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I can't handle stupid people anymore

This problem is made worse yet when people are really only suffering from an illusion of superiority. People that are too stupid to even come to that level of self-awareness of their own shortcomings is why we have people like Trump who truly believes he is a genius. He must be a master at resolving cognitive dissonance at least.

Superiority complexes are a problem. They are usually rooted in inferiority complexes. What I'm talking about is the objective damage that people's ignorance is doing to the world. It is visible, it is measurable. It's not merely me being frustrated and looking for problems. I see utterly stupid and selfish behaviour exhibited on full display on a daily basis, at every socioeconomic level, and being driven from the most stupid ideologoies imaginable. The ideologies are all based on self-interest. Bougie wealthy people are actually the worst, they are trashing the planet at an accelerated rate with their excesses. But at least they aren't breeding rampantly.

It seems even worse when people start seeing socio-economic power as equating to intelligence.

You're conflating two different things here. I never said that stupid people = poor people. I said that people should not be having children they can't afford, and if they feel entitled to do that then they should be forced to take anti-reproductive measures.

There are two problems here:
1) The socioeconomic problem of people not being able to afford their breeding habits.
2) The number of humans on this planet, which is not just related to poor people.

Who determines this? The one-child policy fine is not the same as 'paying' to have children. Its a ridiculous beauracratic load of hot air.

Again, reading comprehension problems. If you get fined a huge amount of money for having a child without authorization, then people who can afford to pay the fine will have more children. That is the payment that I'm referring to. It doesn't offset the environmental damage and carbon footprint of those extra people, but at least it gives money to a system that could theoretically do something about it one day.

Some people are inherently 'low ability'. They may simple not have the capacity to ever come to the informed decisions that society expects of them. To those people, an ethical society holds out a helping hand and assists in bringing all members to approximate parity. There is an evil in punishing people for facts of their life they have no control over, such as intelligence. Someone who is born with a low intellect shouldn't be treated poorly as a result. Degrading the weakest members of society is far from intelligent anyway. We should always provide welfare to those weaker than ourselves if we hold out any hope that this welfare will be provided to us when we are old and weak too. And a plain fact of life is that we all become old, weak, burdens to society at some point; there will always come a point where you cannot contribute to society anymore. Perhaps we should pay a fine when we get over the age of 80 so we don't become too much of a burden to the rich.

You're going off on a tangent. I'm not saying there should be no social services. I myself have used social services during dark times to get myself back to on track to full time work. A society that doesn't help its weakest members is doomed. However, that looks different than people who won't stop breeding. If you're too stupid to stop having babies that you can't afford or take care of, then the government should control you.

People who are down and out should not be having kids. They should be taking care of themselves and maybe one day if they get into an affordable place, they can have kids.

Our welfare system incentivizes breeding. It's wrong and has to stop.

Wow, what a disgusting perspective. And utterly ignorant too, tbh- when people suffer in a large society like the ones we all exist in, the effects are never isolated to just themselves. Thank god people with such heartless views aren't in power.

It's not heartless, it's self-protective. If I cared about the suffering of all of humanity, I would never be able to focus on the things I have actual control over, such as my own life and betterment, which in turn helps the world to be a better place.

You're reading too much into the meaning of what I'm saying because you're too busy being outraged.

Plenty of parents have kids they cant afford but find a way weathers its working as a waitress all night or something else you can bet those kids will be more appreciative and less spoilt than the better off to so sorry foreigner buddy you argument holds no calling if I posted the same thing as you you would think I was trolling like someone said its a good job people like you are not in charge

Your argument holds no weight. If someone busts their ass to be a waitress to give their kids a life, then she can afford it. She is working hard to take responsibility. I can also understand that sometimes a pregnancy is an accident and a woman doesn't want to have an abortion. But if that "accident" keeps happening over and over and she keeps turning to welfare to manage it, then we have a problem on our hands. People who do that need to be sanctioned.

And before people accuse me of being anti-poor... although the rich can afford their kids, they commit far more damage to the world's economy with their excesses. The rich should also be sanctioned, but in other areas.

My only goal here is protecting the planet. Fuck humanity's butthurt feelings about it. One day most life on this planet could be dead because of us. I don't really care about people whining about their human rights. Overpopulation and stupidity are destroying the Earth, external to our social/moral moors. Nature doesn't care about our feelings, neither do all the extinct animals.
 
The reactions here are exactly why our planet is fucked. Humans feel entitled to do whatever they want, even if the consequence is genocide of thousands of species, and the total trashing of the planet. "But, but, but, human rights!" Whatever. We're fucked. Enjoy your rights while this planet is still habitable.
 
You know what I cant stand anymore: stupid threads

Pete, pages worth of replies would suggest this thread is interesting to many. You're welcome to not post here if you don't like it.
 
If we give Foreigner's plan a whirl, the first thing we should do is prohibit reproductively stupid people (men and women) from owning, using, or possesing either, beer, wine or liquor, or, women's lingerie and high heels. The use of these items are the strongest predictors that a reproductive event is imminent. Hopefully taking away these items from reproductively stupid people will serve as a stern warning and they'll shape up.
 
If we give Foreigner's plan a whirl, the first thing we should do is prohibit reproductively stupid people (men and women) from owning, using, or possesing either, beer, wine or liquor, or, women's lingerie and high heels. The use of these items are the strongest predictors that a reproductive event is imminent. Hopefully taking away these items from reproductively stupid people will serve as a stern warning and they'll shape up.

I don't care if you disagree with me, but it's not nice to ridicule.

I never said people shouldn't have sex. I said their reproduction must be controlled. Big difference.
 
I don't care if you disagree with me, but it's not nice to ridicule.

I never said people shouldn't have sex. I said their reproduction must be controlled. Big difference.
How's about we publish their names too?
 
If we give Foreigner's plan a whirl, the first thing we should do is prohibit reproductively stupid people (men and women) from owning, using, or possesing either, beer, wine or liquor, or, women's lingerie and high heels. The use of these items are the strongest predictors that a reproductive event is imminent. Hopefully taking away these items from reproductively stupid people will serve as a stern warning and they'll shape up.
As long as foreigner starts with himself
 
If you two have nothing to contribute to this topic, then you should stop posting.

Last warning. Infractions will follow.
 
Let me reiterate: I am in favour of controlling humanity's reproduction rate by any means possible in order to save this planet from ecological collapse and the genocide of thousands of species. In the presence of "freedom", people show utter stupidity and lack of responsibility.

My entire OP is actually a lament on the harms humanity is doing to this world, a world I care about, a world that I place as a higher priority than even my own life. I want to see our numbers cut back significantly, and I am not willing to wait for the talking heads to get their ideologies straight. We don't have time. We have 10-20 years max to stop a climate change roller coaster that will kill us and our way of life.
I will be the first to admit I'm a little triggered by the kind of abject misanthropy I see expressed so often on this forum recently, and in light of that, perhaps I've interpreted some things incorrectly, if so I'm open to being corrected. That said, I feel that the language you use betrays your true meaning. After all, this isn't a thread specifically about the importance of population control - it's a thread lamenting how the personal moral failings of a fairly large proportion of the human species are the primary cause of the problems of the world, and how stupid these people are for not knowing better.

So you care about the planet, and the future of the many thousands of species on it. I'd like to think I do too, but someone else might not, and I would not immediately assume that this is just because they are more stupid than I am (although I will admit to some bias in this regard, I'm only human, after all ;)). Even if they do care about these things (which hopefully they do) it's possible that they've reached a different conclusion about what to do about it, and again, their reasons for this may be other than just stupidity.


Foreigner said:
People keep rebutting my argument as though I am saying I am smarter than everyone else, and that most other people are stupid. I never said that, not once.
You may not have said it, but you've certainly implied it. To claim anything else is just intellectually dishonest. Are you really going to say that you don't think most other people are stupid, and that you're smarter than they are just for realising the importance of drastic population control measures?


Foreigner said:
I also don't care how stupid people suffer. It's not my problem.
It most definitely is your problem! If the methods by which the kind of population control you advocate is achieved by methods which inflict too much suffering, then they this is not going to last. It's also a very dangerous road to go down when you start endorsing morally questionable, or indeed, morally abhorrent actions because "the end justifies the means".

If population control is the primary goal, then why do we even need to limit this suffering to stupid people? Why not just make it random? War historically has served as a pretty effective means of controlling the population - perhaps we should not be so afraid of large international conflicts. Disease is another pretty effective method to limit the human population, perhaps we should just quit a couple of areas of research, I mean isn't cancer really just nature's way of keeping the population down? The Holocaust, the Black Death, many reasons to be thankful for those events, and the ideology that gave rise to the former!

I mean really, stupidity itself is a a pretty effective population control in the long run. If we do indeed make the Earth uninhabitable to us in the very near future, and our stupidity prevents us from finding a solution which allow our species to survive, the Earth probably still has a good couple million of years as a life bearing world, even up to a billion if the greenhouse effect is not runaway and unstoppable, before the increasing luminosity of the sun overwhelms any resilience of the biosphere.

Say there are just another 10 million years of evolution of new species on Earth, after humankind's self inflicted extinction. Isn't this preferable to a couple of million years of the kind of artificial stasis that would result if humankind persist?

I expect you may point to my "reading comprehension skills" again, and say that you're not advocating for the extinction of humanity, just that there are less of them. I would suggest however that even in the face of apocalyptic climate change it's unlikely every single human will die, but we could conceivably persist while surrendering our current dominant position, and ability to exert such extreme influence on all other forms of life. Would this be a future you would wish for? If not, what is it that you find so special about this particular slice of the history of the Earth, the specific evolutionary snapshot of life that exists today, and this specific instance of the development of human culture - especially when it has given rise to the kind of rampant "stupidity" that you find so difficult to deal with?


One final point - I will admit that something else I find triggering is the casual endorsement of fairly brutal, totalitarian regimes on the basis of a few cherry picked things that you like about them. I have not studied the language and culture of China, so as someone who has, please tell me - do you think that it's just an unfortunate coincidence that this culture with a more "civilized" stance on population control, also has a decidedly uncivilized approach to drug policy?

There are, obviously, countless other examples I could pick of things that to me seem quite uncivilized about the current culture of China, but I mention drug policy as it's hopefully something that is important to all of us, this being a drug forum, after all. Can a society be considered civilized while advocating the death penalty for non-violent drug offenses? Or is this policy just an unfortunate result of other factors, quite unrelated to the overall civilized outlook which enabled such an un-stupid approach to population control?
 
I will be the first to admit I'm a little triggered by the kind of abject misanthropy I see expressed so often on this forum recently, and in light of that, perhaps I've interpreted some things incorrectly, if so I'm open to being corrected. That said, I feel that the language you use betrays your true meaning. After all, this isn't a thread specifically about the importance of population control - it's a thread lamenting how the personal moral failings of a fairly large proportion of the human species are the primary cause of the problems of the world, and how stupid these people are for not knowing better.

You need to go back and read my OP again. Populism and anti-intellectualism are on the rise. People are not only stupid and ignorant, they are behaving entitled to it. My meaning has been clear and straightforward.

Even if they do care about these things (which hopefully they do) it's possible that they've reached a different conclusion about what to do about it, and again, their reasons for this may be other than just stupidity.

Populism is stupidity. It has been the source of most of the major wars and humanitarian crises of the past century.

You may not have said it, but you've certainly implied it. To claim anything else is just intellectually dishonest.

I'm not interested in what you think I implied. You can't speak for my thoughts and feelings. I already clarified my beliefs several times.

Are you really going to say that you don't think most other people are stupid, and that you're smarter than they are just for realising the importance of drastic population control measures?

I won't be drawn into a hypothetical argument about my character. If you'd like to debate the points I've made, then feel free, but your personal gripes are irrelevant.

It most definitely is your problem! If the methods by which the kind of population control you advocate is achieved by methods which inflict too much suffering, then they this is not going to last. It's also a very dangerous road to go down when you start endorsing morally questionable, or indeed, morally abhorrent actions because "the end justifies the means".

If population control is the primary goal, then why do we even need to limit this suffering to stupid people? Why not just make it random? War historically has served as a pretty effective means of controlling the population - perhaps we should not be so afraid of large international conflicts. Disease is another pretty effective method to limit the human population, perhaps we should just quit a couple of areas of research, I mean isn't cancer really just nature's way of keeping the population down? The Holocaust, the Black Death, many reasons to be thankful for those events, and the ideology that gave rise to the former!

I mean really, stupidity itself is a a pretty effective population control in the long run. If we do indeed make the Earth uninhabitable to us in the very near future, and our stupidity prevents us from finding a solution which allow our species to survive, the Earth probably still has a good couple million of years as a life bearing world, even up to a billion if the greenhouse effect is not runaway and unstoppable, before the increasing luminosity of the sun overwhelms any resilience of the biosphere.

Say there are just another 10 million years of evolution of new species on Earth, after humankind's self inflicted extinction. Isn't this preferable to a couple of million years of the kind of artificial stasis that would result if humankind persist?

I expect you may point to my "reading comprehension skills" again, and say that you're not advocating for the extinction of humanity, just that there are less of them. I would suggest however that even in the face of apocalyptic climate change it's unlikely every single human will die, but we could conceivably persist while surrendering our current dominant position, and ability to exert such extreme influence on all other forms of life. Would this be a future you would wish for? If not, what is it that you find so special about this particular slice of the history of the Earth, the specific evolutionary snapshot of life that exists today, and this specific instance of the development of human culture - especially when it has given rise to the kind of rampant "stupidity" that you find so difficult to deal with?


One final point - I will admit that something else I find triggering is the casual endorsement of fairly brutal, totalitarian regimes on the basis of a few cherry picked things that you like about them. I have not studied the language and culture of China, so as someone who has, please tell me - do you think that it's just an unfortunate coincidence that this culture with a more "civilized" stance on population control, also has a decidedly uncivilized approach to drug policy?

There are, obviously, countless other examples I could pick of things that to me seem quite uncivilized about the current culture of China, but I mention drug policy as it's hopefully something that is important to all of us, this being a drug forum, after all. Can a society be considered civilized while advocating the death penalty for non-violent drug offenses? Or is this policy just an unfortunate result of other factors, quite unrelated to the overall civilized outlook which enabled such an un-stupid approach to population control?

You're right, I'm going to point to your reading comprehension problems. I have pointed out very real political problems that prevent proper birth control policy that still protects people's freedom to choose. Those political problems will not be solved in the near future.

About China... I don't have a hard on for their country, but they take responsibility for every immediate crisis with practical solutions. Sometimes human rights suffer, but they get the job done. I hate the word "civilized"... it's used by western observers so they can feel justified in their smug superiority about the country they live in. The west is currently in moral, social and economic decay. The one child policy was wildly successful. They prevented a population crisis that would have left them languishing for another 100 years as they tried in vain to industrialize. China is a complicated country. People who paint them with a broad stroke of good or bad demonstrate their own ignorance of the complexity.

I'm not interested in debating China's drug policy, or anything else to do with China, actually. I only brought them up because they are the only country in the world to attempt population control, and it was a success. It was so successful, in fact, that they had to relax the policy in order to meet population replacement by 2050.

Your description of possible futures with climate change is actually optimistic. An apocalypse in which a reasonable portion of humanity survives is actually very optimistic. By all projections, if the earth continues to warm, be polluted and deforested at the rate it's happening, not even the sea dwelling micro-flora that produce our planet's oxygen will be able to survive. I think people are in full on denial about just what kind of crisis we're facing. Instead, the stupid and ignorant continue to stuff their fat fucking faces with consumer capitalism, thinking that they and the planet will just live forever.

We don't need more humans behaving this way. We need less. Any method that culls our numbers, whether it's an epidemic, a massive war, enforced birth control... whatever it is, I am all for it. EVEN if it ends up killing me. I will gladly give my life to save the planet. People's outrage in this thread is all about human entitlement. That entitlement, that sense of birth right and individualism, is exactly what's trashing the planet. Everyone feels deserving to live life at a high standard of living while they kill the planet.

People gasp at birth control policy, but they don't bat an eyelash as thousands of species die forever every year.

You can mischaracterize me all you want but it doesn't matter. The facts don't care about your feelings. I care more about this planet than your feelings. Animals and other life deserve to live and not be extinguished just for our creature comforts.
 
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For the record, I only used the term "civilized" because you yourself said
China is a pretty civilized society
...which I thought needed to be challenged.

In any case, I did go back and read your OP as suggested. I actually do identify with the sentiment, and I did respond earlier in this thread a few times expressing that. My issue is with the misanthropic rabbit hole that you've allowed this frustration to lead you down, and your continued, unhelpful characterization of viewpoints other than your own as simply "stupid".


Foreigner said:
Populism is stupidity. It has been the source of most of the major wars and humanitarian crises of the past century.
These 2 sentences are either non-sequiturs relative to each other, or point to a contradiction in your views. If war is an effective method of population control, and populism has been the cause of most major wars, then surely it cannot be the case that populism is stupid for the reason that it has been the source of most major wars? The same could be said for humanitarian crises - although I will concede that not all humanitarian crises are as effective population control measures.


Foreigner said:
I won't be drawn into a hypothetical argument about my character. If you'd like to debate the points I've made, then feel free, but your personal gripes are irrelevant.
I am attempting to debate the points you've made - specifically, that perhaps it is it's own stupidity to assert that people who have reached different conclusions than you have, do not think this way just because they are stupid. However, you don't seem particularly interested in entertaining any lines of reason that don't allow you to just continue to state your own interpretation of reality as objective fact. I will say again that I don't necessarily disagree with you entirely - it is an objective fact that the growing population of humanity has significantly increased the likelihood of a catastrophic climate shift in the near future, yes. It's NOT an objective fact that those who don't think we should implement some of the harsh population control measures you advocate think this way simply because they are stupid.


Foreigner said:
China is a complicated country. People who paint them with a broad stroke of good or bad demonstrate their own ignorance of the complexity.
Would it be fair to say that humans are a complicated species, and that what to do about our growing population is a complicated issue?

I would argue that people who paint the issue with such a broad brush as more humans = BAD, less humans = GOOD are demonstrating their own stupidity, or perhaps just willful ignorance, of a complicated problem.

One might argue that the preservation of humanity itself, or at least a future with a net result of minimal human suffering, is an issue with as much moral weight as the preservation of the ecological diversity of the Earth in this chapter of it's history, and that proposed methods of population control so far do not adequately address the importance of this issue, and will not lead to a desirable outcome in the long term.

I will say again - I AGREE that some form of population control is needed. I strongly disagree with your assessment that it is just not important how we go about this, I think it is very important, and personally I think it is stupid to dismiss this. However I don't think constantly repeating my views about the relative stupidity of opinions that I disagree with is particularly helpful or relevant, as it only serves to suppress any productive discussion and hope of convincing anyone who does not immediately agree with me.
 
I will say again that I don't necessarily disagree with you entirely - it is an objective fact that the growing population of humanity has significantly increased the likelihood of a catastrophic climate shift in the near future, yes. It's NOT an objective fact that those who don't think we should implement some of the harsh population control measures you advocate think this way simply because they are stupid.

I just need to bring this back home again. I started this thread bringing up a personal, perhaps existential problem. Somehow it turned into a huge policy discussion about global politics. Really, this has to do with my challenges about coping with the utter stupidity and ignorance I see being peddled in politics, through institutions, through selfish individualism, and through things like social media. It seems like people have lost their minds, at a time when we most need people to be level headed and look at the catastrophic problems facing this planet. The cognitive dissonance and disconnect is massive. For someone like me, it poses an existential problem.

Where this perhaps leads into a debate about population control is that these aberrant attitudes and behaviours get magnified onto a massive scale when large populations buy into ideologies that perpetuate all the problems, cyclically. Hence populism. Humanity is stuck in a cycle and it's so transparent to me. Why can't others see it? Or at least, why do so few people demonstrate that they are really seeing it?

Really what this is about is that I feel lonely in the world because the average person is hypnotized by materialism, politics, or some other kind of koolaid. It seems like very few are awake to the samsara we live in. Most want to deepen the delusion rather than try to break free of it, and I find this frustrating.

My original question was if I should just try to practice being content with my own awakeness even as the house burns, or actually try getting other people to wake up. To use an analogy... should I be a Mayahana Buddhist or a Theraveda Buddhist? For me, it's hard to be awake and not care about what's happening around me... but I am beginning to feel it's utterly pointless to try and stop people from succumbing to mass hypnosis.

Like... the planet is collapsing and people are still doing the same old shit. THIS is the stupidity I'm really talking about. It is a serpent with one body but many heads. It's also not egotistical to say I'm awake. I know I am.... it's just factual. It doesn't make me better than anyone else. It just means I'm seeing everything for what it is. What's it going to take for the necessary number of people to reach this point so that we can prevent hell on earth? I am losing hope that we can really pull through this. It angers and frustrates me... mostly because it's totally unnecessary.

I mean, we are just monkeys or something?
 
My original question was if I should just try to practice being content with my own awakeness even as the house burns, or actually try getting other people to wake up. To use an analogy... should I be a Mayahana Buddhist or a Theraveda Buddhist? For me, it's hard to be awake and not care about what's happening around me... but I am beginning to feel it's utterly pointless to try and stop people from succumbing to mass hypnosis.
I won't pretend to know enough about Buddhism to know the finer points and differences between those 2 interpretations, although I will have a read about them later. I am happy to step away from the specific discussion about global politics however, and will re-iterate my earlier expressed viewpoint regarding your original question.

In my opinion, you can, and should, do both. Practice being content with your own awakeness, and of course, care about what's happening around you, but I would argue that if you are indeed an "awake person", you have a moral responsibility to help those around you to "wake up" also, no matter how futile it might seem. But you're only going to be able to do this if you can find a way to let go of the frustration you feel, and accept that you won't be able to help everyone, your efforts might indeed be futile - ultimately the fate of life on Earth is out of your control.

Except as a motivator for change, frustration is an emotion with little value. And, again, no-one really chooses to be "stupid" even if it might seem that way at times - stupidity is not a personal moral failing, and therefore allowing yourself to feel too much negativity and resentment towards those of us who seem to be contributing to the collapse is poisonous to your own ability to act as a positive force in the world.

We are all, ultimately, passengers in life, and those who have the good fortune to be "awake", as you describe it, have a moral responsibility to shoulder more of the burden of enacting positive change in the world, but this is not possible as long as you allow your outlook to be poisoned by feelings of frustration and resentment towards those with less ability to change things, whether this is because they are stupid or for any other reason.

If you decide to sit back and let the world burn, then no matter how awake you might consider yourself to be, you are really no different to the stupid people you resent. And if you decide to try to change things, but still allow yourself to be corrupted by these feelings of negativity and resentment, by endorsing things that would inflict suffering in pursuit of your own understanding of "the greater good", then while you might think you are helping, you are still part of a different problem. You still have a responsibility to show love and compassion towards those who are happy to sit back and let the world burn.
 
^^
In case you've not seen it, let me share with all of you this piece by Nick Sand, which I find so incredibly comforting. I would wish that for you, too.


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Journey into the realm of ibogaine

by Nick Sand

Back in 1964, when psychedelic exploration was still legal, I obtained three doses of ibogaine. I had previously been doing extensive exploration with LSD, peyote, DMT, and mescaline, both in my laboratory as chief alchemist for the League of Spiritual Discovery, and internally on my own quest for illumination. Always on the lookout for new and effective ways to access God-consciousness, I was eager to try ibogaine. I'd heard fascinating stories about ibogaine from older friends who had turned me on to my first psychedelic experience with mescaline. One told of a parade of cosmic proportions. Another described a pageant of incredible detail and completely realistic visions, like watching a movie. These were some of the tantalizing descriptions presented to me about ibogaine.

LSD tends to magnify, intensify and empower the vision of a timeless moment. DMT, on the other end of the tryptamine spectrum, tends to transport one into a totally “other” realm, replete with elaborate and intensely colorful designs, strange guardian creatures, and visitations from divine messengers. Having retrieved rich treasures of spiritual secrets from the DMT realms, I am intrigued by the descriptions of ibogaine.

Looking through my anthropology books, I found passages describing members of the Bwiti cult in central Africa using Tabernanthe iboga, a traditional plant source for ibogaine, in ceremonies to visit their ancestors and receive instructions. In lower doses, ibogaine is said to give hunters the ability to stay motionless for many hours while they became one with the jungle.

My two intrepid cosmic companions, Alan and Raymond, and myself are all enthusiastic about trying it. We decide to take it at their flat in Brooklyn Heights—a brownstone building that had fallen into disrepair—that lay on the boundary between the black and Puerto Rican neighborhoods. They had fixed the fireplace and transformed the flat into a psychedelic temple. Now assembled, we discuss the preparations. We fast for two days and spend the day before quietly reading, meditating, and doing yoga to ensure the best possible experience. We disconnect the phone and put a “do not disturb, meditation in progress” sign up on the door.

We each take about 800 mg of ibogaine hydrochloride, a chalky white powder with a bitter, earthy taste. We sit on mattresses arranged on a carpet around the fire. We wait one, two, three hours, and nothing happens. The fire burns low, but no one moves to build it up. The shadows grew long and night fell. Simultaneously, we all lay down, as the lethargy that had subtly been coming on grows more intense. I have no desire to move. Everything is silent and still. I feel that I am in a soft, humming, electric cocoon that gives me little “funny bone” shocks if I touch it.

I am in the middle, centered between euphoria and depression. I feel balanced. My sense perceptions are heightened. The little glow from the fire brightens the whole room. My eyes focus in a different way—clear, but taking everything in. And then the room starts to spin. It is similar to an alcohol drunkenness, but with no feeling of vertigo or nausea at all. I am glad that I fasted! The whirling increases and I feel like I am in the center of a pinwheel. Faster and faster it spins, and then I am rising like a projectile through the room—with great chunks of wall and brick peeling back and falling away in slow motion. I shoot up into the stars: a pair of disembodied eyes wandering, searching. I am an essence - a solo awareness flying through the universe, exploring, seeking.

After an immense journey, I come to a planet. It is a sandy yellow color. I am able to project my vision down to it, and I look around the surface of the planet. It is an inhospitable looking place; with winds strong enough to blow rocks and sand past me. It looks lethally hot and dry. I move on. Next, I come to a dark green planet. No clouds. No seas. No mountains. It looks as though it is covered with a poisonous mold. I do not want to go any closer. I continue on through the galaxies until I arrive above a whirling vortex that is coalescing into a solar system. I watched a sun and its planets form, and come closer to observe. I am drawn to one of the middle planets. The fiery liquid surface is cooling and turning from yellow and red to black solids, broken by red rivers of lava emitting flames. Slowly, the planet cools until fumes and vapors veil the entire surface. As I circle the planet, I sense a long epoch of torrential rains, as water vapor forms and condenses in the upper atmosphere and falls toward the burning surface, only to evaporate again long before reaching the ground. Eventually, the planet cools and the rains arrive on the lands below. After what seems like a long time, the clouds begin to clear. I scan the planet now, seeing and being everything that I come across. I watch mountain chains rise and volcanoes burst, and everything subside again and again into flat plains and meandering rivers. Time and time again, mountains rise and dissolve and continents appear and disappear. Then this slows down, and I watch the seas and plains. All is sterile—a tan land with smoking volcanoes and no life, yet fecund and ready.

As I watch, I see life appear. I observe spots of green forming along the seashores. They shoot along the banks, forming a green margin, and then run up the rivers and tributaries like the veins in a leaf. The barren spaces between these branches are filled with proliferating plant life. The oceans seem to be teeming with life, and then the first bug-like creatures start to crawl out on land. They spread all over, rapidly changing into a variety of insects and strange lobster-like creatures. Fern-like plants appear. Vast varieties of life appear and then disappear. Elaborate life experiments succeed one another with awesome complexity.

Then suddenly I am in a steaming swamp-like environment that looked familiar. With awe and amazement, I realize that I am watching the age of the dinosaur, and it slowly dawns on me that I am witness to the history of life evolving on the planet Earth! With a speed that defies accurate recall, life forms change again and again, spreading and multiplying in a dizzying array of shapes and colors. Humanoid creatures appear and soon after are hunting, then farming and building. Civilizations bloom, spread, and subside, like bubbles on a fermenting pond. Ages of war and conquest express the speed of civilization and technology. I witness slaughter and mayhem, torture and mutilation, rape and castration. Man’s inhumanity to man is illustrated in myriad forms. I am there, “in” it, feeling it as both the doer and the done to. For what seems an interminably long time, civilizations rise and fall in inter-folding waves of creation, and brilliant innovations in arts and sciences, only to fall in smoking ruins followed by ages of darkness.

Then, points of light appear in the dark, interconnecting again in new waves of discovery and renaissance. Undulating waves of humanity are crashing and washing over the planet in a succession of expansion and contraction. As I live through this flux and change, there arises in me an awareness of the noble and brave potential of humanity and its duty as the intelligent species to protect the forests and life forms and water of the planet. I experience a feeling of the sacred unity with all life. I see the whole planet’s surface as one organism, inhabited by one spirit, growing its forests to protect its surface and provide even moisture and temperature for all its creatures. I see one species, humanity, as the natural intelligent guardian of all life. I realize that it is humanity’s intelligence that must understand, preserve, and care for the earth’s surface—and life that is its nutrient substrate, its womb, and its mother. I feel how all life was precious, interconnecting, and supportive of all other life. I dedicate my spirit not to destroy any part of this puzzle of divine mystery that is the milk of creation. Throughout, there is this balance, and an acknowledgment of the intertwining of opposites, the negative and positive, the base and noble. This feeling flows through me as a dual aspect of one energy - total, deep... sweeping me away on this immense journey of life’s history. It was like falling in love, so entrancing was this vision.

Hours had elapsed. The fire was long gone, yet this movie continued with fantastic detail, one pageant coming on the heels of another. An example of the incredible detail that ibogaine shows: through my constantly available “zoom lens,” I am observing a French king and his retinue during a formal promenade in the gardens of Versailles. Of this large group of people in courtly splendor, one woman’s dress catches my eye. I can see from a great distance the hem of her dress, an intricate and tiny embroidery of inter-linked fleur-de-lis. Simultaneously, I see both immense and complicated scenes and vistas as well as small details with great precision. On and on it goes, and I never move. This peak experience goes on for at least 14 hours. I am watching scenes from the industrial revolution when the sun shows through the window. The movie continues in stronger and weaker waves, dimming in the light and finally fading out, although I know it is still going on at some internal level. Although I can move around now, I am still high, and it is still going on 24 hours later. This is a long trip!

By afternoon, we are all getting pretty hungry. I decide to brave the world and pick up some food at the corner store. I exit the house, which was located on the black side of the street, and head for a Puerto Rican store on the opposite corner. This is New York, a place where people don’t usually greet strangers on the street. I walk past this old man who glances up and says, “Hello.” Down at the corner I meet a black woman; we also greet each other and smile. I cross the street and enter the store. Pretty soon I am chatting and joking with the owners, and they are putting extra fruit in my bag as gifts. As I exit the store and cross the street, on my return I have to pass through a group of young black gang members who had just arrived. To my surprise they let me pass with no incident. What was going on? As I walk back it hits me. I know where we all came from. We all came from the same source—the same mother. There is no difference between us. I see it, I feel it... I “am” it, and that is recognizable instantly by others. I am transformed into a being at one with all other life. Racism and prejudice are incomprehensible to me. I know where we all come from, from the same universe: we are all one.

What I learned from this trip is that there is a new paradigm arising for humankind. Transcending mind, one finds the spirit or soul. Rejecting the bias of politics and the destructiveness of fear, one finds that life and unity and harmony are served by love. Humanity’s role as guardian of the planet becomes all too urgent as we go beyond the carrying capacity of the planet’s surface. This is the dream we must realize: to bring back the health of life and nature on this planet. Protect the womb that has borne us and still serves us. Bring back the forests, let the waters run clean, and live in love and harmony with each other. It is time to understand the roots of fear and deal with them. Let us join in a dance to celebrate life and love and rediscover the beauty of inner sacredness.

What is this stuff called ibogaine that tastes like earth and lets you see your ancestors? Is it a DNA-designed communication link to our origins? How far back are these origins? Are we visitors from space, planted here on the wings of the God-DNA? Is this cosmic panorama it reveals created to give humanity a real look at our history to understand who we are and how we are connected to the universe? One thing is certain: ibogaine is one of the true, deep psychedelics. It is flesh of the Gods. Use it with preparation, respect, and care, and you may grant yourself a taste of truth, a vision into the nature of reality and an inspiration to enter into the path of unity and knowing.

One of richest uses of psychedelics is giving them enough time and attention to allow the sacred messages to filter through and become meaningful. A day before for preparation and one afterwards for contemplation is ideal. The peyote people would spend the morning after, for a traditional breakfast and sharing the visions they had had and finding meanings in these messages from beyond. In like manner, we can also find new meanings for these visions as the years deepen our perspectives.

So as time passed, I wondered who it could have been that was seeing the evolution of life on our planet. Was this some mystery that would just have to be accepted as is? Many years later I came across two ideas that gave new meaning and depth to these ibogaine visions. The first idea came when I read about an explorer in the Amazon questioning the chief of the Mayoruna about the purpose of all the intense psychedelic journeys that the entire tribe participated in. He said that the purpose was to go back to the beginning. The second idea came after reading Jeremy Narby’s book The Cosmic Serpent. I realized that it was quite possible that the DNA molecule has an extraterrestrial origin. In fact, due to the complexity of this life-evolving molecule and the relatively short window it has had to evolve on this earth, DNA’s evolution here on planet earth may just be another geocentric earthling myth.

Putting these two ideas together started a process that gave a whole new meaning to my ibogaine vision. I was going back to the beginning. Going back to the beginning of life on this planet. Certainly, it was not my persona that was going back. Then what or who was going back? What was the common denominator of all living things? Who was the “I” that was observing and so intensely participating in all these lives and journeys? Suddenly I realized that the common denominator and the origin of life was the DNA that we all carry, whether it be the simplest bacteria or modern man. Now my vision took on a whole new meaning. Our consciousness predates this solar system. I'd gone back to the beginning, when I (and all of us) were space-borne DNA looking for a new home to create life. I'd been seeking through one solar system after another, until I came to the nascent solar system we call our home. Now I rush down to the surface after waiting eons for conditions to be right for the formation of life. Then down I go, creating new life, evolving from the beginning... into the vast mystery.

---

You are the "I" that Nick is referring to. There is nothing to worry about, you'll be ok. The planet will renew itself. Visualize and hold in your heart the greater purpose of creation.

pb
 
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The reactions here are exactly why our planet is fucked. Humans feel entitled to do whatever they want, even if the consequence is genocide of thousands of species, and the total trashing of the planet. "But, but, but, human rights!" Whatever. We're fucked. Enjoy your rights while this planet is still habitable.

I back this point 100%

Just saying like folks....Linkola is right about everything.


Turn subtitles on if they aren't set correct for you btw as he speaks Finnish.
 
If you two have nothing to contribute to this topic, then you should stop posting.

Last warning. Infractions will follow.
There is nothing the least constructive about arbitrarily taking away people's civil rights and torturing them, which is exactly what you are suggesting.

I don't intend to post further on the subject.
 
this will be less specific and more an expansion upon a gist of things

People that are "enlightened" or "smart" will always be divorced from people who are "stupid" or reluctant to absorb new information. As I see it, the world will get more functional and cohesive when the storm of warring ideologies passes, and any conversation in its wake is reflective. The world may end several times over before that point, and after. Somehow I doubt the end of humanity will be because of partisan politics.

Briefly touching on population- One side of the table says disaster will strike faster than the added few billion minds can have time to avoid it. The other side posits that, of the added few billion people, the amount that are super genius and/or innovative will help us dissolve disaster faster than disaster can dissolve us.

:?:sus: the world is being rinsed in a scientific baptism, and to some degree, a philosophical one. I'm optimistic.
And in terms of handling stupid people, you can't. Just raise good kids.
 
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