Is opiate addiction really so bad?

[Zonxx]

After dicussing this at great length and having other folks there so that you unquestionably have informed consent and a means to essentially have multiple trip-sitters, have an opioid-naïve person you know, or you if you do not take narcotics, take one of someone's leftover DF-118s or Tikes or Vikes or itty bitty Codeine HCl tabs if they are in no pain and in a reasonably positive state of mind -- it will make them nauseous, maybe a little panicky, give them a headache and make them itchy, and it will do nothing for them subjectively, and they will not want to repeat it, because narcotics are much more subtle than C-Jam or alcohol or weed or meth, Shabu, caffeine, nicotine . . . There are endocrine, metabolic, neurological and perhaps psychological reasons for this, enough to add up to it being a near-determined outcome.

Therefore the 23 per cent overall figure seems within the realm of possibility if one believes that there really are people who take drugs because they think they are cool, because of "peer pressure" and the like, imitation, curiosity . . . Someone who knows that smack is a painkiller and euphoriant who seeks it out, especially if they cannot get something else like hydrocodone or oxycodone, is going to have different results.

A table from page 7 of The Chemistry of Mind Altering Drugs, by Daniel Perrine (1996) cites a survey of doctors involved in addiction treatment (the table is also reproduced in You Will Die: The Burden of Modern Taboos by Robert Arthur (Feral House, 2012) Page 226, and the 7th Edition (October 2017) of Inside Narcotics, Page 13) gives the addictiveness score of heroin, a different measure taking several things into account, as 80 on a scale from 0 to 100, about in the middle of the table and tied with snorted Crank, compared to 99 for nicotine, 98 for Ice, 97 for crack, 92 for IV Crystal Meth, 83 for Valium, 81 for alcohol, 82 for Reds, 71 for C-Jam, 70 for caffeine, 57 for Angel Dust, 22 for Weed, 20 for E, 19 for Shrooms, 16 for Acid, 15 for Big Chief . . . my guess is that if poppers were on this table it may be like 36 or thereabouts, White Tornado 95, fentanyl 20 or so, clomethiazole would be in the 60s somewhere, M would be 75 or so, codeine 50, DHC 70, hydrocodone 83, nicomorphine 80, dextromoramide 80, Ludes 85, air 100, methylphenidate 90, White Crosses 88, pentazocine 15, Ts & Blues 60, dextropropoxyphene 58, tripelennamine 50, Blue Velvet 85, model aeroplane glue 17, petrol 16, Ortho Weed B-Gon 8, Tabasco Sauce on your pecker 5, but your results may vary . . .

yeah results vary, man in the end it all depends on the individual, HOWEVER, faster acting and much shorter half life do have significant effect, i compare oxycodone to heroin somtimes, BUT at the same time it's not as gripping as dope can be, but it all varies you know i can't say i'm an addict however, i'm just dependent on opiates for pain, i've just explored the other routes to test if i could get better relief but in the end, Morphine is king for pain, and i find when you don't have pain and take an opiate it doesn't have as positive effects as when you do, like you stated they can have adverse reactions, if you have pain, the drug has somthing to work for and go to, but if you don't well, yep. but i very very rarely ever use these for recreation so, thats also a differing factor compared to those addicted to the feel/euphoria of an opiate, and i can understand that part but to me its more about simply having it in my system to allleviate issues, coke though i aswell use for pain, self medicated ofcourse, but believe it or not, if i'm on a 2-3 day binge, i rarely need to use my pain meds maybe an oxy once ever 12-16 hours but other than that, the coke offsets most of the wd (some lingers which is usualy the irritability somtimes or just uncomfortableness/anxiety) which i'll give in for with a low dose, but other than that coke is VERY effective for pain, the addictiveness however i don't know how high i'd rate it on a 0-100 maybe a 60-80 buuut, i mean you can get addicted to anything if you really go for it and end up hooked to a certain feeling, i think i am hooked to some degree on the relaxation feeling of opiates, but i consider this a side effect of using them. yeah occasionally i'll still get high from hydro/oxy etc but because thats not the main reason for taking them, i don't find myself ever thinking about it

 

[Olivia Nicole]

Even if that's true. 23% is a damn big risk when the consequences can be destroying your life. It's better odds than winning a single roll of the dice. (more than 1 in 5)

I'm not sure I trust that statistic anyway. I mean it's just a picture, with no reference to how it came to that percentage. I'm not saying it's false, just that I'd want more information before trusting it.

I think the stats, 23% - 25% come from the National Institute on Drug Abuse in the United States.

Addiction Statistics

Addiction is more common than many realize. Millions of Americans from all walks of life struggle with drug and alcohol addiction every day.

www.addictioncenter.com

 

[Nicomorphinist]

I think the stats, 23% - 25% come from the National Institute on Drug Abuse in the United States.
View attachment 16391

Addiction Statistics

Addiction is more common than many realize. Millions of Americans from all walks of life struggle with drug and alcohol addiction every day.

www.addictioncenter.com

So if people want to doubt that, it is that it is probably closer to 15 per cent maybe? They put it in the same box with science fiction about the "opioid epidemic"

Yes, people are being poisoned by narcotics with fentanyl in them, but that is a chemical warfare attack, not an "epidemic"
Nixon's people wanted to wipe out the heroin folks with etorphine, and Reagan Administration people wanted to get all of the drug people with potassium cyanide, something Osama bin Laden even contemplated and was talked out of it . . .

Or maybe the original idea was to make the heroin and pills really suck because fentanyl sucks and really isn't even a real general-purpose narcotic like morphine and heroin (it's a receptor-wise dirty general anaesthetic) and the numbers would go down further, but I doubt it. Even a small percentage of compliant pain patients, and a larger proportion of those using medication in a manner inconsistent with its labelling, have accidents with Duragesic, Durogesic, Chronogesic &c and die from it -- that was never a secret . . . the lozenges on a stick are actually safer -- a lot of militaries and first responders are using them now for bad injuries, burns &c -- tape the lolly to the patient's hand if you can, stick the other end betwixt their gum and jaw, and when they are narcotised enough to be out of pain, they take a short nap and the lolly falls out of their mouth, and it can be repeated prn . . .

 

[Juniper Bruhmomentius]

Important factor is also the avaibility of the drugs. In Finland subutex is the cheapest and most available opiate and the people who are addicted to it are often the lowest users. Reals opiates and oxy are more expensive and harder to get and their user base seems to be better of than subutex users.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Seed tea would be much harder of an addiction to maintain, as people literally avoid going on vacations or traveling because of the withdrawal being so crippling severe. I've decided to stay away from that stuff also because my tolerance isn't the largest and it could easily become dangerous for me to dabble in.

Also that it seems to be very hard to make it keep long enough to take it with one on vacation, aside from totally dehydrating it and turning it to powder and I suppose even that labour-intensive process could go sideways -- on the other hand, I have been able to keep poppy pod tea concentrated liquid in bottles at room temperature for a week or so . . . but the smell of rancid poppy seed tea is awful and I got enough requests from people at one point, and find it the most enjoyable way to take papaverine myself, that I worked on a long list of potential preservatives and so forth, and tried to see if certain pH and/or salinity levels could solve the problem, to no real avail, and for some reason, boiling it and rapidly cooling it twice does not seem to pasteurise it . . .

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Also that it seems to be very hard to make it keep long enough to take it with one on vacation, aside from totally dehydrating it and turning it to powder and I suppose even that labour-intensive process could go sideways -- on the other hand, I have been able to keep poppy pod tea concentrated liquid in bottles at room temperature for a week or so . . . but the smell of rancid poppy seed tea is awful and I got enough requests from people at one point, and find it the most enjoyable way to take papaverine myself, that I worked on a long list of potential preservatives and so forth, and tried to see if certain pH and/or salinity levels could solve the problem, to no real avail, and for some reason, boiling it and rapidly cooling it twice does not seem to pasteurise it . . .

Aka, don't drink seed tea unless you're in for a world of hurt I've seen too many people have horror stories about it and not a single person has recommended it. In fact, they all said that heroin addiction was easier to manage. I remember I wanted to try it and asked about it on BL and alot of people refused to give me proper info because they really were against me making it. I ended up somehow doing the wash wrong and the high was 45 minutes, while the entire week I kept waking up extremely itchy and out of it while vomiting for 5 days in a row (not exaggerating). I'm not sure how I messed up the batch, but it was pure side effects and 2% high. At that point, it was such an unpleasant experience I just threw out the seeds My urine was also disgusting brown for longer than a week. It's pretty toxic stuff even if you get it right it seems., there's just so many alkloids that your body can't properly process it unless you're used to it I guess. I believe the second wash is where it all went wrong... I let the seeds sit around before doing the second wash instead of doing both washes one after another. To be honest I don't think anyone with only oxy eperience should start brewing seed tea. It can be dangerous unless you have really solid opiate tolerance. Looking back on it, my body could only tolerate 30-40 mg oxycodone daily at the time so if I had brewed something really potent successfully it could've gone alot worse.

 

[Olivia Nicole]

I saw this recent post on Reddit, subreddit r/heroin. These are the testimonials that are more common than many people would like to believe.

 

[Xorkoth]

Reagan Administration people wanted to get all of the drug people with potassium cyanide, something Osama bin Laden even contemplated and was talked out of it

Reagan was such a fucking bastard who is a huge part of why the middle class is dying, I hate that he gets hailed as one of the great presidents.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Reagan was such a fucking bastard who is a huge part of why the middle class is dying, I hate that he gets hailed as one of the great presidents.

I was just thinking earlier about how he was one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. Truly a terrible man.

Apparently some guy back in 81 tried to shoot him based off his viewing of the film Taxi Driver. While lunatics are lunatics and killing is wrong, some part of me wishes he had succeeded in killing the fucker. Then he wouldn't have created half the crisis of modern American life. Or at least it might have delayed it.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Wouldn't IV administration long term-wise eventually not be possible anymore after a certain amount of years? Also, does shooting up promote worse withdrawals and a higher tolerance for opiates than say just snorting heroin?

I don't know the rate of heroin addiction destroying lives through needle use versus other methods, but it seems that shooting up feels the most euphoric so people tend to lose themselves more that way plus the complications of using a needle can be detrimental especially if you lack experience. I've also heard many times that addicts become addicted to the needle itself for whatever psychological reason. Maybe the association of the needle with feeling good.

 

[Xorkoth]

If poor techniques are used (and maybe if you're shooting up multiple times a day regardless even with perfect technique, but not sure as I have never shot), you will collapse one vein after another and have a lot of issues eventually. And yes, it produces a lot more tolerance and worse withdrawals than any other method.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Wouldn't IV administration long term-wise eventually not be possible anymore after a certain amount of years? Also, does shooting up promote worse withdrawals and a higher tolerance for opiates than say just snorting heroin?

I don't know the rate of heroin addiction destroying lives through needle use versus other methods, but it seems that shooting up feels the most euphoric so people tend to lose themselves more that way plus the complications of using a needle can be detrimental especially if you lack experience. I've also heard many times that addicts become addicted to the needle itself for whatever psychological reason. Maybe the association of the needle with feeling good.

It is certainly more economical as, for example, morphine and heroin are six times more effective IV versus oral because of the first-pass metabolism and so forth, and with good injection technique and new, sterile equipment each time and IM and SC injection training on top of it, and/or having a trained person assist, can indeed be minimally damaging to a long-term medicinal user, and an unsupervised one for that matter, which is one of the reasons harm reduction is so important . . .

In unsupervised use where supply could be a potential problem -- hell, in some places, pain patients are in that boat too now -- switching to injection is, caeteris paribus, not the best idea because it makes withdrawal more intense and use in general more dangerous -- I would say sudden withdrawal is 36 times worse with IV morphine, for example. If it is early in an unsupervised user's drugs career, and/or they have poor phlebotomy and overall injection technique, lots of trouble crops up quickly. For everyone, the uncertainty of dose, composition, and cuts in clandestinely-sourced powdered, liquid, or in some places even tabletted drugs also makes it a choice to avoid if at all practicable . . . using old equipment, unsterile equipment and technique, not to mention sharing artillery, have even worse problems, some of them fatal by themselves . . .

Extended-release oral tablets or capsules may lead to defaecating out some of the dose and the liver destroying quite a bit more, but also give the patient, unsupervised user, OST patient or whomever the option of a steady level through the day, which as a chronic pain patient I can tell you makes all the difference, though injectable narcotics for breakthrough pain are also needed in some cases; lots of folks get their medicine in ER and IR tablets and ampoules or phials, hypodermic tablets in the past, and then a stronger one or mixture for the worst cases . . .

Other narcotics range from half the oral dose of levorphanol, and maybe more of a dextromoramide SL dose, making it into the CNS to maybe 10 per cent of oxymorphone and there are a few which may have lower bioavailability. A weak ampromide synthetic around the 120 per cent the strength of codeine, propiram (Dirame and Algeril) which Bayer marketed for a while and was especially useful in dentistry, had the record I think with 97-99 per cent PO and SL bioavailability and 50 mg by injection being the same as 45 mg PO, both of these having the effect of 60 mg of codeine HCl.

The extended-release mechanisms in and of themselves do not impart new qualities to the drugs, which is fine for most people unless one and/or their pharmacist and/or doctor misunderstand this, which was indeed a potential (erroneous) take-away from some extended-release oxycodone literature at one point . . . The drop in abuse liability is solely due to the more stable serum level of drug making cravings and early withdrawal, as well as blasts of euphoria, much less likely during the day when the dose is correct, and as it turns out, the reduction in misuse potential and/or unintended consequences may not have been by a remarkable amount . . . then again, the manufacturers made abundantly clear that their tablets and capsules were not meant to be chewed, snorted, injected, chased, or powdered and shot up the arsehole or put into cigarettes or pipes of tobacco or weed . . . they even made sure that the patients were not waiting around for the pain relief to start by adding a small immediate-release mechanism by putting a fraction of the dose into the colouring on the tablets, and I think there was a way to achieve a similar effect with the capsules of beads.

There is also the question in cases of pain control whether it is maximally healthy in every single case to have the whole dose on board if it may not always be needed, but as the wages of a more cyclic drug level though the day often is breakthrough pain for the pain patient and craving for OST people, I would think at least 85 per cent of pain people and all of the maintenance people need the whole dose if only to smooth things out but also because tolerance is always an issue and patients would be driven to distraction and questionable compliance by having to fill up to their needed level with only immediate-release preparations of short-acting narcotics, The benefits of the extended-release effect are also intrinsic to methadone even via injection as well, as Nyswander and Dole noticed.

Dextromethorphan, ketamine, and proglumide are good agents for slowing the development of tolerance, and the former two and maybe the latter too broaden the analgesic action of narcotics, Nsaids, atypical analgesics and I have good results orally and topically and as trigger-point injections with ketamine added to local anaesthetics, dantrolene, and other things to help with nerve pain in particular.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Aka, don't drink seed tea unless you're in for a world of hurt I've seen too many people have horror stories about it and not a single person has recommended it. In fact, they all said that heroin addiction was easier to manage. I remember I wanted to try it and asked about it on BL and alot of people refused to give me proper info because they really were against me making it. I ended up somehow doing the wash wrong and the high was 45 minutes, while the entire week I kept waking up extremely itchy and out of it while vomiting for 5 days in a row (not exaggerating). I'm not sure how I messed up the batch, but it was pure side effects and 2% high. At that point, it was such an unpleasant experience I just threw out the seeds My urine was also disgusting brown for longer than a week. It's pretty toxic stuff even if you get it right it seems., there's just so many alkloids that your body can't properly process it unless you're used to it I guess. I believe the second wash is where it all went wrong... I let the seeds sit around before doing the second wash instead of doing both washes one after another. To be honest I don't think anyone with only oxy eperience should start brewing seed tea. It can be dangerous unless you have really solid opiate tolerance. Looking back on it, my body could only tolerate 30-40 mg oxycodone daily at the time so if I had brewed something really potent successfully it could've gone alot worse.

The brown urine makes me wonder if there was either something wrong with the seeds or an allergy or hypersensitivity issue to something -- not necessarily the two narcotics morphine and codeine in it . . . I actually use it these days for the papaverine and the positive effect of whole opium on irritable bowel, and in the past it did work well as a stop-gap and way to kick down to wash out some tolerance to medicinal narcotics . . . my negative results with traditional Lebanese, Polish and Croatian recipes for this as well as alkaloid washes done with laboratory equipment and reagent-grade citric acid have been limited to the trouble keeping it for long, even refrigerated, and a spot of hyponatraemia from fluid overload when I wasn't drinking or eating anything else along with it . . . I will usually have cheese, a couple of bananas, tomato or vegetable juice like V8, and a plate of salted lemon and lime slices with it to prevent that . . .

Actually, doing the wash with Everclear, vodka, gin, or šljivovica, adding some water, then heating to 80°C or so to effect fractional distillation to remove most or all of the alcohol may help a lot, though I have yet to determine which microorganism is responsible for the tea turning rancid so quickly . . .

 

[Xorkoth]

Also apparently some poppy seeds these days are from poppies bred for high thebaine content, grown by pharmaceutical companies to produce a lot of thebaine, which si the starting point for a lot of synthetic opiates like, I believe, fentanyl. High thebaine produces very undesirable effects.

Poppy seed tea is my favorite opioid because of how long it lasts and how heavby and euphoric it is... makes me feel high and fantastic for an entire 24 hours.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

The high-thebaine seeds are a strange shade of brown and are useless for cooking because they taste awful, and even as 41 per cent of the Tasmanian poppy crop a lot of years, the experiment with selling those seeds for cooking essentially blew up in whoever's face conceived it and to the best of my knowledge has not been attempted again, though regular and high-morphine cultivars can still range from 2 to 10 per cent thebaine alkaloids by weight latex equivalent . . .

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Also apparently some poppy seeds these days are from poppies bred for high thebaine content, grown by pharmaceutical companies to produce a lot of thebaine, which si the starting point for a lot of synthetic opiates like, I believe, fentanyl. High thebaine produces very undesirable effects.

Poppy seed tea is my favorite opioid because of how long it lasts and how heavby and euphoric it is... makes me feel high and fantastic for an entire 24 hours.

Glad you like it as my experience was pretty harsh haha. I think now that I remember I saved the seeds in a fridge for a day after the first wash and then did a second wash the next. I don't know why that would make me so unbelievably scratchy with no euphoria and have brown urine but whatever, I did something wrong. The seeds were from a really viable source.. I even checked BL with some people for the best seed sources and ordered from one of those places.

I'm just gonna not mess with poppy seed tea anymore. I'm used to kratom and pharmaceuticals so there's no point in me bringing it to a higher level especially with something that can whoop you or be unfathomably weak. Plus seed tea seems like more of a downer and sedating and I like the stimulant effects of pharmaceuticals. If I got the batch right I know I'd be too into it and start to drink it daily.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Glad you like it as my experience was pretty harsh haha. I think now that I remember I saved the seeds in a fridge for a day after the first wash and then did a second wash the next. I don't know why that would make me so unbelievably scratchy with no euphoria and have brown urine but whatever, I did something wrong. The seeds were from a really viable source.. I even checked BL with some people for the best seed sources and ordered from one of those places.

I'm just gonna not mess with poppy seed tea anymore. I'm used to kratom and pharmaceuticals so there's no point in me bringing it to a higher level especially with something that can whoop you or be unfathomably weak. Plus seed tea seems like more of a downer and sedating and I like the stimulant effects of pharmaceuticals. If I got the batch right I know I'd be too into it and start to drink it daily.

The second wash could possibly have given you an enhanced thebaine and oripavine dose because of a solubility differential, this could have happened in many methods of making the tea, so especially itching and twitchiness may have come from that, and there are the minor alkaloids too which are not all neutral or pleasant . . . I used to do up to three washes, now I just give it an extra 90 seconds and combine the steeping, swirling, and shaking methods to get the strongest possible first wash, and measure the pH of the water to make sure it is near the optimum morphine extraction pH of 6.5 . . .

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

The second wash could possibly have given you an enhanced thebaine and oripavine dose because of a solubility differential, this could have happened in many methods of making the tea, so especially itching and twitchiness may have come from that, and there are the minor alkaloids too which are not all neutral or pleasant . . . I used to do up to three washes, now I just give it an extra 90 seconds and combine the steeping, swirling, and shaking methods to get the strongest possible first wash, and measure the pH of the water to make sure it is near the optimum morphine extraction pH of 6.5 . . .

But how could my negative side effects have lasted 5 days in a row for a high that's supposed to last about 24ish hours or so? I forget the timing of it the effects. It's just strange that long after my high wore down I was suffering from extreme itchiness, being spaced out, and stomach irritation for that entire week. It also seems dangerous for me to try seed tea again for someone that typical doesn't go above 40 mg of pharmaceuticals on a given day. The effects peak in way later so there seems to be no good way to gauge it's strength, and if it's super potent I could be in the danger zone. I've come to fear the stuff after my soul was stolen by the itchiness from hell Maybe I was having some sort of allergic reaction to the more toxic alkloids in it as a user said above. My digestive system is pretty effective usually but I definitely felt like my body had trouble processing all the materials from the tea.

 

[JTemperance]

Other common (if not inevitable) problems with opiate addiction:

Diminished libido -- this tends to get worse the longer you stay on opiates (may not manifest in the first couple of years) and the heavier your dose, and it seems to affect men more strongly than women. This, in turn, can cause obvious relationship/marriage problems, though it can probably be overcome to some extent with commitment and/or other recreational drugs.

Dry mouth -- the severity of this problem may vary with the particular opiate used and the quantity, but as a general rule opiates dry out all your bodily secretions (like mucus and phlegm, hence their effectiveness as a cold remedy) including saliva. Though not as dramatically as with meth, this will cause dental problems over time, especially when combined with a lackadaisacal approach to brushing/flossing and an enhanced appetite for sweet foods/beverages, two things which also tend to come along with opiate addiction.

 

[Olivia Nicole]

Ja, there is the issue of narcotics being middling to peerless anti-depressants and anxiolytics inter alia, and unsupervised opioid users are in many cases simply 65 years behind and 30 years ahead of their time to see the research going on .

Dr. Nicomorphinist, what do you think of the comparative effectiveness of opiates for treating depression vs SSRIs?