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Harm Reduction Mitragyna speciosa (kratom)

Has anyone who used kratom to get off of high dose opioids (or H) arrived in this thread yet? I've only withdrawn from opioids once in my life before I knew kratom existed and my god darkest time of my life. Scarred me forever. I don't know how it's going to be with kratom.. hopefully not as omg kill me.
 
That sounds rough. Gabapentin and Lyrica can potentiate certain substances sometimes. It mostly fucks up my high if I let it kick in before taking an opiate. (We've debated this topic. haha)

That was a helluva combination you took. The baclofen and diazepam played a major part in you blacking out no doubt. Be careful.

Oh I usually am careful. The thing is, I was taking diazepam and baclofen regularly with kratom and dxm, as well as gabapentin or phenibut, and never had any issues. When I was put on 50mg pregabalin TID it seriously fucked me up consistently. I had been using this combo for a few months before the blackout occurred; I had been up for close to 48 hours and I tend to black out if I take heavy doses of sedatives while sleep deprived, so I believe the sleep deprivation was the key factor that night.
 
Scarred me forever. I don't know how it's going to be with kratom.. hopefully not as omg kill me.
I get off opioids and other stuff on the regular with kratom... one either is susceptible to it's effect or one is not. Hit or miss.
Works for me.
The scary shit is the mind fuck... let it go and kick the shit outta the habit off the dick (can be rough but possible). If needed use the kratom but use it when as close to full WDs as possible for best effects/results. <-- My experience.
Quit reading horror stories as this and the unknown are the worst parts.
It can/has be/been done with me as well as a lot of others here... just read through some threads here at BL and one may get a little more insight.
Peace and love
 
I first did kratom back in 2003 I think it was, there were a couple of report on Erowid and I came across a head shop that was selling 10 gram bags, so I bought one. At the time you could only get crushed leaf, not powder. The only method of consumption I read about was brewing tea the traditional way, which involves gently simmering your dose in water for 15-20 minutes, and then straining out the leaves and make a second tea the same way, then combine and cool. As it cools it goes from a brown/red color to the appearance and consistency of coffee with cream in it. Maybe a bit lighter. It tastes horrible, but my god... I had done vicodins a few times, didn't really think it was anything special, but kratom was amazing to me. I really find the experience different with downing finely powdered leaf. You hit the dizziness/weird place much quicker which doesn't allow the best parts to fully develop.

That first time at 10g, I was in my friend's car and drank it. We were just driving and smoking, I think it was Thanksgiving or something and we were visiting our families from college. In 20 minutes I felt an amazing rush, it was kind of like really good coke, I felt like I wanted to talk about everything and move around a lot, I was so excited. Then it hit fully and I had to have my friend pull over so I could throw up. But it was the second best I'd ever felt from anything at that time, and honestly to this day. I felt better in my early MDMA rolls, and from some other things, too, in the intervening years, but it was really something. Pretty quickly I found where to get it and started buying pounds. I kept doing it, more and more, for 6 years, and at some point it shifted to the finely powdered form and I swear it's just not the same. But it could also be that my receptors were no longer virgins. I ended up eventually upgrading to harder opiates and eventually quit opiates altogether.

I can safely say that my favorite opioid highs on anything have been kratom (I have never IVd anything so keep that in mind, I always figured crossing that line would end with me dead), in those early years. But these days, recently I had a bit of a relapse, which started with kratom. These days it makes me feel pretty nice for a short bit and then BAM, instant withdrawal mode. It's weird.

We had a petition here for Kratom not to be banned. I think it has to have a certain amount of votes first before it gets petitioned to government,I'm not sure if the amount was ever met and if it was it never made any difference. That's the thing about the UK government,they're pretty liberal or lax until things get into the media then they act on things to an extreme without thinking or doing research and then when they've made their decisions then they can't be budged. Unless there's a public outcry and unfortunately for Kratom there hasn't.

In the US, we had an incoming ban, amazingly, be stopped by basically a petition, there was so much pushback that it didn't happen.

Has anyone who used kratom to get off of high dose opioids (or H) arrived in this thread yet? I've only withdrawn from opioids once in my life before I knew kratom existed and my god darkest time of my life. Scarred me forever. I don't know how it's going to be with kratom.. hopefully not as omg kill me.

I have withdrawn from heroin, poppy tea, and (very) heavy kratom usage (like 50g a day). Heroin was the worst overall in terms of hos sick and empty I felt, but kratom had the WORST RLS. I fucking hate RLS, I used to just get it when I was a kid constantly all the time, before it was a recognized medical condition, my brother and mom and I all get it, and our family doctor basically told us we were crazy and just don't move our legs. Anyway, the worst part of opiate w/d, to me, is the RLS, because it drives me fucking crazy, and I can't sleep at all no matter what. I don't know what the worst part for you is, but yeah, the RLS was awful, but again, I was doing a huge amount, and for a long time. I didn't feel sick like with other opiates though, I didn't get nauseous or anything, but there was a ton of anxiety. Pretty similar, but different. One nice thing is the withdrawal is shorter than most other opioids.
 
The fun candy IS OUT. The past few weeks I've wanted to feel opioids constantly non-stop (and sometimes I did). I just realized if I continue this way it's only going to get so much worse. Man... what an amazing month though holy shit.

All I've got in my withdrawak kit is high dose kratom so here goes nothing :) I suppose I deserve what's about to happen to my body. Wish me luck!
 
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I first did kratom back in 2003 I think it was, there were a couple of report on Erowid and I came across a head shop that was selling 10 gram bags, so I bought one. At the time you could only get crushed leaf, not powder. The only method of consumption I read about was brewing tea the traditional way, which involves gently simmering your dose in water for 15-20 minutes, and then straining out the leaves and make a second tea the same way, then combine and cool. As it cools it goes from a brown/red color to the appearance and consistency of coffee with cream in it. Maybe a bit lighter. It tastes horrible, but my god... I had done vicodins a few times, didn't really think it was anything special, but kratom was amazing to me. I really find the experience different with downing finely powdered leaf. You hit the dizziness/weird place much quicker which doesn't allow the best parts to fully develop.

That first time at 10g, I was in my friend's car and drank it. We were just driving and smoking, I think it was Thanksgiving or something and we were visiting our families from college. In 20 minutes I felt an amazing rush, it was kind of like really good coke, I felt like I wanted to talk about everything and move around a lot, I was so excited. Then it hit fully and I had to have my friend pull over so I could throw up. But it was the second best I'd ever felt from anything at that time, and honestly to this day. I felt better in my early MDMA rolls, and from some other things, too, in the intervening years, but it was really something. Pretty quickly I found where to get it and started buying pounds. I kept doing it, more and more, for 6 years, and at some point it shifted to the finely powdered form and I swear it's just not the same. But it could also be that my receptors were no longer virgins. I ended up eventually upgrading to harder opiates and eventually quit opiates altogether.

I can safely say that my favorite opioid highs on anything have been kratom (I have never IVd anything so keep that in mind, I always figured crossing that line would end with me dead), in those early years. But these days, recently I had a bit of a relapse, which started with kratom. These days it makes me feel pretty nice for a short bit and then BAM, instant withdrawal mode. It's weird.



In the US, we had an incoming ban, amazingly, be stopped by basically a petition, there was so much pushback that it didn't happen.



I have withdrawn from heroin, poppy tea, and (very) heavy kratom usage (like 50g a day). Heroin was the worst overall in terms of hos sick and empty I felt, but kratom had the WORST RLS. I fucking hate RLS, I used to just get it when I was a kid constantly all the time, before it was a recognized medical condition, my brother and mom and I all get it, and our family doctor basically told us we were crazy and just don't move our legs. Anyway, the worst part of opiate w/d, to me, is the RLS, because it drives me fucking crazy, and I can't sleep at all no matter what. I don't know what the worst part for you is, but yeah, the RLS was awful, but again, I was doing a huge amount, and for a long time. I didn't feel sick like with other opiates though, I didn't get nauseous or anything, but there was a ton of anxiety. Pretty similar, but different. One nice thing is the withdrawal is shorter than most other opioids.

Xorkoth -
I read some old threads from around 2008 I believe in which there was discussion about the use of loperamide to potentiate kratom. Can you speak on this at all?

And GMOTC - you got this. I've never used kratom specifically for opiate withdrawal but I have withdrawn many times without it from opioids ranging from methadone to heroin and codeine. I would have been so so incredibly grateful for kratom at those times.
I hate this cliche but it saved my life for 10 years, some time ago... One Day at a Time (no 12 step affiliation here)
 
^ Same. I am grateful for its existence. I actually don't feel any physical symptoms. Just some added stress and some ahedonia (inability to enjoy anything). Provided I'm not at the peak yet.

I know you asked someone else, but loperamide with kratom helps you feel totally normal (if in withdrawal from real opiates), but using lope to enhance a high? Lope has a withdrawal that seems to be longer than any traditional opiate and it's not necessarily even an opiate. There are a couple of horror stories on BL where people became addicted to high dose lope and all the misery that comes with that and having to taper down. Makes me not want to ever take lope again. If you're going to get high there are far better ways in my opinion. I'd be crazy enough to state that you might as well take real opiates other than lope and just use caution. Not that anyone would become addicted to loperamide just by taking it with kratom once in a blue moon though.

So I'd say that kratom helps the physical symptoms of WD, but definitely it's not potent enough to save you from the mental consequences for the most part. I suppose one could get off kratom with subs for high dose kratom "addiction," but I don't know how effective suboxone would be because kratom is a totally different substance than suboxone and it's unique in comparison to most opiates. I was actually withdrawing two weeks ago from kratom while on oxy wondering if the oxy was working at all even though I felt a prominent high. So kratom has it's own unique withdrawal. I was high from opioids but sweating and severe anxiety/grouchiness. It was awful and as soon as I took kratom again I was magically normal and in a good mood again.
 
For me now in my relapse I'm coming off of now, taking kratom will make me feel normal or even fairly good, but then 5 hours later I kick into kratom withdrawal on top of it. Of course, I probably get a huge kindling effect from kratom since I was doing 50 grams a day for many years, even though that was like 7, 8 years ago that I stopped using it regularly (I moved on to stronger opiates and then totally quit for almost 6 years until the last few months). For me, to use kratom I have to dose it like 3-4x a day, but that didn't used to be the case so if you haven't ever been heavy into it, it could be a great aid for withdrawal.

Xorkoth -
I read some old threads from around 2008 I believe in which there was discussion about the use of loperamide to potentiate kratom. Can you speak on this at all?

Loperamide is an opiate, somewhat related to fentanyl, but it doesn't cross the BBB easily. If you mega-dose it, it will help a lot with withdrawal and will add its own feeling to other opiates. It's not at all euphoric, but it does hit you with a fairly heavy body high, it doesn't really good, but it takes away the awful feelings from withdrawal pretty well.

However, it is very dangerous. It can cause long QT syndrome which can result in cardiac arrest. There is a massive loperamide thread in Trip Reports that has gone on for many years, and a few people have written in to say they or a loved one almost died or did die from loperamide abuse, from heart damage. Therefore I do not recommend it. It also dries you out something fierce, dry mouth, constipation, dry eyes, etc. I can't really recommend it, a few people on here have ended up addicted to loperamide because once they got off their main opiate, they experienced loperamide withdrawal from using it too long. Apparently loperamide withdrawal is horrendous and extremely long-lasting. So be really careful.
 
I'm not talking about high doses of loperamide to obtain a high; I should have been more clear. The specific thread I am referring to (I'll post link if I can find it again) talked about preloading with loperamide (both in low and high doses) to potentiate kratom with the theory being because loperamide does not cross the BBB and targets the GI opioid receptors, this would lead to more of the opioid agonists in kratom binding to the CNS receptors.
I do appreciate the warning though.

If I had access to real opiates I would of course be using them, but I do not currently.

Link to referenced thread

EDIT: I guess the doses mentioned here are pretty high, but that isn't something I'm interested in doing.
 
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It's possible it would allow some of the molecules to not bind to the gut receptors even in low doses, it's worth a try. However even low dose loperamide dries you out and causes/increases constipation.
 
It's possible it would allow some of the molecules to not bind to the gut receptors even in low doses, it's worth a try. However even low dose loperamide dries you out and causes/increases constipation.

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately the 6mg I took this morning for IBS-d didn't do anything... TMI I know. I actually am prescribed diphenoxylate/atropine (lomotil brand name; Schedule-V in the US) 2.5mg/0.25mg for my diarrhea issues. Now that is some serious stuff. Serious constipation occurs IME, much more so than loperamide. Not to derail the thread; I am aware of the issues with lomotil abuse and atropine etc.

I admittedly have abused the diphenoxylate in the past, and it works, but not worth the literal gut wrenching pain 2 days later. Had me in tears one time on the toilet at work calling my wife on the phone in case I passed out from the pain; that's love:)
I mainly keep it (and continue refilling it) as a withdrawal aid.
 
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Ive been buying Kratom several months now from a reputable vendor and I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm almost a year clean of opiates and a heavy alcohol habit. Not only does it boost my mood and productivity, it stops my cravings and is a damn good pain reducer for my lower back. Switching strains is key for me as it keeps the receptors guessing. To hell with subs and methadone
 
Main problem with kratom is it turns your face black after years of use, and the fallout from people thinking you were doing "blackface" as a joke would be devastating!

You know, I've always read that long term kratom users (in Thailand) develop darkening of facial skin pigment with heavy use. I've been using kratom in 30 - 50g doses per day consistently for like 4ish years (cant remember exactly when I started). I have not experienced any pigment darkening or skin issues of any kind. I really haven't had any extreme negative responses, other than typical side effects. Just my experience.

Speaking of "Black Face", Turbo Negro is the shit! 🤘

As an anecdote, as I've posted a lot recently, I've been using kratom since ~ 2014. I started using it to replace opioids from pain management; but I was not physiologically dependent on opioids at the time (Rx was PRN). I have been heavily dependent on heroin, morphine, methadone, hydro/oxy, codeine etc many times like 10 years prior, just not when I made the switch to kratom.

I sure as hell hope skin issues don't develop. I also worry about testosterone and thyroid issues, though haven't experienced them at all (30 y/o Male). Had routine medical blood work done 4 months ago with primary care provider and all was wnl.

Though, I personally would choose methadone or buprenorphine maintenance therapy over kratom use at this point; I posted my reasoning earlier in this thread. I know that is not a popular opinion, but that is how I feel. I am really physiologically dependent on kratom. Serious and heavy withdrawl develops within 24 hours of discontinuation. Having gone through a myriad of opioid withdrawal situations in the past (as stated above), I can say for me, the discontinuation syndrome from kratom is similar to natural and synthetic opioids.
 
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Can someone answer this for me?

Some people are like, "I take 20 grams of kratom 5 times a day." How on earth does one eat an entire bag of the disgusting tasting powder 5 times a day? There must be an alternative method to consuming it. Two spoon-fulls make me gag every single time and it's been a year now of adjusting to the taste. The taste still makes me want to not live anymore :(
 
Can someone answer this for me?

Some people are like, "I take 20 grams of kratom 5 times a day." How on earth does one eat an entire bag of the disgusting tasting powder 5 times a day? There must be an alternative method to consuming it. Two spoon-fulls make me gag every single time and it's been a year now of adjusting to the taste. The taste still makes me want to not live anymore :(

Are you kidding? You're needlessly torturing yourself with that repulsive taste? Buy 00 size vegetable capsules on Amazon and put the powder in those! They hold about 0.5 mg

Someone above mentioned darkening of skin from kratom, I have never had that ever.
 
Are you kidding? You're needlessly torturing yourself with that repulsive taste? Buy 00 size vegetable capsules on Amazon and put the powder in those! They hold about 0.5 mg

Someone above mentioned darkening of skin from kratom, I have never had that ever.

I actually asked about those! People told me not to because you'd have to buy too many and it would take too long to put the kratom in. Yes I have been suffering with the repulsive taste...

I've seen so many ridiculous things about kratom--like "I grew an arm" etc. Many people who claim they've encountered liver failure are also those who binge on methamphetamine for weeks so how can you tell it's the kratom :p Only side effect I've ever encountered is dizziness and nausea. Haven't even experienced depression--that's only from real opies from my personal experience.
 
I actually asked about those! People told me not to because you'd have to buy too many and it would take too long to put the kratom in. Yes I have been suffering with the repulsive taste...

I've seen so many ridiculous things about kratom--like "I grew an arm" etc. Many people who claim they've encountered liver failure are also those who binge on methamphetamine for weeks so how can you tell it's the kratom :p Only side effect I've ever encountered is dizziness and nausea. Haven't even experienced depression--that's only from real opies from my personal experience.

There's even a machine on Amazon that fills pills for you, but I never bought that. You're not taking that much powder at a time it seems. It won't take you long to put the powder in the capsules. You'll get the hang of it. Amazon has 00 pills in bulk, like 1,000 of them even for cheap. Get some. It's ridiculous to taste it for no reason. Even the smell makes me sick. I usually hold my breath when I'm dealing with it.
 
For some people, kratom isn't all that bad tasting. At first I hated it but nowadays I've grown used to it and actually don't mind the taste anymore. I sometimes use room tempt water, mix kratom in then sip it down. Just tastes like tea, just maybe a bit more bitter.

But obviously the taste does not agree with everyone. So yes, capsules or parachuting would be the way to go. I think those oblate disc things have gotten somewhat popular in the kratom community.
 
There's even a machine on Amazon that fills pills for you, but I never bought that. You're not taking that much powder at a time it seems. It won't take you long to put the powder in the capsules. You'll get the hang of it. Amazon has 00 pills in bulk, like 1,000 of them even for cheap. Get some. It's ridiculous to taste it for no reason. Even the smell makes me sick. I usually hold my breath when I'm dealing with it.

You guys saved my life. The taste made me suicidal.

It raised my tolerance to awful tasting food though haha.
 
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