What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[F.U.B.A.R.]

any notable difference in your (or anyone's?) comedown experience with meh and magic?

I dont really get comedowns at all. The most I get is a headache a day or two after - especially with the meh, but I think this is mainly down to the redoses I take in a vain attempt at enhancing the experience (never works). What I dont get with the meh is an afterglow...

 

[ageingpartyfiend]

I dont really get comedowns at all. The most I get is a headache a day or two after - especially with the meh, but I think this is mainly down to the redoses I take in a vain attempt at enhancing the experience (never works). What I dont get with the meh is an afterglow...

insanely jealous tbh - I get a week on hell on earth (mentally and physically) after mdma and have done since my early 40's, meh or magic.

however that's not limited to mdma, I also suffer terribly after dopaminergics too now, so I guess it's pretty much over for me, which is no bad thing considering I've had a (on and off) 35 year run

that's why I just flat-out won't risk taking meh...

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

insanely jealous tbh - I get a week on hell on earth (mentally and physically) after mdma and have done since my early 40's, meh or magic.

however that's not limited to mdma, I also suffer terribly after dopaminergics too now, so I guess it's pretty much over for me, which is no bad thing considering I've had a (on and off) 35 year run

that's why I just flat-out won't risk taking meh...

Alcohol is your friend. :D

(I also very rarely get hangovers...)

 

[draculic acid69]

So in that poll most people are voting B or C (3-4 hours) as the “end of the roll” yet the timeline graph obviously shows 25% effects roughly still at 4 hours finally dropping to baseline at 6 hours much more in line with what it should be.

If anything that thread further proves me point, what many users say is the end of the roll doesn’t compute with the data.

IMO a roll ends 5-6 hours post dosing. I can’t understand based on both my own experiences and others around me how anyone could say they’re completely done 2-4 hours after.

-GC

I'd say 100mg magic easily gives a 4-6hr experience.2-3hrs is very short.not typical of a single mdma dose

 

[psy997]

What dose would you take for that, and do you normally have a redose?

I don't normally redose. Dosage that leads to this duration is as follows (and includes pretty much every magic experience I've ever had)

Oral: 75-135mg | usual dose is 125mg | I've never gone higher than 135mg
Insufflated: 50-65mg
Rectal: 40-60mg

Typing this out, I realize its possible my low dose rectal experiences didn't last this long, it's been 5 or so years, and I writhed alone on my bed in ecstacy the whole time, so don't have anything to remember duration by. But, I was extremely surprised the first time I came down at 3/4hrs, which was after my rectal use, so I'm inclined to think my rectal experiences weren't too freakishly short, whereas MehDMA is freakishly short every time.

 

[G_Chem]

No, the graph was the main part of the question. That's why the different options are labelled with the letter positions on the graph. Also looking at the graph again I misread it in my other posts (and also missed the giant numbers added onto it). Most people had the length of the roll as 3-4 hours (with more choosing 4) rather than 2-3 hours.

Your right but now that I look at that poll it’s so poorly structured, he shouldn’t have labeled each letter with what he felt were the effects at each given hour, that pigeon holes the poller into essentially conforming to his view of the MDMA experience.

His use of the “mostly back to normal” at 4 hours despite 25% effects is clearly bias towards his particular view of the experience (which he may very well be versed with meh.) Extremely poorly done and frankly almost useless beyond the graph.

The fact of the matter is, the majority of the data out there supports my statements. Despite my initial misinterpretation of the poll and it’s obviously bias nature, it’s still odd how the majority of pollers said 3-4 hours when clearly the graph shows it’s not done at 3-4 hours.

I’d like to finish with that I always felt there was 2 kinds of MDMA (both “magic”) which gave slightly varying durations and peaks. I’ve talked about these before. There’s product which hits 30-45min in comes up quick and then gives a nice solid plateau of a peak where suddenly 4 hours later you drop off quick (this may be what a lot of modern folks are getting idk) and then other product which acts more like the Erowid graph where you feel like your coming up up up for about an hour finally peaking at 90-120min, this stuff is wavier but longer lasting. There’s strong residuals often lasting the whole night, which makes good for a night of dancing but not feeling stimmed.

Before anyone says, this product has been tested with 6 different reagents, it ain’t MDA. It must come down to the small amount of impurities or maybe polymorphism we don’t quite understand.

-GC

 

[Negi]

it’s still odd how the majority of pollers said 3-4 hours when clearly the graph shows it’s not done at 3-4 hours.

At 4 hours it might not be dead baseline, but the effects are less than 1/4 of what they were at the peak. That's a very noticeable decline to people and I can see why they might call it the "start of the comedown" rather than "the roll continuing".

 

[somnilicious]

At 4 hours it might not be dead baseline, but the effects are less than 1/4 of what they were at the peak. That's a very noticeable decline to people and I can see why they might call it the "start of the comedown" rather than "the roll continuing".

I agree with a lot of your comments concerning subjective perception of the duration, especially this one.

During my magic rave years 98-01 I mostly considered my rolls to last 4hrs. Even though I still felt effects 6-8hrs. The later portion I always considered the comedown. Usually at around 3.25-3.5hrs in I would have a moment when I could tell the effects had plateaued and I would be starting the decline. After the 4hr point the subjective euphoria would be so stark in contrast when compared to just an hour earlier that even though I was still experiencing the roll I would have subjectively considered the experience to be over. This had more to do with a changed subjective baseline of euphoria as perceived by myself than the actual experience.

The psychological change of knowing that I was coming down would usually lead me to conclude that the pleasurable part of the experience was over after the 4hr mark even though I still very much felt the roll. It was a manifestation of my new baseline state of reference for euphoria that would have led me to state the 4hr mark as the end of my roll.

This could have been altered with a properly placed redose but if you had asked me if I rolled longer than 4hrs off a single dose my answer would have been no and even the change beginning around the 3hr point led me to conclude that the "magic" portion lasted 3-3.5hrs. Of course I would still be getting waves of euphoria and would be using all the tricks to enhance or extend the magic portion but I can easily see how some people state the duration of the roll as 3-4hrs simply because of the psychological shift in perception that happens when one begins the decline.

It's as if the "magic" is shattered once the veil is slightly lifted and the stark contrast of the plateau and the decline lead one to perceive the experience as having mostly concluded even they still very much feel the effects for several more hours. This shortened perception of the euphoric effects worsened over time as I would almost began to anticipate the comedown before it even began, which decreased the magic and perceived duration even more.

 

[indigoaura]

any notable difference in your (or anyone's?) comedown experience with meh and magic?

Not sure if you mean the immediate comedown or the lingering effects the week after. As for the immediate comedown, Meh product does seem to drop off more suddenly and quickly. There is a huge urge to re-dose. To be fair, however, if I go back over my notes for "magic" MDMA and my early uses, I often had issues with short lasting product. I have definitely experienced short acting magic product with a steep drop off as well as longer acting (4-6 hours) magic product with a wavy drop off. The best pills were consistently longer acting, IMO.

"Magic" MDMA, for me, as always produced depression/high emotions/irrationality or what I like to call an "emo" state approximately 3-4 days after the roll. It would last a few days, and then usually by the one week point, you were back to normal. I remember talking to a co-worker about how great it felt the day that serotonin regulated and you felt back to normal. There was no sickness. There were no lingering physical issues. There was sometimes a great afterglow the day or two after the roll.

MehDMA for me makes me nauseous and dizzy, usually starting on day 2 afterwards. I have indigestion and a lot of belching and general gastro discomfort for 3-4 days. There is no depression or emo state.

 

[G_Chem]

At 4 hours it might not be dead baseline, but the effects are less than 1/4 of what they were at the peak. That's a very noticeable decline to people and I can see why they might call it the "start of the comedown" rather than "the roll continuing".

Are we not looking at the same data? I’m gonna be honest I’ve been fairly patient with you but you clearly just want to see what you want to see, that’s not science my friend.

Btw I’m still waiting on your response from like a year ago regarding MDMA neurotoxicity research and frequency of dosing, you tried writing it all off using the old rat to human dosage conversion argument when we look at cMax blood levels they are nearly the same for both rats and humans when it comes to MDMA.

You seem to have a very selective mind.

Looking at that graph YOU provided from Reddit one more time I clearly see at hour 4 effects are still in the 12-13 range peak effects where peak is 53 or so, very much 25% my friend.

The other you provided shows duration of 5 hours for 110mg and 6 hours for a single 145mg dose. We see a correlation of increased duration with increased dosage, yet these mega dosed 200mg Dutch presses only last 2-4 max?

I think I’m done, it’s fairly obvious I’m speaking at a wall at this point.

-GC

 

[ageingpartyfiend]

Not sure if you mean the immediate comedown or the lingering effects the week after.

many thanks - I was referring to the week or so after consumption as opposed to the initial comedown pre sleep

EDIT - fyi I get terrible mental/physical week-long comedowns after meh (have stopped completely now, for quite a while now in fact)

as far as magic is concerned, it's been so long I can't remember really but definitely still suffered (although I remember wonderful aferglow from maybe the first dozen or so mdma sessions in the 90's)

 

[Negi]

Btw I’m still waiting on your response from like a year ago regarding MDMA neurotoxicity research and frequency of dosing, you tried writing it all off using the old rat to human dosage conversion argument when we look at cMax blood levels they are nearly the same for both rats and humans when it comes to MDMA.

I did reply to that post. I will certainly admit I wasn't a very active bluelighter at that point so it was a month after your last post in the thread.

Looking at that graph YOU provided from Reddit one more time I clearly see at hour 4 effects are still in the 12-13 range peak effects where peak is 53 or so, very much 25% my friend.

Fair point, I was just eyeballing it and had 50 as the peak and 10 as point D. Still even if it is at 25% of the peak or slightly higher it's a significant (and noticeable) decline from the euphoric highs.

The other you provided shows duration of 5 hours for 110mg and 6 hours for a single 145mg dose. We see a correlation of increased duration with increased dosage, yet these mega dosed 200mg Dutch presses only last 2-4 max?

Those graphs are a bit tricky, as they are only tracking how "stimulated" the participants felt. That doesn't exactly line up with the effects that people tie to the "roll", as most people still feel energetic and chatty even after the euphoria and heaviest empathogenic effects have worn off. I'm not sure how directly higher doses translate to longer rolls, as the conventional wisdom within the community seems to indicate that higher initial doses mainly lead to a stronger peak experience, and that you need a staggered redose (generally recommended at ~90 minutes) if you want to make your rolls longer. Back in the day, if you double dropped a pill how many extra hours of peaking would that give you compared to just taking a single pill?

As an example of graph complications, the dose curve on the Erowid MDMA Effects page is tracking the "Intoxication" participants felt at each time point. The same study asked three other measurement questions, all of which gave different looking graphs for answers.

 

[Jmoda]

MehDMA for me makes me nauseous and dizzy, usually starting on day 2 afterwards. I have indigestion and a lot of belching and general gastro discomfort for 3-4 days. There is no depression or emo state.

This is particularly interesting to me because my gf for the past several years now seems to be getting this very symptom you describe of belching and gastro discomfort. Generally towards the very tail end, it will start for her and become a huge bother. It seems like the problem definitely worsens, as might be obvious, with redosing, but its gotten so bad to the point where she will be very hesistant to redose now.

 

[indigoaura]

This is particularly interesting to me because my gf for the past several years now seems to be getting this very symptom you describe of belching and gastro discomfort. Generally towards the very tail end, it will start for her and become a huge bother. It seems like the problem definitely worsens, as might be obvious, with redosing, but its gotten so bad to the point where she will be very hesistant to redose now.

Jmoda, I agree. I have to set a firm limit on redoses or it becomes completely unmanageable. On a very low single dose, or a minimal re-dose, it is not as bad. I have felt for some time that there must be a contaminant that is tolerable in small doses but causes issues with higher doses. Never had this issue with MDMA from 2000-2005.

 

[Jmoda]

Jmoda, I agree. I have to set a firm limit on redoses or it becomes completely unmanageable. On a very low single dose, or a minimal re-dose, it is not as bad. I have felt for some time that there must be a contaminant that is tolerable in small doses but causes issues with higher doses. Never had this issue with MDMA from 2000-2005.

Have you ever tried acetone washing? Im wondering if that would be worthwhile and get rid of the contaminants you hypothesize...

 

[Negi]

This is particularly interesting to me because my gf for the past several years now seems to be getting this very symptom you describe of belching and gastro discomfort. Generally towards the very tail end, it will start for her and become a huge bother. It seems like the problem definitely worsens, as might be obvious, with redosing, but its gotten so bad to the point where she will be very hesistant to redose now.

Is that with MDMA you consider to be "meh" or "magic"?

 

[Dance Culture Vibe]

Hi everyone,

I recently sat down with the Executive Director of Dancesafe for my new podcast to discuss the current state of MDMA, and I asked him specifically about the issue of Magic vs Meh!

I'm not sure I was able to properly articulate the strongest arguments/contentions in this thread, but the issue is now on their radar in a new and public way. Hopefully the episode will also serve to mainstream these conversations and introduce people to the specific physiological differences between the two alleged MDMA experiences.

I definitely don't want to spam but figure this is enough of a niche interest to the group that it would be OK to share it with the thread. Please let me know if I'm mistaken here and I'll course remove this post.

The podcast is called Dance Culture Vibe and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, etc. This discussion takes place in Episode 3 - Mitchell Gomez, around 1 hour & 3 minutes in - although I'm sure you'll find much else of interest in this discussion!

Cheers!

 

[user666]

The podcast is called Dance Culture Vibe and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, etc. This discussion takes place in Episode 3 - Mitchell Gomez, around 1 hour & 3 minutes in - although I'm sure you'll find much else of interest in this discussion!

At 1:4:35 He said "GC/MS is not a foolable technology..."

This guy needs to get educated and read some of the papers quoted on this thread which document identical GC/MS spectra from different compounds.

 

[G_Chem]

Hi everyone,

I recently sat down with the Executive Director of Dancesafe for my new podcast to discuss the current state of MDMA, and I asked him specifically about the issue of Magic vs Meh!

I'm not sure I was able to properly articulate the strongest arguments/contentions in this thread, but the issue is now on their radar in a new and public way. Hopefully the episode will also serve to mainstream these conversations and introduce people to the specific physiological differences between the two alleged MDMA experiences.

I definitely don't want to spam but figure this is enough of a niche interest to the group that it would be OK to share it with the thread. Please let me know if I'm mistaken here and I'll course remove this post.

The podcast is called Dance Culture Vibe and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, etc. This discussion takes place in Episode 3 - Mitchell Gomez, around 1 hour & 3 minutes in - although I'm sure you'll find much else of interest in this discussion!

Cheers!

You are awesome man and I’ll be sure to check out this podcast today! While I respect Mitchell and everything he has done (I sport a DanceSafe tattoo from way back..) I have a feeling I’ll respectfully disagree with some of his points.

I love listening to psychedelic and empathogen related podcasts when I make long country wide drives. Unfortunately it’s been awhile on one of those thanks to Covid :/

-GC

 

[Negi]

Hi everyone,

I recently sat down with the Executive Director of Dancesafe for my new podcast to discuss the current state of MDMA, and I asked him specifically about the issue of Magic vs Meh!

I'm not sure I was able to properly articulate the strongest arguments/contentions in this thread, but the issue is now on their radar in a new and public way. Hopefully the episode will also serve to mainstream these conversations and introduce people to the specific physiological differences between the two alleged MDMA experiences.

I definitely don't want to spam but figure this is enough of a niche interest to the group that it would be OK to share it with the thread. Please let me know if I'm mistaken here and I'll course remove this post.

The podcast is called Dance Culture Vibe and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, etc. This discussion takes place in Episode 3 - Mitchell Gomez, around 1 hour & 3 minutes in - although I'm sure you'll find much else of interest in this discussion!

Cheers!

So his speculation is that back in the day people were used to getting MDMA + (meth)amphetamine combination pills. Lower doses of meth would be overwhelmed by the MDMA and not register in reagent tests conducted at the time.