What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[Jmoda]

So his speculation is that back in the day people were used to getting MDMA + (meth)amphetamine combination pills. Lower doses of meth would be overwhelmed by the MDMA and not register in reagent tests conducted at the time.

Wow. Im just sitting here with my popcorn for this one.

Next test up: can one of the old-schoolers take some meh with a very low does of meth/amph.

 

[Negi]

Just to have some rough notes of what he said related to this for people who don't listen to podcasts:

He also mentioned a few other possibilities (just as an offhand list).

- Isomers (apparently L-MDMA is more stimulating and less empathogenic).
- Trace elements inside MDMA produced from safarole.
- People have created structural changes within their brain over long periods of using MDMA.

He mentions taking 120mg of PMK produced MDMA and being very impressed (half of one of the original orange Teslas).
He's never taken anything that tested as MDMA that didn't feel like MDMA. He specifically mentions that the subjective effects he feels have slowly lowered over time, he thinks the first 4-10 times you take MDMA in your life are probably unique "When you've gone skydiving 500 times it's still exhilarating, [...] but you don't capture the magic of the early experiences". He strongly suspects that's some of what people are feeling.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

But that has been discounted i have rolled over 150 + times maybe over 200 i lost count i abused it heavy and yet i can still feel very strong effects of high quality mdma like those early days. the 10 times was put out by ann shuglin to stop college kids killing their brain cells during college and abusing mdma.

 

[Negi]

I'll just repeat what I said the last time this came up:

It seems to be pretty clear that individual genetics/biology plays a very significant role in tolerance, "losing the magic" and even stuff like comedowns. This makes any discussion and advice related to the matter quite complicated. It also tends to focus communities and discussion in certain ways, because individuals who quickly lose the effects or have horrific comedowns are much less likely to stick around in the rave scene/MDMA discussion forums.

the 10 times was put out by ann shuglin to stop college kids killing their brain cells during college and abusing mdma.

I don't think so, at that point in the interview she was talking about the therapeutic use of MDMA. Here's the full context of the quote that is used for the three month rule:

Q: How many patients have you worked with? Do you know how they feel now?
Ann: The people who stayed in touch all seemed to have benefitted from it, but that's perhaps because they were very carefully chosen. MDMA (which is not a psychedelic) and the psychedelic drugs should never be used with people who are psychotic. For two years I collaborated with a hypnotherapist, and we worked only with people who were what you might call neurotic. They had already done their primary psychological work with the hypnotherapist, and these were people she felt, when they had finished that work, they were ready to go further and deeper. The only thing that has happened with everyone I know who has used MDMA a great deal is that if they used it more than 4 times a year, they developed a tolerance, and after a few years, it begins to not work for them. They want to get back the magic of the first experience, and that is a mistake, because - as Sasha likes to say -- "You never step into the same river water twice. " I found out, for myself, that using MDMA more often than four times a year was not wise. I used MDMA as a writing drug for about a year. Once a week, I would do a great deal of writing using MDMA; it was a wonderful experience for me to use it that way, but I discovered after that kind of use that I had to go up in dosage to get an effect, and the effect became less and less the magical insight; it was more and more the stimulant effects, and for many years now, I have been totally unable to use it. Not only because now it is illegal, but because I used it once a week, and that was too often. Nobody knew that, then, but now I would advise anyone who wants to use MDMA not to take it more than 4 times a year if you want to continue to get the best effects from it, otherwise you risk losing its effects entirely and permanently.

And from what she said in the rest of that interview she wasn't trying to discourage MDMA use:

Q: How do you explain the actual use of ecstasy? Do you feel it's corrupted?
Ann: If I had to choose, I would much rather that young people use MDMA than alcohol. Alcohol is a seriously dangerous drug, and MDMA, if it is used with common sense and some amount of information, is relatively safe. If you're dancing all night, you have to be sure you stay hydrated, and not too hydrated, and you should always give yourself a little time out to rest,

 

[Jmoda]

He specifically mentions that the subjective effects he feels have slowly lowered over time, he thinks the first 4-10 times you take MDMA in your life are probably unique "When you've gone skydiving 500 times it's still exhilarating, [...] but you don't capture the magic of the early experiences". He strongly suspects that's some of what people are feeling.

From my own personal experience, I now think that a great way to circumvent this is by mixing different/new low doses of psychs with your rolls. Each time I have done this the experience is out of this world (even better than the first time), but it too seems to lose its "magic", until of course you change up the sprinkles on your cupcake. There should be enough types of sprinkles however to really ever avoid losing that experience, perhaps just an inconvenience of having the hurdle of having to go find the different ones.

 

[user666]

So his speculation is that back in the day people were used to getting MDMA + (meth)amphetamine combination pills. Lower doses of meth would be overwhelmed by the MDMA and not register in reagent tests conducted at the time.

There was also a theory, that MDMA+Meth pills were responsible for the extreme sexual stimulation experienced by some people.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Sorry to just barge in here after months of absence, but I've finally gotten around to self-testing a batch of MDMA that I got in February. Alas, it isn't the previously-mentioned suspected proppa stuff that I was hoping to get around Christmas, but after running every reagent I could buy (as well as a purity test, and a fentanyl test, of course) it's testing as not only MDMA but pretty high purity (as in content % ).

One problem: I can't be sure it's not BZP or TFMPP as these two are still possibilities from the reagent tests I was able to do, though the purity test suggest their not present as it presents differently with these two compounds in solution.

I feel fairly confident in its cleanliness that I will do an in vivo test with three subjects including my damn self shortly, report on the effects, and then send it off to the LCMS/GCMS testing available at a local hospital.

For reference:

Mandelin: straight to black
Marquis: to black in <2s
Liebermann: straight to black
Mecke: a very fast dark blue/black in <2s
Simon's: to dark blue in <2s
Froehde: straight to very dark purple/black (possible 5/6-APB?)
Hoffmann: no change
Ehrlich: no change
Folin: slow fade to a light but bright dark pink/red (according to my colour chart, a bit darker than the reaction from MDMA should be, pointing at either BZP or TFMPP..though BZP looks like it would run darker)
MDMA purity test: showed dark brown on top, no colour on bottom with no residue (which suggests high purity and no piperazines)

I'd appreciate any feedback on my test results before in vivo testing. Cheers.

Edit: Does the Mecke reaction rule out piperazines?
Edit Edit: Ok, apparently the Froehde reaction rules out piperazines

 

[Negi]

I will do an in vivo test with three subjects including my damn self shortly, report on the effects, and then send it off to the LCMS/GCMS testing available at a local hospital.

If lab testing is available and you have any sort of concern why on earth wouldn't you do it first?

 

[SunriseChampion]

If lab testing is available and you have any sort of concern why on earth wouldn't you do it first?

I'm obviously not too concerned.

Believe me, I'm well past the age of reckless abandon.

 

[indigoaura]

So his speculation is that back in the day people were used to getting MDMA + (meth)amphetamine combination pills. Lower doses of meth would be overwhelmed by the MDMA and not register in reagent tests conducted at the time.

Ironically, my pills at the time were literally sent to Dancesafe for GCMS testing and they were NOT MDMA + meth. Somebody let me on this podcast...lol.

 

[indigoaura]

Welcome back @SunriseChampion! Which purity test are you using for the purity? I know I have seen one before, but I can't recall what it was called.

I got some new product. In appearance, it is a slightly cream soda colored clear crystal. I think it is probably the clearest crystal I have seen, and they are small crystals and not this fused together stuff. When I hold one up to the light, I can see through it. It is not 100% devoid of color though, there is a definite hue. However, it does not have the same tone to the hue that I typically see in some of these crystals. There is less red/brown to the color and it is a more neutral tone. I will try to get a picture, but I really don't want to use my cell phone for such purposes and my camera does not do the best job at capturing the colors. But, I will give it a go.

I just ran the Marquis and Simon's tests so far. Marquis definitely turned purple then black, but it held on to that purple tone. @G_Chem, there was definitely NO blue or indigo to the final color but it was a violet black. I ran an additional Marquis test on the last product I used to compare the color tone and they were the same.

As for smell, there was absolutely NO smell of any kind. No chemical smell, no safrole smell, nothing.

I will probably send it off to a lab at some point, but that will take me a little while.

Also, for a variety of reasons, I won't be testing it out any time soon, but wanted to share the description of the appearance and will post some pics if I can.

 

[draculic acid69]

So his speculation is that back in the day people were used to getting MDMA + (meth)amphetamine combination pills. Lower doses of meth would be overwhelmed by the MDMA and not register in reagent tests conducted at the time.

I've had ketamine,meth and xtc all in the one pill and a marquis/mandelin test clearly shows all three colours.
Meth in mdma pills produce a very clearly noticeable effect that anyone with mdma experience can clarify from straight mdma

 

[G_Chem]

Ironically, my pills at the time were literally sent to Dancesafe for GCMS testing and they were NOT MDMA + meth. Somebody let me on this podcast...lol.

That’s what I’m saying, if dude ever needs someone to interview lol

I haven’t listened yet but I disagree with the assertion l-MDMA is (less empathogenic and more stimulating) that’s actually completely false.

All research shows d-MDMA to be more stimulating than l isomer. If we look at closely related phenethylamines we see a similar pattern, for instance both meth and amphetamine which are stimulants are pretty much nearly inactive as the l isomer.

He clearly hasn’t really done the research and is just jumping on the old isomer bandwagon cuz it’s easy.

Again I very much respect the man, but frankly he’s not chemist he’s just a raver that created a good harm reduction program.

Get me on there and I’ll describe the varying MDMA chemistry trends over the years, I’ll give factual information on the two enatiomers, as well as my experience going strong in the dance and MDMA scene for ~15+yrs...

-GC

 

[Negi]

I've had ketamine,meth and xtc all in the one pill and a marquis/mandelin test clearly shows all three colours.

If the quantities are low enough they won't show. Here's an example where where a smaller amount of PMA isn't detectable to Marquis, Mandelin or Mecke because the effects from MDMA mask it. It's one reason I'm skeptical when people try and find a reagent result that will indicate "meh" or "magic". If it is due to trace elements/drugs it's very unlikely the results from them would be noticeable over the general MDMA result.

 

[G_Chem]

All drugs are different, in the case of PMA yes it can be impossible to spot in a mixed pill. Meth on the other hand in sufficient quantities will show on Marquis as it reacts a second sooner with the orangey before going dark.

That said, I’m not sure one could spot “trace” amounts which with meth even trace amounts will alter the experience. I personally enjoy adding in .5-2mg d-meth and IMO that little dose greatly alters the experience.

But Indigo got her shit lab tested back in the day... I trust her word on it.

It’s my belief actually that the surge of meth in pills from 2002-3 to 07 was actually due to the synthesis change from Leuckart. The Leuckart gave a speedier/dancier product which was lacking when many chemists began using al/Hg or borohydride/cyan reductions frequently touted on the Hive.

To compensate I believe some pressers started using meth to give back the kick it was now missing for the older users expecting that old speedy vibe.

Anyone that disagrees the 90’s Leuckart MDMA was different look at videos from back then with literally everyone nearly burning a hole in the floor their feet are moving so fast. Eyes are super wide, gurning is next level, the pills back then by today’s standards look speedy if we were to compare.

Music is a great indicator of the mindstate of a person, of a generation, notice how the 90’s was all fairly fast paced genres but once mid 00’s rolled around the music bpm and overall vibe began to mellow.


I’d also be curious though to see if anyone who’s got meh to try a little meth or amp on the side in low doses to see if that spices things up.

-GC

 

[SunriseChampion]

I have no idea what the hell the solution is, @indigoaura....I got all my testing gear from TestKitPlus.com.

 

[Kaden_Nite]

If the quantities are low enough they won't show. Here's an example where where a smaller amount of PMA isn't detectable to Marquis, Mandelin or Mecke because the effects from MDMA mask it. It's one reason I'm skeptical when people try and find a reagent result that will indicate "meh" or "magic". If it is due to trace elements/drugs it's very unlikely the results from them would be noticeable over the general MDMA result.

Reagents are pretty good for telling you whether your pills and powders contain what they are supposed to, especially if you can narrow results down using a few different reagents.

They are hopelessly inconsistent for trying to identify impurities though in my experience.

I've had blue swirls turn purple black. Then retested the same pill with the same reagent in the same way and it goes straight to black, or leaves a greenish edge this time.

I know there are ways to produce more specific and consistent results using those reagents but the conventional EZ-test method really just gives an indication that your drugs contain some percentage of what they are being sold as.

I certainly recommend their use to people when buying drugs from dealers.

 

[majk13]

Found this, dont ask me where

I see a lot of people new on ******* selling MDMA for ridiculous low prices. Be warned this is NOT MDMA.

Those are research chemicals from china that can be bought legal for less then 1 euro the gram. TEST WHAT YOU BUY! Or it is very bad quality what we call coca-cola because of the brown colour caused by contaminated product! Have a look around doesn't it seems like there is some weird shit being sold as QUALITY MDMA??

BROWN, YELLOW, BLACK and even PINK colored MDMA!! It looks like a fucking RAINBOW ! Well I will let you in on some knowledge from MDMA capital of the world A.K.A. Holland! Call this some insider information if you like. Over here we call SHIT MDMA COCA-COLA, because it has its BROWNISH/YELLOWISH color due to MDP2P contamination! Its basically shit thats unsellable on the dutch market!!

Whats going on with PINK MDMA I can hear you ask? Well this happens when an impure solution gets over gassed during a certain chemical reaction in the MDMA cooking process. This can be fixed by taking the time to recrystallize.

However as time = money some cooks rush the job. Honestly I do not know what they fucked up to get BLACK product but that shit cant be right...

If you want PURE MDMA you need to look for something thats as close to WHITE as possible. pure MDMA is slightly OFF WHITE colored, like a light CHAMPAGNE but if you are buying where some MDMA is YELLOW PISS colored you should look for something WHITE! So the WHITER the product is, the BETTER the quality! Also when you look at pictures watch out for OLD MDMA, you can recognize it from the shards having WHITE SCRATCH marks all over them.

Sometimes its even so bad that it hides the color!! Also a tell is the shards having a ROUNDED shape due too AGE and being handled so much!

 

[TripSitterNZ]

that is my experince aswell, always avoid the overcooked black shit and i see those cola mdma try be sold for cheap a few times that were imported. Nice white crystals are the best but very rare. Alot of people import brown mdma here usually has alot of mdp2p oil in it wash it out with acetone and you lose over 20% weight. Grey mdma is average but still got that love. Most stuff here is moon rock or champagne.

Idk about old mdma though, I have stored mdma for up to a year and it was just as good as when i got it.

 

[mrsmokeweed]

I found some reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal shit here in the USA cheap af too. White, can we post pictures? It gave me the feels, which I haven;t had from MDMA since 2013? I got it from MDA a few months ago, but MDA is still fire. I really think some people just know what they're doing and some don't when it comes to making MDMA. As the poster a few post above referenced, Molly is EVERYWHERE now compared to even 10 years ago. And, there's very very few domestic (USA) made pills. Thus people take their shitty molly put 300mg into a pill and boom, everyone thinks its the cats meow.,