long term in the game with a new problem

[vision conquest]

So I have been an opioid addict, mainly heroin but any opioid I could get my hands on since 1994, I got on the methadone program in 2000 and have been on mmt ever since.


Of coarse during the 20 years I've been on the program I've had plenty of minor lapses/binges, whatever you want to call them with benzos, opioids alcohol and pot was a constant companion the entire time.

In 2012 I had my first taste of crystal meth, back in the day I had tried the old school speed but never developed even the smallest likeing for it, meth however was a very different story.

It got a hold of me very quickly but I had enough foresight to recognize what was happening and stopped it before things got out of control, form that first time in 2012 i never had a run on it that lasted more than a week or two.

This time it has got the better of me, as I write this I have 4 days clean after a run that lasted some 10 weeks or so and I went through what was, for me at least a lot of money.

Long story short I am suicidal, can't find a reaason to get out of bed and just basically don't see any light at the end of this tunnel.

My doctor has prescribed sodium valproate has anyone heard of this and if so do they think it is a good idea, or is it that I just have to be patient cause right now I am in a very dark place.

any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Joey]

Im not sure why you were prescribed that because its a bipolar/epilepsy med. I used to take it in the form of Valproic Acid for bipolar, but take lithium now.

Maybe your doctor thought it would even out the anhedonia associated with crashing? Its depeessing as hell too, but thats still weird for that to be prescribed, IMO. Im not a doctor.

Honestly out of all the studies Ive ever read on meth, there isnt much available so far as a.prescription to treat meth abuse. Buproprion, or wellbutrin has shown some promise for reducing cravings though. It may be worth looking into. It works well as an antidepressant as well.

From wikipedia, "Substituted amphetamine medication mainly for depression and smoking cessation".

Treatment of Methamphetamine Cravings With Bupropion: A Case Report - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I think its worth bringing up next time you see your doctor. I need to talk about getting on this too.

Other then that, its gonna be a tough road, it takes awhile for the body and mind to acclimate back into its natural state. Meth withdrawal can be up to a few weeks and the post acute symptoms can be months, up to around 2 years in an extreme case.

Understanding Meth Addiction

Recreational use of meth is illegal because it is a highly addictive drug that impairs brain function and changes the person’s thoughts and actions. Learn more about meth addiction.

www.verywellmind.com

Take exercise, healthy foods and water. Do things to keep yourself occupied and motivated. Your MMT doc should be able to help you with referrals to counseling and help too if you decide you need it. Its something to think about.

Im struggling with meth bad too. Still using, going into treatment, again, as soon as I get a spot. You can PM me if you want to chat. Not a beacon of recovery or anything but I know a lot about meth and what it does, plus my own experience.

 

[vision conquest]

Thanks Alex, after I posted my message I read your story and I thought it sounded like our stories were a bit similar, only I've been doing this nearly as long as you've been alive, longer if you count from when I started smoking pot, not trying to take anything away from you mate, really just trying to lighten the mood a bit, you would think I would have sorted this shit out by now hey...lol


Anyway thanks for your input, I am going to do some research on bupropion asap.

The doc put me on the valpro as he thought it would stabilize my mood, I think the combination of methadone and meth had me pretty close to a nervous break down and acting more on the manic side than depressed although that seems to have changed since stopping the meth.

During the meth run I also overused the diazepam that I am prescribed and generally stockpile so I think he might be trying to get me off that, i am not sure.

My other issue is if I admit what's been going on over the last 3 months I will almost definitely lose all my take aways, at the moment I only have to pick up once a week and losing that is a big hassle.

My doc is pretty good, he does have some knowledge about substance use and he has been my doc for nearly 20 years so I am comfortable telling him everything.

Again thanks for your help mate, I'm going to read up on bupropion and talk about it with my doc asap, also I might take you up on the offer for a chat, thanks heaps man.

One more thing, I know you are 100% right about the exercise and eating well, before this latest stuff up I had managed to get myself pretty dam fit, going to the gym and training bjj, unfortunately at the moment I have no desire to get back into it but I know that if I can make myself it will help me probably more than any meds can.

I hope you succeed with your recovery mate and I echo the words that another member already said, if you can get off the methadone you can do this.

 

[vision conquest]

Im not sure why you were prescribed that because its a bipolar/epilepsy med. I used to take it in the form of Valproic Acid for bipolar, but take lithium now.

Maybe your doctor thought it would even out the anhedonia associated with crashing? Its depeessing as hell too, but thats still weird for that to be prescribed, IMO. Im not a doctor.

Honestly out of all the studies Ive ever read on meth, there isnt much available so far as a.prescription to treat meth abuse. Buproprion, or wellbutrin has shown some promise for reducing cravings though. It may be worth looking into. It works well as an antidepressant as well.

From wikipedia, "Substituted amphetamine medication mainly for depression and smoking cessation".

Treatment of Methamphetamine Cravings With Bupropion: A Case Report - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I think its worth bringing up next time you see your doctor. I need to talk about getting on this too.

Other then that, its gonna be a tough road, it takes awhile for the body and mind to acclimate back into its natural state. Meth withdrawal can be up to a few weeks and the post acute symptoms can be months, up to around 2 years in an extreme case.

Understanding Meth Addiction

Recreational use of meth is illegal because it is a highly addictive drug that impairs brain function and changes the person’s thoughts and actions. Learn more about meth addiction.

www.verywellmind.com

Take exercise, healthy foods and water. Do things to keep yourself occupied and motivated. Your MMT doc should be able to help you with referrals to counseling and help too if you decide you need it. Its something to think about.

Im struggling with meth bad too. Still using, going into treatment, again, as soon as I get a spot. You can PM me if you want to chat. Not a beacon of recovery or anything but I know a lot about meth and what it does, plus my own experience.

Man Australia has some stupid laws, so the only indication for prescribing bupropion in Australia is for smoking cessation.
I haven't spoken to my doc about it yet, maybe he could be convinced to prescribe it off label but I guess I will give the valpro a chance.

I was ableto find some information regarding the use of sodium valproate to restore the dopamine system after damage due to substance abuse, and there is definitely plenty of info about it being used for mood stabilization.

My doctor suspects I am on the autism spectrum if anybody can educate me about what that might mean for me it would be helpfull.

Today is day 5 clean and I do feel better, at least the feeling of utter hopelessness and self loathing seems to be lifting.

I am suppossed to start bjj training today, i totally don't feel like it but I know if I do, even if it's just for a very easy session I know it will benefit me so I am going to suck it up and just go.

 

[Joey]

Man Australia has some stupid laws, so the only indication for prescribing bupropion in Australia is for smoking cessation.
I haven't spoken to my doc about it yet, maybe he could be convinced to prescribe it off label but I guess I will give the valpro a chance.

I was ableto find some information regarding the use of sodium valproate to restore the dopamine system after damage due to substance abuse, and there is definitely plenty of info about it being used for mood stabilization.

My doctor suspects I am on the autism spectrum if anybody can educate me about what that might mean for me it would be helpfull.

Today is day 5 clean and I do feel better, at least the feeling of utter hopelessness and self loathing seems to be lifting.

I am suppossed to start bjj training today, i totally don't feel like it but I know if I do, even if it's just for a very easy session I know it will benefit me so I am going to suck it up and just go.

I've done some research on this exact subject before. These aren't the exact links that I found in earlier days last few years or so at different points but I know the subject a bit and was able to find some info that should be interesting to you. Bipolar and Autism are rare to occur together, but they can co-occur. Substance abuse is a comorbidity in a percentage of both of these groups alone, let alone combined together. We're a pretty rare type, but it does happen.

Just letting you know, I'm diagnosed both High Function Autism (what used to be called aspergers) and Bipolar type II. It's affected my life to a point that I didn't even realize for the longest time. I was lucky enough to not be diagnosed until I was 24, when in retrospect it should have been caught (aspergers specifically at that time) in childhood, so so easily. I used to sit in front of the computer at my Grandmas house and type: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 and so on all the way into the thousands, regularly. I was obsessed with math and numbers, can still crunch numbers pretty quick in my head though my life's drifted a totally different direction from a math head, now I'm a meth head haha.

The amount of social issues I've had, sometimes flat out not getting people.. there's been extra steps involved in my socialization in life and to this day I'm still pretty stunned sometimes. I'm very good at reading people how people normally do in some ways because it's been something I've been trying to intellectualize, social cues and expressing myself properly and such for a long long time, and still I have my moments and days. It's not an issue of empathy or conscience or anything like that, it's just been harder for me to fit in than average. In some ways I wound up fitting in pretty well because I worked at it more than the average person would, maybe. Some other times, I've literally been called retarded because I just didn't know how to act in a group (I was very, very quiet, stoic, depressive, awkward as fuck) and I came across like I was stupid or something. Some years and still days have been better than others.

I was ashamed of it until I was about 26. Somewhere between 26-27 I started to accept it. I was ashamed of it because at that point I felt like I'd learned that I'll never be "normal" or maybe even worthy ever, Ever again, if I ever was. My ups and downs (bipolar diagnosed same time) were prevalent enough that it didn't surprise me and that was acceptable to me, but the autism wasn't. A neurological developmental disorder cannot truly be treated. It can be worked at in the sense that I can, and always have without realizing it work at improving on those deficits however I can, to whatever degree but I'll never be a "neurotypical".

It fucking sucks man. Anyway, I know exactly what you're talking about, I think, on the front of having both bipolar and autism. Then having a substance use disorder on top of that, crystal meth specifically at this time.. I know. So let me know what you think, if you're up to it. Let me know if you have any questions about this kind of thing.

These are a few links I found on the fly for you..


Can Bipolar and Autism co-occur?

https://www.healthline.com/health/bipolar-and-autism

Polysubstance and Behavorial Addictions

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/crips/2018/1547975/

Substance Use Disorder in High Function Autism

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4493816/

Autism shares Brain Signature with Bipolar, Schizophrenia

https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/autism-shares-brain-signature-schizophrenia-bipolar-disorder/

 

[Joey]

Honestly, I think it's the reason why I turned to this shit. More than anything else that hurt me, my own inadequacies at a fundamental level fucked me up the most.

 

[vision conquest]

Honestly, I think it's the reason why I turned to this shit. More than anything else that hurt me, my own inadequacies at a fundamental level fucked me up the most.

You've sent me some helpfull stuff and given me some interesting reading man but that one statement really dropped my jaw, I've been thinking about why the hell I do this to myself and the number one fact that I just cannot deny is exactly what you have expressed in that one statement.

I guess the only treatment in the end that will have any lasting efficacy is when we accept ourselves as a worthwhile person that has value and our flaws don't take away from that.

When I et locked into a routine there seems no limit to what I can achieve although I become obsessed all too easily, but when that routine is broken I fall apart like a house of cards.

Did you find the valproate helped in any way, it feels like it is helping me but it is so early it could likely be placebo.

g

 

[Joey]

You've sent me some helpfull stuff and given me some interesting reading man but that one statement really dropped my jaw, I've been thinking about why the hell I do this to myself and the number one fact that I just cannot deny is exactly what you have expressed in that one statement.

I guess the only treatment in the end that will have any lasting efficacy is when we accept ourselves as a worthwhile person that has value and our flaws don't take away from that.

When I et locked into a routine there seems no limit to what I can achieve although I become obsessed all too easily, but when that routine is broken I fall apart like a house of cards.

Did you find the valproate helped in any way, it feels like it is helping me but it is so early it could likely be placebo.

g

It was helpful but not nearly as much as lithium has been for me. I dont know what all the reasoning for your doctors valproic acid prescription though, I took strictly for bipolar and moved to lithium for reasons I dont remember. I was recommended it, or asked for it... don't remember for the life of me right now Ive been through a lot of psych stuff. But the Lithium has worked much better as a mood stabilizer for me.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Long story short I am suicidal, can't find a reaason to get out of bed and just basically don't see any light at the end of this tunnel.

There is light and you will get through this. The comedown from your first major meth binge is like no other hell and many people fall into a deep dark pit of despair. I remember feeling suicidal at the time and going to see a psychiatrist who diagnosed me as bipolar and put me on antipsychotics which helped straight away.

In most cases the real horrific hopeless depression should start to lift at the 5 day clean mark - sounds like you are just about there. After that you will feel brighter although you can have lingering minor depression and lethargy for quite a bit longer. As soon as you can start getting exercise and sunlight - those two things do wonders and will help bring you back to baseline moods more quickly and then probably make you happier than before you even started with the meth.

Best of luck with your recovery.

 

[vision conquest]

H

There is light and you will get through this. The comedown from your first major meth binge is like no other hell and many people fall into a deep dark pit of despair. I remember feeling suicidal at the time and going to see a psychiatrist who diagnosed me as bipolar and put me on antipsychotics which helped straight away.

In most cases the real horrific hopeless depression should start to lift at the 5 day clean mark - sounds like you are just about there. After that you will feel brighter although you can have lingering minor depression and lethargy for quite a bit longer. As soon as you can start getting exercise and sunlight - those two things do wonders and will help bring you back to baseline moods more quickly and then probably make you happier than before you even started with the meth.

Best of luck with your recovery.

Thanks mate, yesterday was day 5 and I managed to go to my bjj class, did a very light session but I'm glad I went.

I thought the valproate may have been helping but it might just be coincidence that I have started takeing it around the 5 day mark and maybe I would be feeling better whether I was takeing it or not.

Anyway I will give it a go, at leat until I see my doc again which is only 11 days away.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I’ve never heard of valproate helping with meth comedowns/withdrawal but it sounds like there maybe something in it. I swear by benzos and antipsychotics for the first few days after I stop a binge. That way I don’t really feel the comedowns very much any more. Would be better if I did - it would be a good incentive to give up meth altogether and permanently.

 

[vision conquest]

I’ve never heard of valproate helping with meth comedowns/withdrawal but it sounds like there maybe something in it. I swear by benzos and antipsychotics for the first few days after I stop a binge. That way I don’t really feel the comedowns very much any more. Would be better if I did - it would be a good incentive to give up meth altogether and permanently.

Yeh I have a pretty solid stash of diazepam but over the coarse of this binge I ended up using to much to regularly so I want to take a decent break from that as well.

There is some interesting info regarding sodium valproate as it relates to meth, not so much about dealing with the actual come down phase but stabilizing mood after the early days, I tried to post a couple of links that I found yesterday but couldn't make them work.

I found them by searching sodium valproate modulation fo dopeamine system after meth amphetamine abuse, so maybe if you did a similar search you might find something interesting.

For me I would compare the way it makes me feel as similar to phenibut and pregabolin, pregabolin can give me quite a high if taken at high doses but at the lower dose of around 150mg/day it is calming and anxiolytic.


The dose of valpro I am currently on is also very low, 200mg twice a day.

From the reading I have done so far it works on the gaba system, not sure if it is a classic gabergic but it definitely feels as though it has a similar action to most gabergic, even feels similar to diazepam without the sedation at least at the dose I am on at the moment.

Anyway I'll give it another week or so and then assess the situation again.

Thanks for your kind words by the way, it really shouldn't be underestimated the power a few kind words have to brighten someones day even when things are very dark.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Thanks for this info - I’ll do some research into it myself. It sounds very interesting. Glad to have brightened your day - that’s what’s BL is all about for me.

 

[I hope it gets better]

So I have been an opioid addict, mainly heroin but any opioid I could get my hands on since 1994, I got on the methadone program in 2000 and have been on mmt ever since.


Of coarse during the 20 years I've been on the program I've had plenty of minor lapses/binges, whatever you want to call them with benzos, opioids alcohol and pot was a constant companion the entire time.

In 2012 I had my first taste of crystal meth, back in the day I had tried the old school speed but never developed even the smallest likeing for it, meth however was a very different story.

It got a hold of me very quickly but I had enough foresight to recognize what was happening and stopped it before things got out of control, form that first time in 2012 i never had a run on it that lasted more than a week or two.

This time it has got the better of me, as I write this I have 4 days clean after a run that lasted some 10 weeks or so and I went through what was, for me at least a lot of money.

Long story short I am suicidal, can't find a reaason to get out of bed and just basically don't see any light at the end of this tunnel.

My doctor has prescribed sodium valproate has anyone heard of this and if so do they think it is a good idea, or is it that I just have to be patient cause right now I am in a very dark place.

any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sodium Valproate messed me up I'm still dealing with a movement disorder it gave me after I did speed then took it , just do your research on the drug , these antipsychotics have fucked up effects they don't tell you about

 

[Branggen]

Man Australia has some stupid laws, so the only indication for prescribing bupropion in Australia is for smoking cessation.

You could always try to get it prescribed for smoking cessation

 

[vision conquest]

Sodium Valproate messed me up I'm still dealing with a movement disorder it gave me after I did speed then took it , just do your research on the drug , these antipsychotics have fucked up effects they don't tell you about

Yeh, man I don't want that, i'll have to keep an eye on things, what sort of dose were you on?

I nearly bloody caved last night, actually the only reason I didn't is because we couldn't even get on, things are getting stupidly expensive and very hard to get over here, a result of so many restrictions both on international and even on movement withing the country from state to state all due to covid 19.

I guess I should consider it a blessing, I would be starting to count clean days from scratch if we had managed to get it where as I am on day 7 today.

 

[empeebee]

My doctor has prescribed sodium valproate

Please say no to the Sodium Valproate

Government urged to issue apology over sodium valproate, Primodos and pelvic mesh ‘public health scandals’ by safety review
https://www.epilepsy.org.uk/news/ne...ium-valproate-primodos-and-pelvic-mesh-public

 

[vision conquest]

You could always try to get it prescribed for smoking cessation

Yeh I could probably get my doc to go for that seeing as my wife is trying to stop smoking at the moment using patches and I am smoking again myself, only for the last couple of weeks and I reckon I can stop pretty easy, have done in the past.


Any I think he would give it to me if he thought it would be beneficial, I will definitely discuss it with him at my next appointment.

 

[empeebee]

I will definitely discuss it with him at my next appointment

Please also discuss with him the information contained in the link I posted.

 

[vision conquest]

Please say no to the Sodium Valproate

Government urged to issue apology over sodium valproate, Primodos and pelvic mesh ‘public health scandals’ by safety review
https://www.epilepsy.org.uk/news/ne...ium-valproate-primodos-and-pelvic-mesh-public

I read that article, the problem is really not relevant for me, seems it caused birth defects so they're saying a pregnant woman should definitely not be using it and even though I am male, if my wife and I were thinking about haveing a child it would also be a bad idea to be on it.

To be sure it is tragic what has happened to the families that have been affected, seeing as I am a 46 year old male and my wife is a few years older than me with no chance of becomeing pregnant I don't think that particular side effect is of great concern to us.

Thank you for your concern though and I will discuss all theinformation that I have gathered here from these helpfull replies with my doc on my next visit which is, I think, on the 21st of this month.