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Consensus on Alpha-Lipoic Acid and neurotoxicity

t_wrex

t_wrex

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 29, 2019
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I've used MDMA about 10 times in my life, and the last few times I have noticed a marked comedown of depression-like mood changes in the subsequent few days. Some researching has turned up claims that alpha-lipoic acid, taken before and during the roll, will prevent MDMA-induced neurotoxicity. As far as I can tell, everyone making this claim references the same 1999 study ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619665 ). I have been unable to find any replicating studies, or really any others at all that mention the use of ALA. Also, I don't have paid journal access, so I can't ascertain how this study was conducted (on humans, animals, etc.)

What is the scientific consensus on this, and have you tried this and noticed any difference in post-roll feelings? I can find as many people who swear by it as people who say it's BS.

Thanks.
 
The only consensus I am aware of is that free radical formation and the resulting oxidative stress have been linked to MDMA neurotoxicity. This (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/1098-2396(200104)40:1<55::AID-SYN1026>3.0.CO;2-O) article indicates that vitamin C had similar effects to ALA. Both of these compounds are indeed antioxidants. I couldn't find any newer research on this topic

Body temperature has also been linked to the extent of neurotoxicity of MDMA's metabolites, hence the need for occasional breaks if one is dancing on the drug. http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/316/1/53

Personally, I used vitamin C and ALA on my first roll and on subsequent rolls I only used vitamin C just because I forgot. I would say that the antioxidants certainly won't hurt but one can't definitively say that they help any significant amount
 
Thanks for the link. I've never heard of sci-hub.tw , but it looks to be a very good resource. I've got it bookmarked. The study was done in rats, not humans, so take that for what it is.

Regarding the other article you posted, key takeaways appear to be limiting dosage to around 100mg, spreading out the doses in small chunks, and avoiding late nights/excessive physical activity.
 
What I found interesting about the dosing recommendations in the other article was that they did not try to prevent the third and fourth re-dose, they just cut the dosage by 50% each time. I have never tried anything like that. I think next time I roll, I may try this dosing recommendation, just to see how it works for me.
 
indigoaura said:
What I found interesting about the dosing recommendations in the other article was that they did not try to prevent the third and fourth re-dose, they just cut the dosage by 50% each time. I have never tried anything like that. I think next time I roll, I may try this dosing recommendation, just to see how it works for me.
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I don't know about you, but I find it quite difficult not to redose on MDMA. Doing smaller amounts multiple times may satiate this desire.
 
t_wrex said:
I don't know about you, but I find it quite difficult not to redose on MDMA. Doing smaller amounts multiple times may satiate this desire.
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I agree. I have always re-dosed. I used to be able to keep it to just one re-dose, but over the years it inched up to two re-doses. I find, in general, that anything more than two re-doses really gives me a hard comedown, so I don't go farther than that.

I usually do something like 120-80-80 or 120-100-100. I have tried the 120-60 approach before, but it never quite works for me. My issue is that all of the product I have had access to just does not cause a peak off 120 mg. It does not get me where I want to be. So, my experience is usually 120 mg makes me start coming up, but I don't reach the peak. I take the 2nd dose to attempt to get where I want to be, and then the third dose to maintain where I am.

His recommendation of 125-60-30 may not be enough for me, but it might trick me into taking less. Can't hurt to try. If it guarantees an afterglow rather than a comedown, it might be worth the loss in intensity during the roll.
 
indigoaura said:
I agree. I have always re-dosed. I used to be able to keep it to just one re-dose, but over the years it inched up to two re-doses. I find, in general, that anything more than two re-doses really gives me a hard comedown, so I don't go farther than that.

I usually do something like 120-80-80 or 120-100-100. I have tried the 120-60 approach before, but it never quite works for me. My issue is that all of the product I have had access to just does not cause a peak off 120 mg. It does not get me where I want to be. So, my experience is usually 120 mg makes me start coming up, but I don't reach the peak. I take the 2nd dose to attempt to get where I want to be, and then the third dose to maintain where I am.

His recommendation of 125-60-30 may not be enough for me, but it might trick me into taking less. Can't hurt to try. If it guarantees an afterglow rather than a comedown, it might be worth the loss in intensity during the roll.
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Are you making sure to space your rolls out? I've noticed an incredibly long tail with this drug. 1 month isn't really enough for the emotional magic to stay around for me I've noticed. I'm still pretty new at this drug, so I'm currently going to try 45 days to see if I feel a stronger return. For the past 3 rolls, I've waited 1 month, and each time the experience has been more and more "speed" and less "love".
 
I wonder if Dr. Sessa may be over generalizing from his studies, which may tend to recruit people with minimal histories of MDMA use. He may well be right that sleep and other factors play a role in worsening aftereffects.

However, I'm convinced that if you look for people who say they have a bad comedown and give them pure MDMA in a controlled setting, you will find that many of them do indeed have a bad comedown.
 
t_wrex said:
Are you making sure to space your rolls out? I've noticed an incredibly long tail with this drug. 1 month isn't really enough for the emotional magic to stay around for me I've noticed. I'm still pretty new at this drug, so I'm currently going to try 45 days to see if I feel a stronger return. For the past 3 rolls, I've waited 1 month, and each time the experience has been more and more "speed" and less "love".
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Smart. I am a long time user (20 years). At first, I followed the one month rule, but now I usually wait 3-4 months. I have issues with getting decent product though, so even the longer breaks don't really help, unfortunately.

The more you wait now, in the early days of your use, the more likely you will be able to enjoy the experience for many years to come.
 
MBaggott said:
I wonder if Dr. Sessa may be over generalizing from his studies, which may tend to recruit people with minimal histories of MDMA use. He may well be right that sleep and other factors play a role in worsening aftereffects.

However, I'm convinced that if you look for people who say they have a bad comedown and give them pure MDMA in a controlled setting, you will find that many of them do indeed have a bad comedown.
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I've seen many people report that it takes a few consecutive uses before the comedown starts to be noticeable. Perhaps your theory has merit.
 
I don’t think there will or ever be a complete concesus. There will likely never be truly controlled, well-designed experiments on the subject. However, this is my position.

We know that things like ALA, vitamin c, NAC, metformin, green tea, ALCAR, and others act as antioxidants and also that MDMA likely increases oxidative stress.

These supplements cost pennies per dose...so if you’re willing to spend money on getting fucked up, what’s the harm in spending an extra dollar or two on some compounds that may protect your health in the long run?

Certainly won’t hurt.
 
Swim15 said:
These supplements cost pennies per dose...so if you’re willing to spend money on getting fucked up, what’s the harm in spending an extra dollar or two on some compounds that may protect your health in the long run?
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I agree with this 100%. I use all that you have mentioned (with the exception of metaformin) as well as Vit E and CoQ10. I use most of them pre-roll, with dose, intervallically throughout the roll and post-roll.
Since using the anti-oxidants for MDMA usage, I continued to use them everyday. It subjectively makes me feel better/healthier.

@indigoaura
I also agree with Dr. Sessa's sleep recommendation. I only roll when I know that I don't have to wake up the next day at any particular time. I just sleep until I feel like getting up. I think sleep is the most important recovery tool.
I usually roll alone and just like to listen to music or watch really great TV/movies lol. So I don't dance around. Even during my rave days, I've always enjoyed sitting with my group of friends in a lovey puddle and didn't particularly dancing as much.
Still, at home with my solitary rolls, I make sure to keep cool by hydrating and fanning myself as I do tend to get very hot.
 
There will likely never be truly controlled, well-designed experiments on the subject.
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I think once it is out of schedule 1 here in the USA, there will be tons of studies. Only a matter of time. It will be important to researchers to figure out what causes damage and how to prevent it.
 
indigoaura said:
I think once it is out of schedule 1 here in the USA, there will be tons of studies. Only a matter of time. It will be important to researchers to figure out what causes damage and how to prevent it.
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The new Johns Hopkins psychedelic research center would be a prime location for such testing.
 
Another supplement I've heard conflicting reports on is 5-HTP (serotonin prodrug) for post-roll. From what I've read, this is mostly useless, since the serotonin neurotransmitters are going to be downregulated after a roll, and won't be capable of producing very much serotonin.
 
t_wrex said:
I've used MDMA about 10 times in my life, and the last few times I have noticed a marked comedown of depression-like mood changes in the subsequent few days. Some researching has turned up claims that alpha-lipoic acid, taken before and during the roll, will prevent MDMA-induced neurotoxicity. As far as I can tell, everyone making this claim references the same 1999 study ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619665 ). I have been unable to find any replicating studies, or really any others at all that mention the use of ALA. Also, I don't have paid journal access, so I can't ascertain how this study was conducted (on humans, animals, etc.)

What is the scientific consensus on this, and have you tried this and noticed any difference in post-roll feelings? I can find as many people who swear by it as people who say it's BS.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I was just wondering, if you don't mind sharing, what the frequency was of the rolls you have done? Also, what were your dosages.
Cheers
 
I will add this to the conversation as well...my earliest rolls had the worst post roll depression. Now, it is rare for me to get depression as a post roll effect, but I get other after effects.
 
fasterfb said:
I was just wondering, if you don't mind sharing, what the frequency was of the rolls you have done? Also, what were your dosages.
Cheers
Click to expand...

When I was in college (~2010-2013) I rolled maybe 5 or 6 times, and don't remember having any hangover, even though I was living a pretty unhealthy lifestyle. 3 months ago, I decided to revisit 200mgMDMA, and it was beautiful just like the first times, with no hangover. A month later, I candy flipped with 180mg MDMA and 4 hits of LSD, and had a fantastic time but felt drained and down for a few days. Now tonight, I'm doing MDMA again, and have noticed a fair bit less emotional lifts, and a fair bit more traditional speed feeling (a hallmark of a good MDMA experience has always been a nearly uncontrollable urge to text/call friends/family and tell them how much I love them, and I'm not feeling that tonight).

I AM taking the ALA supplement along with the MDMA tonight, and I'll report back how I'm feeling tommorow. I've also got some NAC that i'll be taking tommorow and for the next few days. One kinda gross thing, the ALA seems to be making my piss smell very bad. Never had that happen before.
 
@t_wrex
Lol, so true about the weird pee smell from ALA.
I'm not surprised that you felt drained for a few days after flipping with 4 hits of acid.
I always feel tired the next day or so after tripping with a big dose. I also am tired the day after a roll. This might be due to having a bad liver (liver cirrhosis).

Enjoy your roll! Looking forward to reading your report tomorrow.

I am planning a candy flip next Friday after only a 2 week MDMA break. I'm interested to see if the BPC-157 peptides I've been taking has any effect.

@indigoaura
How long did it take for your nausea after the last roll to go away?
 
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