What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[psy997]

This is a silly example, but some people eat asparagus and their urine odor changes. Other people eat asparagus and have no change to their urine odor. It is due to a genetic variation. As has been suggested here before, maybe some people are more sensitive to certain impurities than other people.

Theoretically it would be possible that genetic variations could lead to differing rates of adaptation to the MDMA experience, all the way from never losing magic to losing magic quickly. Or, a genetic variation that affects speed of adaptation and then speed of returning to a pre-adapted state. Or something like that. I have no explicit knowledge of chemical mechanisms that could facilitate something like this, but I can't imagine it's so far fetched an idea so as to not be possible.

 

[indigoaura]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, @Negi, but the question is whether dosage does or does not improve the experience.

Typical "magic" MDMA improves/strengthens with an increased dose. If you have a low dosed pill, you take a second pill and you get where you need to be .
Subpar "meh" MDMA does not improve with an increased dose. If you take more, the tone of the experience does not change, although you might get more intense "meh" effects.

The individual who posted on this page about differing effects from pills only ate half or one pill as I recall. I would have to search for his post to confirm the details. He never increased the dose by taking a 2nd pill. He and his friend took the same pill and each had a different effect. So, in that situation, the question of whether it was or was not a variable dosage issue was not ever really answered. Also, it is worth pointing out that different individuals are going to have different ideal dosages to begin with, so it is possible that he never reached his ideal dose. However, we don't know, because he did not experiment with increasing the dosage. I will try to search for his post after this to confirm.

In one of the situations I specifically recall from my past, I had two pills with me at a concert. I took one and had a subpar reaction. I took the second one and the reaction did not improve or change. So, increasing dose did not improve the roll. Then, I got home, and I took a 3rd pill from a different batch and I started rolling. Was it dosage or was it product? I suppose the answer is somewhat unclear, but I did increase the dose with the original pills without improving the experience.

With the powder and crystals I have personally had access to more recently, increasing the dosage does not produce the desired effect. This is not to say that the "meh" effects of the product do not increase with an increased dose. For example, the forgetfulness may increase as the dose increases, but the tone of the experience does not shift from antisocial to social, or from negative to positive.

I should not have to take more than around 120 mg of MDMA to achieve the effects of MDMA. I have experimented with doses from 100 to 155 mg to start and have not achieved typical MDMA effects. I do not feel like it is particularly safe to increase the initial dose above that amount, because if 155 mg is not producing the effects of MDMA, then what am I actually taking? What residual contaminants am I also increasing by increasing that initial dose? We also know from looking at old data regarding pills that they did not usually contain more than 150 mg of MDMA, so it is not an issue of not achieving the same dosage as I achieved previously. Even half a pill used to start a light roll with the right vibe and increasing the dose just strengthened the experience.

 

[indigoaura]

I already apogalize for my bad english, but here is some background story. I have tried MDMA 5 times in 2 years before this roll with doses 100mg-200mg so I havent abused it. I've had 1 great and 1ok and 3 meh experiences before this and never had confirmed "Magic mdma" but I am very interested about this thread and want to tell my experience with those red-yellow pirelli's. I consumed those pills with ryybsnarcs and few other friends. I took little bit over half pill for initial dose and rest after 1.5hour mark. Comeup was really, really smooth, everything was so calm, peaceful and I felt so clean for all the time, euphoria, music appreciation, music felt and sound so wonderful, sharp and alive. Tactile enchantment and empathy, i never felt so much empathy from previous rolls, it was so real, so natural empathy and love. It felt like I was in some kind of love story for a whole roll. When I held hands with my friend, it felt like we had some kind of spiritual bond. everything felt incredible.(vicks inhalers smell so wonderfull) I literally was rolling my eyes back of my skull for whole peak :D I would say that it was magical experience and i want to quote shulgin "i am complete" . But why would I have so great experience from same pills that ryybsnarcs had? I really cant even imagine how roll would be any better than this was. 2 days after roll i felt drained, and tired. But after those 2 days, I had nice afterglow for almost a week. I know you guys are much more experienced than me, so was my experience really "magic"? because i really think so

So, here is the post in question. @Kvitamine and @RyybsNarcs were the contributors.

They each had ONE pill.

They each began by taking half or 3/4 of that one pill. They re-dosed with the remainder of the pill.

If their pills had different dosages per pill (as has been documented as possible due to mg contents noted on Drugs Data), then it is possible that @RyybsNarcs had a lower dose than @Kvitamine.

If @RyybsNarcs needs a higher dose to reach the desired effects than @Kvitamine, then that would also explain what happened.

If they had each taken a second pill and R had continued to have a meh time, but K had blown up into an even better time, then it would be more clear that the issue was a personal physiology issue rather than a product issue.

However, without that additional data, I don't feel that we have enough information to draw a conclusion about what happened here and whether it was a dosage issue or a personal physiology issue.

As has been stated here before, using pills for data is tricky because we do not really know what dosage each pill contains, so it is hard to make precise comparisons.

 

[G_Chem]

@Le Junk Thank you for posting again. Sometimes I just start to feel like I'm nuts, but it is good to hear from the people who have access to both and could have either experience depending on the product they use.

@Negi "Anyone remember when two people in this thread took a pill from the same bag and had meh vs magic experiences? The thread glossed over it pretty quickly but there seems to be a pattern here." Those were also two pills, and pills are sometimes not packed the same way or with the same dose, as evidenced by documented mg dosages in identical pills on Drugs Data.

I would like to know from that reddit poster what he means when he says his friends had a blast. Were they just fucked up? Did they talk about the experience at all? What was it like for them? Also, have there been times when they all had a bad roll, or is he the only one who has a bad roll when they have a good roll?

Some of those pupils look right to me on reddit, and some don't. My pupils on Saturday did not match those pics, after doses of 140 mg, 114 mg, and 90 mg. And, I have old pics of my pupils, so I know what they used to look like.

Based on what the guy on reddit is telling you, it would have to be something about an individual's physiology that varies from experience to experience. Or perhaps, an individual's sensitivity to an additive/impurity that not everyone has. Do you have any ideas or theories about what that could be? I have tried NAC, BPC-157, all kinds of vitamins, 5HTP, etc. etc. Never noticed any discernible difference.

This is a silly example, but some people eat asparagus and their urine odor changes. Other people eat asparagus and have no change to their urine odor. It is due to a genetic variation. As has been suggested here before, maybe some people are more sensitive to certain impurities than other people.

I would personally be more convinced that I am my problem if I had ever seen anyone just "balls to the wall" rolling on any of these meh batches, but I never have. Everyone I have seen has been equally as underwhelmed as me, and sometimes more underwhelmed. And, I just 100% don't buy set and setting as the explanation, because there have been times I have been thrilled, excited, and loving life and had the most meh experience ever (like Saturday), and other times in the past I have been miserable and feeling so shitty I thought I would not roll at all but experienced pure magic.

I was thinking about it yesterday though, and I do recall some "meh" pills from back in the day that looked okay on reagent tests. The difference back then was that I always had a few different kinds of pills laying around, so if one did not "do it" for me, I just popped a more familiar type of pill and took off from there.

That last paragraph I think applies to me and why I still haven’t ever gotten really familiar with a “meh” batch. Anytime I come across stuff like that, I’ve got 7-10 other batches to choose from.

Do those photos match the pupil dilation you expect though? Also I thought increasing the dose of mehDMA had no effect?

Those pupils are fairly in line with what I expect, just dosages seem a bit high in comparison but I can understand not everyone is eating high 90’s% purity product.


While I see your point I’d argue as well that subreddit might be taking a very narrow snapshot of the true reality of the scene. That sub is for folks who get a really good pupil pic and wanna show it off, but doesn’t show all the folks who took a pic and didn’t feel it was worth sharing.

Also looking at the time stamps it’s not nearly as often someone posts there compared to back when facial pics were allowed in the main MDMA reddit, there was like 3-5 a day at times.

-GC

 

[Biscuit]

But that’s where you’re incorrect. I’m the thread starter and if you read my original post, you will see that I still have access to the “magic”. And I’ve been rolling since the mid-80’s. Absolutely nothing has changed with these magic capsules I get. However, everything else out there nowadays (pills, crystals etc) that all lab test as pure MDMA are simply awful. It is not, I repeat, NOT set or setting. You have to quit giving that excuse to this modern day pure MDMA crap. It’s not just old users versus new users versus he said versus she said. There is an actual visual marker giveaway present in today’s crap versus the magic. Pupil dilation. All street ecstasy up until 2009 and the magic capsules I still have access to will completely dilate your pupils. And when I say dilate, I don’t mean slightly or 80%, I mean 99.5% of your eyeball is black pupil. There is no exception to this rule. And there never was until 2010. If the color of your eyes is not totally gone and your pupils aren’t completely black, you’re doing modern day MDMA junk I can assure you. Okay, back to the discussion...

I agree with every word of that and welcome back while I’m at it.

What cannot continued be glossed over is the massive increase in the dosage found in pills between the pre 2009/2010 era and the post 2010/2011 era. In the old days any tablet with not much more than 100mg was a wonderful ectstasy experience. No one needed anything like the 350mg “pills” widely circulating these days. You just can’t argue with that.

 

[G_Chem]

I agree with every word of that and welcome back while I’m at it.

What cannot continued be glossed over is the massive increase in the dosage found in pills between the pre 2009/2010 era and the post 2010/2011 era. In the old days any tablet with not much more than 100mg was a wonderful ectstasy experience. No one needed anything like the 350mg “pills” widely circulating these days. You just can’t argue with that.

This is a big reason I still hang around in here. I simply can’t believe some 13yr old U.K. kid can eat 300-1000mg in a night no problem, and someone like myself who’s been rolling longer than said kid has been alive who still only needs 120+40.

In regards to the pupil dilation subreddit, look at those doses they’re taking. The eyes that looked the most “right” had a whopping 1g dose next to the title.

Psy brings up some good points though, and I’ve too wondered on the genetic potential for loss of magic.

I guess I could be a case study, most of my family has tried MDMA and obviously we all share genetics to some extent. The only person who’s “lost the magic” in my family is one of my brothers but even then he still gets good effects it’s just not the “every stranger is my best friend” kind of thing.

I don’t believe based on what I’ve seen that loss of magic is the same thing we are seeing here. I’ve already discussed what I feelare the differences. Essentially loss of magic just turns MDMA more into a stimulant type drug, like taking Amphetamine but a bit better. Many reports from before 2010 say the same thing.

-GC

 

[user666]

I wanted to add this little anecdote about my recent "meh" experience on Saturday night.

Did you track your fasting blood glucose levels this time ?

 

[indigoaura]

Essentially loss of magic just turns MDMA more into a stimulant type drug, like taking Amphetamine but a bit better.

That was always what I read as well. I read that you lost many of the lovey dovey effects, but maintained the dopamine driven effects. I also never heard that eye dilation stopped, just that although your physical effects remained the same, the euphoria diminished. Meh does not feel like a stimulant though.

 

[indigoaura]

Did you track your fasting blood glucose levels this time ?

No, I did not, because I knew I planned to mix in weed and that seemed like an improper measurement.

 

[user666]

That was always what I read as well. I read that you lost many of the lovey dovey effects, but maintained the dopamine driven effects. I also never heard that eye dilation stopped,

Pupil dilation is mediated by the norepinephrine system. There is a large genetic variability ( 8-11% ) in its response.

 

[indigoaura]

Pupil dilation is mediated by the norepinephrine system. There is a large genetic variability ( 8-11% ) in its response.

I do not doubt that, but for someone who once had hugely dilated pupils and now does not, it does not seem like it would be a genetic factor. Genes like that would not change, right?

 

[user666]

Genes like that would not change, right?

Correct

 

[G_Chem]

Pupil dilation is mediated by the norepinephrine system. There is a large genetic variability ( 8-11% ) in its response.

This explains why most every stimulant has this effect. That said, serotonin has no effect? It seems like most psychedelics and empathogens that effect serotonin also dilate pupils. I imagine not all of them effect NE.

-GC

 

[user666]

That said, serotonin has no effect?

Yes, it has too, albeit not as strongly as adrenergic agonists . That is why SSRI antidepressants can cause slight Mydriasis.
All adrenergic agonists mimic the activity of the norepinephrine. Mydriasis can be induced by cholinergic agents, too.

In general, Mydriasis can be caused by two mechanisms:
1) suppression of the parasympathetic ocular nerve ( paralyses the iris sphincter muscle )
2) excitation of the sympathetic ocular nerve ( activates the iris dilator muscle )

This duality can be resolved by administration of certain eye drops which specifically disable one mechanism or the other.
I heard that ophthalmological USG can distinguish them too, but I have never seen it done.

 

[Negi]

No one needed anything like the 350mg “pills” widely circulating these days. You just can’t argue with that.

I simply can’t believe some 13yr old U.K. kid can eat 300-1000mg in a night no problem

So now magic MDMA didn't build any tolerance? There was never anybody at the raves back in the day who kept munching on pills all night?

Subpar "meh" MDMA does not improve with an increased dose. If you take more, the tone of the experience does not change, although you might get more intense "meh" effects.

In regards to the pupil dilation subreddit, look at those doses they’re taking. The eyes that looked the most “right” had a whopping 1g dose next to the title.

Does increasing the dose of mehDMA have effects or not?

What cannot continued be glossed over is the massive increase in the dosage found in pills between the pre 2009/2010 era and the post 2010/2011 era. In the old days any tablet with not much more than 100mg was a wonderful ectstasy experience. No one needed anything like the 350mg “pills” widely circulating these days. You just can’t argue with that.

If you look at reddit experience reports, 100mg is still a wonderful ecstasy experience. If you buy capsules they are still almost always sold as "one point" (100mg). If higher doses are required with current MDMA, why hasn't the dosage of capsules increased as well?

 

[indigoaura]

@Negi

I appreciate your posts and the way that you challenge the conversation, push it forward, and bring new perspectives. Sometimes, however, it feels like you are looking for a "gotcha" moment.

No one has ever denied the existence of tolerance. However, it seems odd that the "norm" for pill dosages has increased so much. I know this has been discussed at length already, and there is little need to go over it again. I get that it is cheap to make pills, etc. However, I see a lot of people talking about using a gram of molly in a night, and I hardly knew anyone who would consume that much MDMA amongst my old circle of ravers. Of course, there have always been those who experiment with heroic doses, but it seems very widespread now, even with newbies.

As for the meh effects, I don't know how else to explain it other than how I already explained it. I said, "Subpar "meh" MDMA does not improve with an increased dose. If you take more, the tone of the experience does not change, although you might get more intense "meh" effects."

I will try to explain again.

Tone/flavor is different than strength/intensity.

If I have a cup of water, and I put one drop of red food coloring into the glass of water, the color of the water will become more red. If I add more red food coloring, the water will get even more red. There will never be a moment where I add red food coloring to the water and the water suddenly becomes blue. It will always become more and more red.

If subpar/meh product is red food coloring, and water is the body, and MDMA is blue food coloring, then the same would be true.

Does increasing the meh have an effect? Yes, it increases the strength and intensity of the experience that you are having. It does NOT change the tone/flavor/color of the experience. It does not suddenly become a typical MDMA experience.

At least, that is my observation. Many other people in the forum have observed the same thing, and experimented with dosages in an attempt to see if it is a dosage issue.

As for those 100 mg capsules, have you seen the prices of those? Most of those vendors on the DW sell them for next to nothing. Not much more than 100 mg will fit in a small capsule. I don't know that the expectation is that a single capsule is used.

 

[Negi]

However, I see a lot of people talking about using a gram of molly in a night, and I hardly knew anyone who would consume that much MDMA amongst my old circle of ravers.

What was the price, availability and usage culture surrounding MDMA during that time? I've gone over this in the thread before. A key quote:

The price of alcohol hasn't dropped to nearly a 1/4 of what it once was at the same time that the bottles doubled in size (pill dosages going to over 200mg) and 1L jugs of pure alcohol became available (the ability to buy grams of powder MDMA).

I would recommend clicking through it and reading the discussion on the page.

Does increasing the meh have an effect? Yes, it increases the strength and intensity of the experience that you are having. It does NOT change the tone/flavor/color of the experience. It does not suddenly become a typical MDMA experience.

The other quote I linked there seemed to indicate that higher doses would give pupil dilation, which everyone in the thread has indicated is a key magic MDMA element that is always missing from mehDMA.

As for those 100 mg capsules, have you seen the prices of those? Most of those vendors on the DW sell them for next to nothing. Not much more than 100 mg will fit in a small capsule. I don't know that the expectation is that a single capsule is used.

That just matches the general decline in the price of MDMA at all quantity levels. And you can absolutely buy empty capsules of different sizes.

 

[indigoaura]

I would recommend clicking through it and reading the discussion on the page.

I have read every single page of this discussion from page 1-287.

Price does not change effect. If I had taken 1000 mg of MDMA in 2002 I would not have been able to walk. I may have blacked out. No amount of low prices would have changed that, or changed the fact that I got where I needed to be off 1-2 pills.

Sure, there are always kids who do foolish things. But, most responsible alcohol users measure their shots when they make their drinks. It isn't because of money, it is because nobody really enjoys getting blackout drunk. Achieving the correct state of "fucked up" makes the night more enjoyable. After you cross a certain line, what is the point?

The people posting pics of having taken 1000 mg of MDMA do not look 1000 mg of MDMA fucked up.

You are making the assumption that usage goes up because the price has dropped, but if that is true, then the effects would also go up along with usage. People should be MORE fucked up than they were before the usage escalated, not LESS fucked up than they were before the usage escalated.

As for the pupil dilation...

I am never going to take 1000 mg of "meh" product in an evening to see if my pupils dilate. Just not gonna happen. It does not feel safe. So, if pupils eventually dilate at heroic doses, I would not personally know. I can tell you that they don't dilate at around 350-400 mg of total consumption, but beyond that, I don't know. I can also tell you that they used to dilate for me after consuming 1/2 to 1 pill.

I think @G_Chem's point in pointing out the dosages is that we don't know if those people would have had pupil dilation at more reasonable/typical doses.

This research article establishes that a 125 mg dose of MDMA should cause mydriasis. - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22700038/
This article also states that 125 mg of MDMA causes mydriasis. - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-019-0569-3

Based on what these research articles are stating, mydriasis should be seen with 125 mg. It should not require 500 or 1000 mg of MDMA to produce mydriasis. Since some of the reddit users are often referencing heroic doses, it is impossible to know whether they experienced mydriasis at a 125 mg dose.

 

[indigoaura]

Interesting article:

α₁-Adrenergic receptors contribute to the acute effects of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine in humans - PubMed

Preclinical studies implicate a role for α₁-noradrenergic receptors in the effects of psychostimulants, including 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, "ecstasy"). The present study evaluated the effects of the α₁-noradrenergic receptor antagonist doxazosin on the acute pharmacodynamic and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[indigoaura]

Pretreatment with inhibitors of the dopamine or norepinephrine reuptake transporter (DAT or NET), 5-HT(2A) or α-β adrenergic receptor antagonists or antipsychotics prior to MDMA exposure can also decrease one or more MDMA-induced physiological and/or subjective effects.

Here is another interesting article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23030234/