indigoaura
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MDMA Moderators:
What is wrong with the MDMA available today?
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Glubrahnum
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No, in Greek "βάρος", "βαρύς" = "weight", "heavy", so "isobaric" means "equally heavy" ( Δm = 0 )
In this case, "m" refers to the molar mass of a chemical compound. For MDMA that is 193g/mole.
The words "Barycenter" and "Baryon" have similar etymologies.
Also, in nuclear physics "isobars" are atoms of different chemical elements with different atomic numbers but the same atomic mass .
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Glubrahnum
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If the MDA was manufactured from Helional then it could suffer from a similar problem as MDMA manufactured from it. Actually, Helional is a better precursor for MDA than for MDMA.
The details of it are described in the last weeks of this thread.
There are 2 ways thou to MDMA from Helinol thou. One is a curtis rearrangement going via a azide. The other is Somebody in australia made MDP2P from helional but it is VERY VERY hidden I cann't get the article. Eitherway MDA is Much eaiser due to the "known" semi one pot method of MDA via the oxime and nitrile . ANd YES MehDa exists someone complained I forget where that there kilo of MDA from the darknet had this 2-chloro-4,5-methylenedioxyamphetamine or similar as a major impurity and made the MDA inactive
The DARK Side of Total Synthesis: Strategies and Tactics in Psychoactive Drug Production
The Shulze lab recently published an MDMA synthesis that features a Curtius rearrangement (Scheme 27).89Treatment of helional (157) with sodium propionate and propionic anhydride resulted in a Perkin reaction to give unsaturated carboxylic acid 158. Olefin hydrogenation followed by acyl chloride synthesis gave (±)-159. At this point, generation of the acyl azide and subsequent Curtius rearrangement provided an isocyanate. Exposure of this intermediate to t-BuOK gave the corresponding Boc carbamate. N-Methylation followed by acid mediated Boc deprotection provided (±)-MDMA (129) which was isolated as its oxalate salt.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/sc33y9cvobbg66t/schulze2010.pdf/file
The synthesis of 3, 4-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (MDP2P) from helional
The aim of this project is to investigate the synthesis of MDP2P from helional via a novel synthetic pathway. Principal researcher: Sean Davis Research supervisor: Dr Peter Culshaw Collaborators: Peter Vallely, ACIC Dr Sarah Cresswell, Griffith University
Short Communication: A Novel Synthesis of 3,4-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (MDP2P) from Helional.
Article · July 2017 with 590 Reads · Download citation
Sean Davis
7.71- Queensland Health
Hilopsilo
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I'd say MDA lacks the magic euphoria that MagicDMA has in the same way that MehDMA does, but its not as pronounced or maybe that MDA has other magical factors to it that make up for it, I find MDA has this earthy, erotic vibe to it. MehDMA feels lacking in all departments, no spark to it.
I've had MDA 2, maybe 4 times, 1 time was very magical visual experience, i remember preferring it over MDMA for the energy right away. Walked home from the show that ended at 4am, probably 3-4 hours walk and the visuals were equivalent to if not stronger than some LSD trips I've had, but these visuals crept in after the roll sort of ended. But it didn't let me sleep til noon the next day, lasted waaaaaaay longer than MDMA. i remember laying in bed in a delirious daze trying to sleep for hours and hours going in and out of weird waking dream states. felt like speedier, trippier, sweatier MDMA, as people described to me. Felt like MDA was as magical MDMA, but maybe not as purely euphoric. (reagent tested as MDA). Clear, colorless, scentless.
(the next two times I believe I was just sold plain MehDMA with maybe a small amount of MDMA mixed in, incomplete feeling of euphoria, little or no visuals, and lacked the hangover of the MDA I had the first time. Wasn't as energetic as the first time. (both times only had test for MDxx). neither were clear, tan or brown)
The 4th time I had it, reagent tested and vouched for as very strong, I took it after taking LSD, visuals came on very strong, incredibly stoning, literally melted into the earth. Completely lacked the energy of the first time I had it, girlfriend's first time with it instantly called it "melty molly". Roll was short from it though, and it dropped off abruptly, peak was basically blackout though. Had a bit of the stimmed out hangover feeling of the first time which came on much quicker, overall shorter experience. Lovier and lower energy than the first time, Surely the LSD impacted the experience.Clear, colorless, not sure if scentless.
in retrospect, my first experience is sort of what I imagine pure s-isomer MDA would be like, and last would have been what I pure imagine pure r-isomer MDA would be.
I also notice it is more common for MDA to be clear, scentless translucent crystals than MDMA, that was the form I had it in but at the same time there is a lot of that darker colored "sass" which I've personally never taken.
"If I'm not mistaken, if you obtain large enough MDMA crystals, and they are both colourless and very transparent, there is a good chance that it is mostly isomerically pure as light would refract non-linearly through a racemic mixture, creating a cloudy and only translucent appearance on the crystal, whereas a more pure isomer would have a much clearer and more transparent crystal since the light is refracting through identically oriented crystalline structure." - Reddit
Is there any truth in this? I know stereoisomers have been discussed at length but haven't heard this mentioned.
EDIT: Is this one of you all?
"As you can see two people have posted the BlueLight thread. I myself have been with that thread for a long time now and can shed some light on this topic.
Was the MDMA different in the early to mid 90’s?? The answer to that question is most likely, Yes. Was it better? Now that is arguable and I’ll explain why in a minute.
In the late 80’s as popularity of MDMA was booming the production wasn’t coming close to meeting the ever growing demand. The production shifted over to the already established illegal chemists who were synthesizing amphetamine at the time.
The route these speed chemists were using was the “Leuckart.” It only takes minor tweaking for thiscroute to also be used on MDMA. So the speed chemists took up MDMA as well. (It’s my theory the the old famed ox blood speed came from this route, as well as the legendary Uncle Toms Pink Sassafras.)
The Leuckart is a dirty process known to produce psychoactive impurities. It was these impurities that altered the effects and gave the 90’s MDMA something special.
Looking at research articles on synthesis route trends and piecing things together best we can, it appears the use of the Leuckart correlated perfectly with the time which MDMA was supposedly “better” and went out of use exactly when it changed.
Further evidence to support the change is the change in the Marquis color reaction. It actually used to go a dark cobalt blue to black, this is seen on the very first EZ test color chart. As well as reading threads from the 90’s, it’s clear that good MDMA according to kids back then tested blue to black.
Once the synthesis route changed in the late 90’s (mostly due to better yields and more pure product from other routes) the reaction went from blue to black, to purple to black. This caused MUCH confusion as the color chart showed MDE to do this, and with the added change of effects in the MDMA it had people baffled.
In fact, one Hive thread I read the guy claimed he had to synthesize his own MDXX using Leuckart to get that old school feeling he had been missing from the recent change of MDMA.
If you notice there has been one other big synthesis trend change over the years. This occurred in late 00’s when they burned all the safrole in SE Asia. This is also another time in MDMA history where people claim the MDMA changed in effect. This is when PMK glycidate made from piperanol became the new way to go.
It should be noted that during this second major synthesis trend change, the Marquis reagent reaction changed again. Nowadays it’s very common to find MDMA that will go straight black with zero purple when that was rarely if ever the case before 2010.
Now after that long winded response.. To answer, was it better?
Well MDMA back then somehow was more potent mg/mg, seemed to have a slightly longer duration, and ALOT more energy. On the flip side, the MDMA back then completely wrecked you in the week after compared to the sometimes afterglows we get today. Not sure if I’d trade the clean pure feeling I get after for a bit more potency and speed but each to their own. Also it appears the MDMA back then really burnt people out, E-tards were much more a thing at that time.
I believe the MDMA did change but I also feel tolerance and rose tinted glasses have something to do with it as well.
MDMA is MDMA. In a perfect world yes, but in the world of illicit drugs worrying about purity hurts the bottom line. And now with the market moving from pills to loose product, leaving behind impurities adds more weight and more money." -
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Hilopsilo
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Sorry for double post but tell me this has been posted before?! http://www.icadtsinternational.com/files/documents/2007_271.pdf
"Chemical profiling of ecstasy is an important process in the control of the international trade in these products. 28 ecstasy pills seized by the police in and around the city of Valladolid (Spain) have been analyzed in this current study. All the samples contained 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, although in different proportions. The presence of 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine regioisomers was detected in 9 of the 28 samples analyzed. KEY WORDS: Regioisomers, MDMA, Clandestine ecstasy"
???!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!
"Of the 28 samples analyzed, 9 were found to have high impurity levels of compounds with an equal molecular weight to MDMA (regioisomers of the substance) but different structure and thus having a different effect on the organism. These compounds are often due to a total lack of quality control, in both the products used in the synthesis (precursors, solvents and other reactives) and the development of the process itself (insufficient reaction time, etc.)."
I'm shitting myself, ED or any other site has NEVER reported a sample containing any of this yet these guys detect them in NINE out of 28 random samples?! ED and the lot are surely missing this bullshit
"Chemical profiling of ecstasy is an important process in the control of the international trade in these products. 28 ecstasy pills seized by the police in and around the city of Valladolid (Spain) have been analyzed in this current study. All the samples contained 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, although in different proportions. The presence of 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine regioisomers was detected in 9 of the 28 samples analyzed. KEY WORDS: Regioisomers, MDMA, Clandestine ecstasy"
???!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!
"Of the 28 samples analyzed, 9 were found to have high impurity levels of compounds with an equal molecular weight to MDMA (regioisomers of the substance) but different structure and thus having a different effect on the organism. These compounds are often due to a total lack of quality control, in both the products used in the synthesis (precursors, solvents and other reactives) and the development of the process itself (insufficient reaction time, etc.)."
I'm shitting myself, ED or any other site has NEVER reported a sample containing any of this yet these guys detect them in NINE out of 28 random samples?! ED and the lot are surely missing this bullshit
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Glubrahnum
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That would be Theory #5.
That paper was from 2007 when MehDMA was not an issue yet. The synth methods have changed since then, e.g. see vash445's recent post.
Also, there are more than 10 MDMA regioisomers known.
@indigoaura: All regioisomers are isobaries, too....but not vice-versa.
Unfortunately they did not identify any of these regioisomers.
That's what the Aalberg and Awad papers are about. Apparently, these regioisomers are easy to confuse with 3,4-MDMA when using the analytical techniques described in these papers.
That does not mean that these regioisomers are impossible to resolve - it's just that dedicated and dilligent scientists are needed for it ...or different analytical techniques and sample derivatizations.
What we really don't know is what the physiological and psychoactive effects of these regioisomers are.
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Hilopsilo
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Welp, more as-credible-as-info-comes-from-randoms-on-internet to throw in that bin
Regardless of who was doing what when, and I'm still not sure I buy how sure you all are about what synth methods were being used at what times, but thats not a hill im willing to die on lol. Surely there is overlap and uncertainty, all we have to go off of is what people who sound like they know what they're talking about on the internet are saying. I'm not saying its not credible, but that its a somewhat narrow view into the world of the illegal underground production of a very popular drug.
Was it a problem in 2007? I don't know, as you say synth methods change so likely these isobary profiles do too and/or how common they are. The problem could have cropped up around then and just gotten worse til now, or people have finally gotten suspicious of chalking it up to magic loss. Maybe these isobaries are always present and now synth methods create way more of them tipping the scales to a noticeable difference in acute effects?
Sadly no, while the paper is good as its easy to understand as a layman, it feels lacking in details
Those papers are on the subject, but both are purely analytical, this paper actually tells us these compounds ARE present in a hefty chunk (9/28 is a lot if you ask me) of the albeit small sample size. ED has tens of thousands of submissions and nothing on this, regardless of changes in production theyd surely see SOMETHING. I think this confirms our question of whether they are going far enough to detect them at ED; clearly not.
TLDR; it felt like other studies we found confirmed the existence of such compounds in a general sense, but this study gives hard evidence that they can actually be present in mdma samples, we know they're there. I bet the MehDMA just has a high percentage of regioisomer(s) that have crappy effects compared to the real mccoy
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epic11
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Interesting. Im just gonna sit back with the drugsdata findings and see what happens.
AutoTripper
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I would dispute that personally I'm pretty sure I encountered MehDMA in 2005. The fact that the study was done back in 2007 explains why there was actually quite a low proportion of these regioisomer impurities because I would have expected it to be much higher currently if this is directly linked to the problem.
Maybe it was not a widely known issue or properly identified and appraised by 2007 but it certainly would have been an arising issue.
All this chemistry stuff has gone over my head but when I look at that little summary of that 2007 study and report I have to say it strongly resonates as being potential relevant.
But I know not unlike you smart chemists, I go by feeling often with a loosely formed but not logicless logic running in my subconscious.
Haha, I think I'll just sit back and enjoy my popcorn shall I?!
Glubrahnum
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Wasn't 2005 the time of the piperazine scourge?
Anyway, I base my estimates of the evolution of contaminant content on reports like this.
As far as synth routes go, I get my info from papers about novel routes like vash445 just quoted at the end of his last post and from forensic reports, although I admit that G_Chem and old hive bees have the evolution of synth routes researched better than I.
To be certain whether ED and other testing centers are doing a good job, some of these compounds would need to be ordered and presented to them for testing as MDMA. Most of these compounds are legal to buy, but check your local analogue laws before you do.
Anyway, I base my estimates of the evolution of contaminant content on reports like this.
As far as synth routes go, I get my info from papers about novel routes like vash445 just quoted at the end of his last post and from forensic reports, although I admit that G_Chem and old hive bees have the evolution of synth routes researched better than I.
To be certain whether ED and other testing centers are doing a good job, some of these compounds would need to be ordered and presented to them for testing as MDMA. Most of these compounds are legal to buy, but check your local analogue laws before you do.
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Hilopsilo
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Not saying any of you have it wrong or anything, I just figure if 1/3 of mdma in 2007 had Regi's due to, as the study says, uncontrollable clandestine methods and precursors, im sure that still holds true with whatever they're doing now. And as they say in the study, its not as if all 9 sample had the same regi, some even had multiple of them, who knows what synth route makes which ones and what factors contribute. Maybe in 2007 those regi profiles happened to be similar to mdma in effects so nobody noticed? Maybe we have new ones now? In greater concentration and less ideal effects? Sooooo many variables. I think that study is on the money
Piperazines were common up until DNMs became a thing from my perspective, so like 2012-ish? I had the misfortune of consuming a piperazine pressed pill in 2011, it was an AWFUL experience
Piperazines were common up until DNMs became a thing from my perspective, so like 2012-ish? I had the misfortune of consuming a piperazine pressed pill in 2011, it was an AWFUL experience
epic11
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Yea i hear you. I understand. In regards to the piperize/methylone mayhem. that was all like 2008-2010. Once people got wise to that, a new challenger appeared and it became less likely to sell/find that bs pipes/methylone .
Glubrahnum
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So, how many of you would be interested in crowdfunding the purchase of of these compounds with a cryptocurrency ?
Most of them are legal, and they can be used to test the Test Centers once and for all
Most of them are legal, and they can be used to test the Test Centers once and for all
indigoaura
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@Hilopsilo Thanks for that link. I will forward it on to the Drugs Data people as well. I have not ever seen it before. It does seem to provide evidence that the regioisomers have ended up in ecstasy, and that it has been documented before.
I personally noted the change in my area in 2005-2006. This correlated with a time that a major distributor in the area was busted, and other distributors moved into the area. So, there was a definite change that occurred at that time. So, I think the MehDMA was around earlier in certain regions.
indigoaura
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@Glubrahnum I am not opposed to crowdfunding, if I can somehow do it anonymously.
indigoaura
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I also think it is interesting that the article @Hilopsilo posted presents a new combination theory - that the regioisomers ARE the contaminants. They hide in the product because they share the same mass, but potentially have greater affinity for receptors etc and are active contaminants that alter the experience significantly.
epic11
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Use monero.
epic11
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Thats what i read into as well. Good point. I havent been this excited in this thread for some time.
Hilopsilo
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So, how many of you would be interested in crowdfunding the purchase of of these compounds with a cryptocurrency ?
Most of them are legal, and they can be used to test the Test Centers once and for all
Sure, I think that combined with that study would basically be case closed. Why would crypto need to be involved? Unless these compounds are readily sold on DNM? if so that adds another layer of weirdness here
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