What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[G_Chem]

They mean NN Dimethylamino Methylenedioxy Amphetamine, MDMA with an extra methyl which is very much reduced activity.

I though MDMA with an extra methyl was referred to as MDDMA, Methylenedioxydimethylamphetamine. This naming has been used since the Shulgin days so unlikely to have changed

Edit sorry Shulgin called it MDDM.

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

After further review of the study you are right, now this is jogging my memory and I think I came to similar conclusions years ago after actually carefully reading. My memory must be horrible from all this MDMA

That said, the n-formyl-MDMA is the one found in any quantity anyways. Ideas on activity forvthat one?

I’ve heard “nitro-MDA” to be active in a stimulant kind of way, obviously this probably correlated little but it’s the only substituted Mdxx type compound I’ve seen assayed.

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

It appears it is indeed likely active!!!

Formetorex - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is the n-formal intermediate for amphetamine in Leuckart said to be active.

While not studies look at how much N-formyl MDMA is found a study on PMA/PMMA found around 20% so extrapolation from that we can assume the old Leuckart MDMA had at least 10-20% too.

There’s the smoking gun for Leuckart, how I never spotted this n-formyl-Amphetamine wiki before I won’t know.

“Formetorex (INN), also known as formetamide or N-formylamphetamine, is an amphetamine described as an anorectic which does not appear to have ever been marketed.”


Edit- This study goes over amphetamine and methamphetamine purity in the 80’s when they were both primarily made via Leuckart.

Leuckart-specific Impurities in Amphetamine and Methamphetamine Seized in Norway | Office of Justice Programs

www.ncjrs.gov

Notice how Amphetamine reached purity of 99% but meth only tops out at 72%. That’s because Leuckart works better for primary amines over secondary amines.

Anecdotal reports say the same for MD amphetamine species. So we can assume MDMA in the 90’s was almost certainly impure.

Notice how 99% meth samples contain the n-formyl intermediate but only 79% for amphetamine.

With all this we can be almost certain of a number of things...

1. MDMA in the 90’s was made via Leuckart.
2. Secondary amines made via Leuckart such as PMMA, Meth, and MDMA all are less pure and almost certainly contain at least some n-formyl intermediate.
3. While very little research has been conducted, the n-formyl intermediate of amphetamine has been found to be an active anorectic even with its own pharmaceutical name.

Now if anyone finds info on pharmacological data for n-formyl-amp or any other n-formyl intermediate I’ll kiss you.

-GC

 

[Jmoda]

It appears it is indeed likely active!!!

Formetorex - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is the n-formal intermediate for amphetamine in Leuckart said to be active.

While not studies look at how much N-formyl MDMA is found a study on PMA/PMMA found around 20% so extrapolation from that we can assume the old Leuckart MDMA had at least 10-20% too.

There’s the smoking gun for Leuckart, how I never spotted this n-formyl-Amphetamine wiki before I won’t know.

“Formetorex (INN), also known as formetamide or N-formylamphetamine, is an amphetamine described as an anorectic which does not appear to have ever been marketed.”


Edit- This study goes over amphetamine and methamphetamine purity in the 80’s when they were both primarily made via Leuckart.

Leuckart-specific Impurities in Amphetamine and Methamphetamine Seized in Norway | Office of Justice Programs

www.ncjrs.gov

Notice how Amphetamine reached purity of 99% but meth only tops out at 72%. That’s because Leuckart works better for primary amines over secondary amines.

Anecdotal reports say the same for MD amphetamine species. So we can assume MDMA in the 90’s was almost certainly impure.

Notice how 99% meth samples contain the n-formyl intermediate but only 79% for amphetamine.

With all this we can be almost certain of a number of things...

1. MDMA in the 90’s was made via Leuckart.
2. Secondary amines made via Leuckart such as PMMA, Meth, and MDMA all are less pure and almost certainly contain at least some n-formyl intermediate.
3. While very little research has been conducted, the n-formyl intermediate of amphetamine has been found to be an active anorectic even with its own pharmaceutical name.

Now if anyone finds info on pharmacological data for n-formyl-amp or any other n-formyl intermediate I’ll kiss you.

-GC

Then what is the solution for oldschool mdma, mix today's mdma with stims?

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Then what is the solution for oldschool mdma, mix today's mdma with stims?

Nah. Even when oldskool MDMA was mixed with stimulants, it only enhanced the stimulant effects whilst diminishing the empathogenic qualities. So mixing meh and stims is not going to polish that turd imo...

 

[Jmoda]

Nah. Even when oldskool MDMA was mixed with stimulants, it only enhanced the stimulant effects whilst diminishing the empathogenic qualities. So mixing meh and stims is not going to polish that turd imo...

But what if we mix it with the aformentioned substances like dmmda/formetorex

 

[G_Chem]

So as Vektor said, DMMDA as in the case of the study is not the same DMMDA I linked at first. But as he said, it should have lessened activity overall.

The only way to get your hands on n-formyl-MDxx would be to synthesize til right before the last hydrolysis step of the Leuckart. In other words, not easy to get anc then you’d have unlimited amounts of Leuckart MDMA anyways.

Now in regards to my first comment, I got a message a long while back on another platform from someone who had obtained MDMA that contained also MDA and MDDMA (aka DMMDA) in decent enough amounts. They seemed to respond very well to this product, but MDA in there muddies up the results a bit. Let’s say it didn’t hurt none.

Edit- Thinking more is n-formyl-mdma possible via MDMA treated with Formic acid? @vecktor

-GC

 

[Negi]

It's frustrating how pretty much none of the papers I have looked at give any direct information about the quantities of impurities in samples. I'm having to try and read the information from GC diagrams.

Here's one from a 2002 paper, where only a small amount of n-formyl-mdma (peak 23) seems present:

Here's one from a 2006 paper: MDMA is peak 15, n-formyl-mdma is peak 36. Unfortunately not scaled enough to let us see the ratio vs MDMA.

Edit:
From a 2008 paper:

 

[mrsmokeweed]

So that shit is the real deal holyfield. I had a set of very emotional days after using, hadn't had that in ages. Scooping up more tomorrow!

 

[G_Chem]

It's frustrating how pretty much none of the papers I have looked at give any direct information about the quantities of impurities in samples. I'm having to try and read the information from GC diagrams.

Here's one from a 2002 paper, where only a small amount of n-formyl-mdma (peak 23) seems present:

Here's one from a 2006 paper: MDMA is peak 15, n-formyl-mdma is peak 36. Unfortunately not scaled enough to let us see the ratio vs MDMA.

Edit:
From a 2008 paper:

Now you deserve a good job Negi.

Those are indeed interesting because it shows the Leuckart was in use longer than I thought.

I’m beginning to change my perspective on when exactly the Leuckart went out of fashion. It’s becoming obvious that while certain circles began changing over in the late 90’s, certain more established organizations such as those found in the EU likely held to tradition a bit longer.

Since lots of MDMA is exported from here to other parts of the world that can obviously confuse things more as some circles in other random areas will also still be used to this synth product.

How reliable is it though to compare peaks? I thought more was needed than that.

I know what you mean though, I’ll hunt for the one ref I talk about regarding PMMA Leuckart impurities as they do talk of percent quantities.

-GC

 

[opposable-thumbs]

So that shit is the real deal holyfield. I had a set of very emotional days after using, hadn't had that in ages. Scooping up more tomorrow!

Did you get it locally or DN?

 

[Negi]

Those are indeed interesting because it shows the Leuckart was in use longer than I thought.

I’m beginning to change my perspective on when exactly the Leuckart went out of fashion. It’s becoming obvious that while certain circles began changing over in the late 90’s, certain more established organizations such as those found in the EU likely held to tradition a bit longer.

Since lots of MDMA is exported from here to other parts of the world that can obviously confuse things more as some circles in other random areas will also still be used to this synth product.

Here's another one from 2008, from someone's PHD thesis:

How reliable is it though to compare peaks? I thought more was needed than that.

I've found at least one paper where it seems to be used to judge quantities.

It's not exact but it certainly seems to correlate well.

Here's a bonus from it for your n-formyl-amphetamine theory.

 

[G_Chem]

Truly good work man, the past few are ones I certainly haven’t seen before...

In that analysis of the amphetamine pill we see when comparing to amphetamine content about a ~20% (rough math) n-formyl impurity. That correlated perfectly with the PMMA Leuckart article I saw which gave about similar amounts.

Also that Malta Guys Thesis is a literal gold mine. I think I’ve seen it once before but got intimidated by the 350 something pages. That said...

Folks!!! This man actually tested enatiometric ratios on the pills from 2006-11 in that area!

And guess what? I’ve always been saying... Every single pill was nearly 50/50 on the isomers. There was slight variation of a few percent but not enough to account for this. Interesting though that they weren’t exactly 50/50, and it seems possible one could have a batch more skewed than we see in this particular research.

I’d bet one could likely feel one pill that has 45/55 S/R and one that is 55/45 S/R. While not much difference, this would probably change the dosage of the product by 15mg. Which falls perfectly in line with the slight variations in good product I’ve felt over the years.

The chart is on page 225, Negi I’m an idiot with computers could you post that? Or anyone?

After reading this more he found n-formyl-MDMA in 36% of the samples. Meaning Leuckart was still fairly active during the 00’s in some areas after reviewing more literature, although definitely on the downslope.

I’d love to see some illicit sample analysis from the US during the 00’s or 10’s showing impurity profiles.

And finally, I can now conclude n-acetyl-MDMA is also a product of the “formamide” Leuckart as I always thought it was a relic from the acetamide version.

Lots of good info.

Here’s in a nutshell...

1.) The likelihood of enatiometric excess is slim to none. The guy tested a few of the ‘11 Lacoste’s which were part of the “new generation” of pills.

2.) Leuckart lasted in certain areas longer than late 90’s, but it’s possible due to its waning popularity that many areas lost it sooner than others.

3.) N-formyl intermediate is very possible to be found in content of up to 20%. It is active. What n-formyl-mdma does though I haven’t a clue.

-GC

 

[Negi]

Here you go:

Batch five was seized in 2006, batch 45 in 2011.

Edit: I would recommend checking out Table 5.8, it's on page 229

 

[G_Chem]

Something I just noticed was the Lacoste’s do actually sway quite in the R isomer direction... Relatively.

I’m wondering if these slight variation might matter more than we realize. Again not saying this is the cause of “meh” but looking at just that small sample there...

The Lacoste with 46.51/53.49 vs the Question Mark at 52.95/47.05

S-MDMA is active 60-120mg, R-MDMA barely active at 160-200mg, and racemic is a tad higher than S-MDMA.

I’ve heard that with racemic methamphetamine the l-meth (aka R-Meth) can act as an MAOI. Looking at the above info I get the impression R-MDMA does something similar.

This would mean that there may be interactions taking place that are far from linear and may be effected by the slight variations shown above.

IMO These variations (as I said before) give that difference of product that hits intense with a quick comeup, a solid peak and then drops off right at 4 hours VS product which takes a bit longer to get going but lasts longer, wavier, the type of product which feels like it’s still lingering 7 hours later.

-GC

 

[Jmoda]

The question is, can the leuckart be done en masse with whats available today? I am assuming no right? (Ie, pmk glycidate) Are there routes where it could? Whatabout the helional->mda route?

 

[G_Chem]

The question is, can the leuckart be done en masse with whats available today? I am assuming no right? (Ie, pmk glycidate) Are there routes where it could? Whatabout the helional->mda route?

It can.

But... it’s all about yields and purity. While us rollers may find a little extra n-formyl-MDMA to be nice, to a chemist that’s just an impurity that needs to be ridden of.

Then, even with the best technique it’s only good for 60-70% yields, and these take time to perfect. While hydrogenation and cyano/borohydride can easily get 95+%. More often yields average 30-40% for Leuckart.

Plus as vector pointed out, DMMDA (aka MDDMA) is a possible impurity due to dimethylformamide being an impurity in methylformamide. Which is less active than MDMA.

That said it seems DMMDA isn’t always present in Leuckart MDMA whereas the n-formyl-MDMA is..

The only reason Leuckart lasted as long as it did, is because it’s easy and it’s scaleable. Old EU Bees used to do up 100’s of kilos in one go.

A quick look we see the following on Drugs Data made via Leuckart..

Amphetamine, Canada

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #2949 - YCP Speed, 2949 (m)

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result

www.drugsdata.org

Fake 2cb, Mexico

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8354 - Pink Powder, 8354 (m)

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result

www.drugsdata.org

Fake X/Meth Bomb, NY

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #6044 - Green Superman, 6044 (m)

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result

www.drugsdata.org

Notice how the second one contains MDMA amongst a conglomerate of other drugs. Also notice how a majority is acety-MDMA, 5:1 to MDMA.

In the fake x/meth bomb sample the intermediate to meth is equal.

It’s obvious that some chemists aren’t too good at the final hydrolysis step. Which could leave an altered product.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

I have been saying throughout this thread that I suspect what was going around in Houston from 2000 to 2004 was Leuckart. I know it was imported and not made locally, and as I have posted about before, a major bust in the area broke up the importation ring. @G_Chem , the effects that we typically had were a combo of that fast and rushy comeup plus the longer, wavy roll. If you did not start to feel it within 30 minutes, it was almost always bunk. Common knowledge in my social circle was that the pills that took longer to hit (45 min and beyond) were actually MDA.

@Negi , great stuff. These charts are all really interesting.

 

[psy997]

Just for reference,

I've had stuff from Denver that looks just like that, but with a bit more of a blueish grey tint, that was super Meh for me. Interesting.

 

[Negi]

The Lacoste with 46.51/53.49 vs the Question Mark at 52.95/47.05

The interesting thing is that both of those have the exact same impurity profile.