• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
    Drugs

    Welcome Guest!

What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm only for the idea if it can be accessed by multiple people. It would be great if the new Xenforo forum software allowed that, otherwise we may need another option. Maybe a sticky of a short post including a link to the always updated document?
 
How do we keep a document anonymous though? I build websites for a few non-profits, and I could set a website up, but that is a little too trackable for my preferences. Google docs is also too easily tracked. What about a shared wiki page?
 
Glubrahnum said:
I did not have multiple ones, but the experience was so profound that it changed my attitude to other people permanently (for the better). e.g. I couldn't believe that downtown could be so beautiful - it was never so beautiful before! I went into a club. The music felt like it was enveloping me and carrying it in it wings. I could actually talk to strangers without being stiff as usual and I imagined that I felt what they felt as the conversation unfolded (or maybe I really did). I actually touched other people on the dancefloor (I would never go there nor do that before). A day prior, I was an antisocial mega nerd ...but a week after it I started to learn dancing.

From the pharmacological side it was 85mg of the racemic hydrochloride salt that was A/B purified with various solvents and column chromatography with extremely low yield. I won't even mention the testing regime. Think "nerd" and go figure.
Anyway, I dissolved that in orange juice for ingestion on an empty stomach and had a tingling comeup within half an hour, 5.5h duration, full mydriasis and associated optical consequences, strong trismus, higher pulse and BP, slight hyperthermia, heightened skin sensitivity, impotence, changed sense of taste. The physical comedown lasted 2 days and was not severe (just blue). However I think I experienced cognitive slowdown for approximately 3 weeks afterwards because I could not solve a technical problem that I should be able to solve normally in a day, or I was just distracted with the newly discovered emotional dimension and could not concentrate.

...all that from 85mg in a 85kg male first-timer....and I still remember every minute of it after all this time.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing. First time I had MDMA, probably a similar dose to yours, was at a rave following the first night of a festival. I didn't really notice much from it - I was awake all night, but probably would have been anyway. It was over breakfast the following morning that I was laughing a whole lot and felt fucking awesome. I had an afterglow similar to what I experience after a good acid trip.

The next night, I purchased more from some blonde girls with eyes that could light up a room. They were noticeably loved-up, hugged me then walked off before I'd even paid them for their drugs. Just looking at them made me want to be on what they were on.

That was my first real MDMA experience. Me and a few close friends sat talking until sunrise. I felt like I was on a cloud floating over some utopian island as angel-eyed punters from the festival drifted all around us. I really felt like something, something very meaningful, had happened.. and not just to me. I went home after that weekend feeling like there some hope for the world.

I wish, that like you, I had have just left it to that one experience.

I have reports written for basically every MDMA experience I had over the next few years. Never unpleasant; some nights were spent on the couch chatting, other times we'd be dancing all day and night at festivals. I get about as much variance in effect from MDMA as I do from pharmaceutical opioids, benzos and stimulants, as well as every other psychedelic I've taken and also weed.

I put the variability down to dose, set and setting and with clandestine manufactured drugs, purity is a factor and also the care that was put into manufacturing clean product.

I don't think there is as much weight to the first-time user thing as you put on it. I know several people who didn't really 'get it' the first time.
 
NZ had a 20k music festival last night news report from goers indicate people were on either good mdma or meth and cathiones.

Teens reported most people were friendly and touching indicating some good mdma then the other people who were anrgy psychos on meth fighting people the crowd seemed split.

Mabye since this country is small what gets in as mdma or cooked here in last few years is getting better and better and mainly magic mdma unlike the previous decade where you needed serious contacts overseas to have the good stuff.

If any idiot teens can get magic mdma here then it should be more common than bad shit over the world
 
Kaden_Nite said:
I went home after that weekend feeling like there some hope for the world.
Click to expand...
Yep, that must be MDMA alright, it has been known for inducing grand illusions in susceptible individuals.
Kaden_Nite said:
I don't think there is as much weight to the first-time user thing as you put on it. I know several people who didn't really 'get it' the first time.
Click to expand...

I strongly agree with that, and I really detest that assertion- "It will never be like your first time...."
A number of us old skoolers have expressed the same feelings on that. Myself and others believe that the magic is there to be had almost indefinitely given the right product used sensibly.
 


The most common form of PMK Glycidate (ethyl ester) is produced on an industrial scale from piperonal and ethyl 2-chloropropionate, and ethyl 2-chloropropionate IS typically produced in enantiopure form (by nature of being made from natural L-alanine), so this would add credence to your theory that one form of MDMA would be favored from one-pot PMK Glycidate chemistry as it seems reasonable to expect that the PMK Glycidate made from enantiopure ethyl 2-chloropropionate will possess an enantiomeric excess itself. I am unaware of what one-pot reaction it is that said chemists would be using, but interesting nonetheless, might try to look up/figure out later if I'm not too busy.
 
Last edited:
The proposed chemistry from PMK glycidate is a one pot multi step reaction where the intermediate ketone is formed, and then aminated. the ketone is guaranteed to be achiral 100%

The PMK glycidate to PMK reaction is either basic or acid hydrolysis to the free acid or salt then protonation of the oxirane oxygen, ring opening to the benzylic cation, followed by decarboxylation to give an enol which rearranges to a ketone (PMK). There is of course an interesting alternative reaction pathway where the oxirane opens the other way, giving a tertiary cation intermediate and resulting in a propiophenone rather than a phenylacetone, this would give M-Alpha on reductive amination. The benzylic cation is so hugely more stable than the tertiary carbocation so that this should be a minor product but stranger things can happen.

It is quite clear that the acid catalysed reaction could be combined with reductive amination in one pot because the reaction products would be excess acid if liquid acid is used, unreacted glycidic acid, methanol or ethanol and some abnormal ring opened glycidic acid compounds none of which would prevent reductive amination of the PMK present. There doesn't seem to be much advantage to doing it one pot and it seems likely that the manufacturers are isolating or extracting the crude PMK from the PMK glycidate reaction.

The forensic markers for reductive amination are still most commonly found post 2010 when the PMK glycidate route became popular suggesting that the intermediate is still PMK but that this is made from PMK glycidate starting material. Simon Brandt is probably the person to ask as he has spent years messing about with forensic analysis of illicit drug trace markers.

There is no obvious alternative reaction path from PMK glycidate to MDMA that doesn't involve going through an achiral intermediate.

Therefore it is likely that the enantiomer hypothesis is still a wild goose chase.

there remains some interesting possibilities on the chemical side.

It may be possible to screw up the PMK glycidate synthesis to give something that is not MDMA but that passes reagent tests and is close enough to fool the testing organisations. Actually that is not as unlikely as it sounds because they don't really care enough to look very hard.
Likewise It may also be possible to screw up helional synthesis to give something that likewise is not MDMA but passes reagent tests.

The whole MDMA from one Wacker variation is weaker or whatever nonsense from the old Hive Bees is bull, the reason is simple Wacker is known to produce things other than PMK, and these impurities are carried all the way through the synthesis into the end product. Very few bees had the equipment ability or skills to analyse their product and so impure product or completely the wrong product is clearly possible. MDMA is MDMA however it is made. that said products sold as MDMA could be anything.

TBH though I don't care enough about this to dig any deeper.

Finally be wary of taking anything that Mike Power writes at face value, or trying to add in logical conclusions. He is a journalist first and foremost and providing entertainment is his game. He has very limited understanding of the subtleties of what he sees but he writes a good story. He used to post on BL, maybe he can post the route from PMK glycidate to MDMA he has in this thread and people would know whether there is any chance of a chiral product being in wide circulation. It is no great secret, anyone with the skills to do this could easily figure it out all for themselves. The answer is going to be disappointing.
 
vecktor said:
The proposed chemistry from PMK glycidate is a one pot multi step reaction where the intermediate ketone is formed, and then aminated. the ketone is guaranteed to be achiral 100%

The PMK glycidate to PMK reaction is either basic or acid hydrolysis to the free acid or salt then protonation of the oxirane oxygen, ring opening to the benzylic cation, followed by decarboxylation to give an enol which rearranges to a ketone (PMK). There is of course an interesting alternative reaction pathway where the oxirane opens the other way, giving a tertiary cation intermediate and resulting in a propiophenone rather than a phenylacetone, this would give M-Alpha on reductive amination. The benzylic cation is so hugely more stable than the tertiary carbocation so that this should be a minor product but stranger things can happen.

It is quite clear that the acid catalysed reaction could be combined with reductive amination in one pot because the reaction products would be excess acid if liquid acid is used, unreacted glycidic acid, methanol or ethanol and some abnormal ring opened glycidic acid compounds none of which would prevent reductive amination of the PMK present. There doesn't seem to be much advantage to doing it one pot and it seems likely that the manufacturers are isolating or extracting the crude PMK from the PMK glycidate reaction.

The forensic markers for reductive amination are still most commonly found post 2010 when the PMK glycidate route became popular suggesting that the intermediate is still PMK but that this is made from PMK glycidate starting material. Simon Brandt is probably the person to ask as he has spent years messing about with forensic analysis of illicit drug trace markers.

There is no obvious alternative reaction path from PMK glycidate to MDMA that doesn't involve going through an achiral intermediate.

Therefore it is likely that the enantiomer hypothesis is still a wild goose chase.

there remains some interesting possibilities on the chemical side.

It may be possible to screw up the PMK glycidate synthesis to give something that is not MDMA but that passes reagent tests and is close enough to fool the testing organisations. Actually that is not as unlikely as it sounds because they don't really care enough to look very hard.
Likewise It may also be possible to screw up helional synthesis to give something that likewise is not MDMA but passes reagent tests.

The whole MDMA from one Wacker variation is weaker or whatever nonsense from the old Hive Bees is bull, the reason is simple Wacker is known to produce things other than PMK, and these impurities are carried all the way through the synthesis into the end product. Very few bees had the equipment ability or skills to analyse their product and so impure product or completely the wrong product is clearly possible. MDMA is MDMA however it is made. that said products sold as MDMA could be anything.

TBH though I don't care enough about this to dig any deeper.

Finally be wary of taking anything that Mike Power writes at face value, or trying to add in logical conclusions. He is a journalist first and foremost and providing entertainment is his game. He has very limited understanding of the subtleties of what he sees but he writes a good story. He used to post on BL, maybe he can post the route from PMK glycidate to MDMA he has in this thread and people would know whether there is any chance of a chiral product being in wide circulation. It is no great secret, anyone with the skills to do this could easily figure it out all for themselves. The answer is going to be disappointing.
Click to expand...


I know when Helional MDA comes in it's that brown dirt, it's $5k a kilo on the DN. It's def been confirmed helional.. I don't know what a curits reaction what look like for MDMA... I know they also SOMEHOW made MDp2p from helional via a novel rearrangement but how I have no idea.
 
vecktor said:
There is of course an interesting alternative reaction pathway where the oxirane opens the other way, giving a tertiary cation intermediate and resulting in a propiophenone rather than a phenylacetone, this would give M-Alpha on reductive amination.
Click to expand...
MAPLHA was on the list of class of isobaric compounds, that vash445 has discussed around this post.

Also, a related compound ( PubChem CID 85777948 ) is documented to elute in some chromatographies and to fragment in mass spectroscopy, in the same manner as 3,4-MDMA.
 
Last edited:
Glubrahnum said:
MAPLHA was on the list of class of isobaric compounds, that vash445 has discussed around this post.

Also, a related compound ( PubChem CID 85777948 ) is documented to elute in some chromatographies and to fragment in MS spectroscopy, in the same manner as 3,4-MDMA.
Click to expand...
the first compound M Alpha elutes at different time and has a different fragmentation pattern, however it does have similar fragments but in different abundance. It wouldn't fool an analyst who had sufficient knowledge or experience.

The second compound whilst it co-elutes in the specific conditions of the paper, so what! (I would like to say the paper is written in a way that doesn't give much confidence in the authors skills) and has a similar fragmentation it is sufficiently different not to hit on the database <80% RSD or fool a skilled analyst. there is also no way that the compound is commonplace 2,3 methylenedioxy is not a common substitution pattern in any cheap industrial material, and it cannot arise from heliotropin piperonal or PMK (MDP2P) under any conceivable chemistry. Forget that compound as a possibility.

There is another compound however that might fit the criteria, that is the compound derived by reductive amination of helional, 3-( 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl) 2-methyl propanamine, Isobaric with MDMA. it will pass marquis and mandelin and it has completely (to me) unknown pharmacology, I would guess it is a mild sedative like the other phenylbutanamines but who knows. I can't be bothered to look up whether it is in the paper, I would expect the fragmentation pattern under EI to be different to MDMA because of the different side chain fragment and the primary amine.

there are a lot of compounds with the molecular formula C11H15NO2 all of which are isobaric with MDMA I would guess tens of thousands. having the same molecular weight is not something special. The paper you reference is pretty dumb because no one is going to identify a compound by the molecular ion especially with hard ionisation like 50 eV EI GCMS, the fragmentation is going to tell the analyst what is there. Propylimine m/z 58 is the base peak with MDMA like compounds along with the methylenedioxyphenyl cation at 135 however the 2,3 substitution is distinguishable from 3,4 and this is well documented.

If you have 20 years experience with GCMS it wouldn't fool you if you had a reference sample of MDMA under the same GC and MS conditions.
 
Last edited:
This is what vash445 suggested:
Propanamine.png

The real question is whether the official testing centers are fooled by these compounds, not whether they can be differentiated by someone determined and diligent.
 
Last edited:
Who is working at these testing centers? Are they likely to be people with 20+ years experience, or are they more likely to be younger volunteers or trainees?

Seems like a pertinent question to post to any of these testing centers would be: "What do you do when a sample looks almost identical to MDMA, but there is some slight variation, and you have no other match in your database? Do you mark the product as MDMA, or do you mark the product as unknown?"
 
indigoaura said:
Who is working at these testing centers? Are they likely to be people with 20+ years experience, or are they more likely to be younger volunteers or trainees?

Seems like a pertinent question to post to any of these testing centers would be: "What do you do when a sample looks almost identical to MDMA, but there is some slight variation, and you have no other match in your database? Do you mark the product as MDMA, or do you mark the product as unknown?"
Click to expand...
Chemists who have considerable experince in the field they send samples to very professional drug labs
 
Glubrahnum said:
This is what vash445 suggested:
View attachment 15447

The real question is whether the official testing centers are fooled by these compounds, not whether they can be differentiated by someone determined and diligent.
Click to expand...
easy way to find out, buy the compound from cayman or bio and send it to the testing centres saying it is MDMA. I wager you will be disappointed with the performance of the testers. Energy control certainly have issues others probably also have issues.
In general forensic analysts are those that are not good enough to get jobs in pharma, look at the pay differences between forensic and pharma, you get what you pay for.
 
vecktor said:
easy way to find out, buy the compound from cayman or bio and send it to the testing centres saying it is MDMA. I wager you will be disappointed with the performance of the testers. Energy control certainly have issues others probably also have issues.
In general forensic analysts are those that are not good enough to get jobs in pharma, look at the pay differences between forensic and pharma, you get what you pay for.
Click to expand...
this is true when i graduated in chemistry i was pretty heavily affected by drugs and just did meager jobs with HPLC all day for minimum wage like a lab monkey for years. Those who are doing these jobs are usually fresh graduates that didn't have the brains to go onto masters or phd.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top