly already discussed point, but I was looking back and found this one particularly interesting.

I distinctly remember that none of our crew had any trouble peeing until around 2014 when it seemed to then happen all the time. Part of the reason could be dose, we would stupidly take some pretty heroic doses back in the day, really even as recently as a two years ago..although before 2014, even with heroic doses, it never seemed to be an issue. Then all of a sudden it started being an issue. Hm...

For me personally, the inability to urinate was something that usually happened on MDMA, but later in the roll. Usually happened more if I took higher doses. I would be hard pressed to associate it more or less with good/bad experiences. I don't remember this as well.

 

[user666]

You would be wrong:

Yes, I am wrong according to this study.
I was going by the experience in my neck of the woods where tipsy/drunk people cannot even get in because the bouncers breathalyze and search everyone and alcohol is not sold at these events. No liquor license. The drunkards don't even bother coming.

 

[user666]

@user666 Would this Eastern European lab accept international samples?

I'll check

Also, what happens to the separated samples, do they give them back to you?

Yes, separated out in vials.

 

[G_Chem]

Yes, I am wrong according to this study.
I was going by the experience in my neck of the woods where tipsy/drunk people cannot even get in because the bouncers breathalyze and search everyone and alcohol is not sold at these events. No liquor license.

Yea that study was likely done on mainstream “EDM” where the culture is pretty much dead. The scene your talking about is different to the crowds seen at major EDM events like EDC, Ultra, etc.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

Have we seen this one before?

Sci-Hub: article not found

sci-hub.st

In humans, duloxetine inhibited the effects of MDMA including elevations in circulating NE, increases in blood pressure and heart rate, and the subjective drug effects. Duloxetine inhibited the pharmacodynamic response to MDMA despite an increase in duloxetine-associated elevations in plasma MDMA levels. The findings confirm the important role of MDMA-induced 5-HT and NE release in the psychotropic effects of MDMA.

 

[indigoaura]

I keep posting these articles about Duloxetine because they establish some important facts.

1. In this article, they state clearly that,

The pharmacological effect of MDMA can be blocked by monoamine transporter inhibitors.

Link: https://sci-hub.st/https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0036476

2. And we already know, from a previously posted article that some synthesis byproducts inhibit monoamine transporters, as discussed here with compounds 12 and 13.

If added 4 min before MDMA to the superfusion buffer, 12 and 13 concentration-dependently suppressed the release induced by 3 M MDMA in NET-, SERT-, and DAT-expressing cells...

The main finding of this study is that two defined byproducts of illegal MDMA synthesis interact in low micromolar concentrations with the human plasmalemmal monoamine transporters.

On the same line, one could expect that 12 and 13 would attenuate the psychological effects of ecstasy in humans consistent with observations that serotonin uptake inhibitors prevent various effects in human volunteers

In conclusion, we have found that byproducts of illegal ecstasy synthesis can interact with the primary sites of action of MDMA, the monoamine transporters, and were active with similar potency as MDMA. The mode of interaction, predominantly transport inhibition compared with induction of release, argues against a neurotoxic potential of the substances investigated.

Link: https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426

I hate to oversimplify this 290 page debate, but I can't help but see this as a 1+1=2 situation.

All of the following statements are supported with published research.

1. A great deal of illicit MDMA contains synthesis byproducts.

2. The synthesis byproducts vary depending on the synthesis routes, leading to different batches with different impurity profiles.

3. Some of those synthesis byproducts have the potential to inhibit monoamine transporters.

4. MDMA effects (including pupil dilation) are blocked by monoamine transporter inhibitors.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that synthesis byproducts could block the effects of MDMA through monoamine inhibition.

I don't feel like that is a cognitive leap. That statement is supported by published research at this point.

 

[indigoaura]

Also worth noting...

The Duloxetine study used 16 healthy MDMA virgins.

None of the 16 subjects had used ecstasy previously.

Despite this MDMA naive state,

Duloxetine markedly reduced the psychotropic and cardiostimulant responses to MDMA in humans. Duloxetine decreased all aspects of MDMA’s subjective effects in the VASs [8,10], including psychostimulant effects such as feelings of ‘‘good drug effects,’’ ‘‘drug liking,’’ ‘‘drug high,’’ and ‘‘stimulation’’ (Table 1; Fig. 2b-d) but also so-called ‘‘entactogenic’’ or ‘‘empathogenic’’ MDMA-typical effects [31,32] such as feelings of being ‘‘open,’’ ‘‘closer to others,’’ and more ‘‘talkative’’ (Table 1; Fig. 2e and f). In the AMRS [21], duloxetine prevented MDMA-induced increases in ‘‘well-being,’’ ‘‘emotional excitation,’’ and ‘‘extroversion’’

There is a very detailed table that breaks it all down. Also, check the charts on page 7 that show just how blunted the response to MDMA is.

So, now we also know that healthy MDMA virgins will not experience the full effects of MDMA if monoamine transporters are inhibited.

Sci-Hub: article not found

sci-hub.st

 

[indigoaura]

Negi and others have commented that there is not a 100% consistent description of the effects of meh product. This is likely due to variation in the type and amount of synthesis byproducts.

This study points out the possible variation of different inhibiting agents that would lead to...

...unique transporter interactions for different inhibitor-releaser combinations.

Sci-Hub: article not found

sci-hub.st

 

[Ketamania]

Synthesis byproducts and crappy washing

Don't get me started about pills.

 

[indigoaura]

Synthesis byproducts and crappy washing

Don't get me started about pills.

I think this thread lives to get you started.

 

[user666]

I think there is no doubt that monoamine transporter inhibitors wreck the MDMA experience. I don't think even the most avid Meh deniers dispute that.
Adding one of them (e.g. the Duloxetine) to pure MDMA would certainly produce Meh MDMA.

The real issues are:
1) what MDMA synth byproducts act like them ?
2) how potent they are (mg, µg, ng) ?
3) what synth mechanism leads to their formation ?
4) why the old synths didn't generate them ?
5) why labs do not detect them ( could be related to #2 ) ?

As far as that specific example of Duloxetine goes, it is a Naphthol compound, which contains Sulfur (in Thiophene form) and I do not see any mechanism, that could accidentally generate it in any known MDMA synth.

 

[user666]

2. And we already know, from a previously posted article that some synthesis byproducts inhibit monoamine transporters, as discussed here with compounds 12 and 13.

Yes, I wrote about them in this post.

It provides plausible answers to issues #1, #3 and to #5 because of pyrolytic disproprtionation in GC/MS ...and in case of M-ALPHA-HMCA, also to #4.
#2 remains unknown.

P.S.
_{These compounds are so much larger that even a simple column chromatography will separate them. Also, Tosyl Chloride should (in theory) preferentially bind to M-ALPHA-HMCA so it should be possible to detect it that way or even remove it entirely.}

 

[indigoaura]

I realize that to some extent the new study does not really reveal new info. However, what I really found fascinating and beneficial was how it provided visual clarification of a "meh" experience. Obviously, we cannot talk to those 16 MDMA virgins about what they experienced that day, but I found the visual representations of their experiences to line up with my own observations.

It has been hard for me to verbalize and describe the meh experience in comparison to the magic experience. Page 7 of the study really depicts everything in a clear, visual fashion, however.

For example, look at the sense of well being in the charts on page 7. You can see how the MDMA group skyrockets. However, the Duloxetine + MDMA group only minimally increases and then drops. For the feeling of openness, the Duloxetine + MDMA actually dips below the placebo/placebo group. But, you can also see from the "any drug effect" chart that pre-treatment with Duloxetine does not entirely prevent a drug like state, its just much less intense than MDMA, and starts to drop towards baseline at the 2 hour mark.

Those of us who have taken meh product have been desperately trying to articulate all of this. These charts provide visual clarification for all of the issues that we have had a hard time verbalizing. "Well, it feels like it might take off, but then it doesn't," "It feels over in about 2 hours," or "I actually end up feeling worse than before I took it in some ways" are just poor attempts at explaining what these charts convey in a much more precise manner.

Also, I am excited that heart rate (BPM) appears to be a variable that we can track easily according to the chart on page 9. It seems that the difference should be especially notable around the 1.5 hour mark. What do you think @user666 ? A lot of people have an I-Watch, Fitbit, or something similar that could track this.

 

[Jmoda]

Yes, I wrote about them in this post.

It provides plausible answers to issues #1, #3 and to #5 because of pyrolytic disproprtionation in GC/MS ...and in case of M-ALPHA-HMCA, also to #4.
#2 remains unknown.

P.S.
_{These compounds are so much larger that even a simple column chromatography will separate them. Also, Tosyl Chloride should (in theory) preferentially bind to M-ALPHA-HMCA so it should be possible to detect it that way or even remove it entirely.}

Apologies if this was already discussed before, but do these compounds not easily filter out with say, an acetone wash?