Gnostic Christianity MEGATHREAD

[Gnostic Bishop]

You're one to talk. Why must you be so aggressive and confrontational? It makes me think you just like riling people up by any means necessary. You called someone a child in a derogatory way just a short time ago in a different thread, in response to them disagreeing with you in a quite friendly way. Hypocrisy is an unattractive quality, and it doesn't tend to engender faith in your message or intentions.

Simple. I try to speak for the oppressed victims of religions.

Both Christianity and Islam have basically developed intointolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grownthemselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoralways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works anddeeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as hispeople, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudlycontinuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

If you are not aggressive and confrontational with those who are still contributing to the harm religions do, you might wonder why.

You criticize me for what I post, yet here you are using a post only to criticize instead of speaking to the issues of the O.P.

What would you have done in the days of the Inquisitions that were used to kill off Gnostic Christians and others who did not agree with the orthodox church? Tell those who did fight the Inquisitors to not criticize them too much?

Regards
DL

 

[Xorkoth]

Ah, the travails of posting on a web forum. The truth is, I just find your condescending tone towards people and aggressive content to be offputting. I respect that you're trying to get a message across, and I even agree with it more or less in many cases. But surely you've heard the saying that you catch more flies with honey? When you conduct yourself in aggressive and insulting ways, people stop listening, and you're just swinging the pendulum because it creates more negativity in the opposite direction which only further empowers the opposition to feel more strongly their way. To me the goal is to stop it swinging at all. I was criticizing you, yes, because when you lead with personal attacks it detracts from your argument. Calling someone a child is unmistakably condescending and no one respects the message when it is being condescended to them. Criticism is different from personal attacks. Nowhere have I denigraded you. Or if I have in some other thread, I apologize and was probably just aggravated, we all make mistakes.

If I'm being honest I usually have a hard time responding to your OPs because they read like sensationalist news headlines, the kind that lead to people in the comments section telling each other how wrong the other one is. It doesn't provoke an atmosphere of even discourse, but instead one in which people lash out back and forth because they feel offended. I'm not trying to offend you with this post, it's just my feeling about it over time. If you want better discussion in your threads, maybe adjust your tact a bit.

If this were the inquisition times and people were trying to kill you, I would feel differently, but no one is trying to kill you (or so I assume anyway). Maybe it would help to frame your arguments in a way that highlights what gnostic christianity could do in a positive sense, instead of focusing on inflaming people who don't agree with you. Be an ambassador. Otherwise you're part of everyone else who is trying to ram their views down the throats of nonbelievers.

 

[DoctorMolecule]

^ the passages from mark and Luke are completely out of context, and ignore what the Jewish leaders were doing in using their oral Torah above the written Torah: extra rules for cleanliness and rituals, making donations to the temple above taking care of your parents etc. Christ said he is the fulfillment of the written law. Logos made flesh. Christ came to midrash the Torah. Even while being crucified he is singing psalms. Is Jesus our master or our servant. At first the apostles see him as master, then Jesus washes their feet, then Jesus calls them his friends. If your master is your friend he will give his life for you

 

[AddictRecon]

As to spinning the opposite of what the bible says, I sometimes have to to bring it's moral back to the original that Christianity reversed in the first place.

Anyone can take the bible out of context to make it say what they want, which I believe is what you are doing on this forum, primarily.

I specifically set my mind to studying the scriptures, and the things you say make zero sense. Its like you read a few passages of the bible out of context and then defined the rest of the bible based on those bad contextual extrapolations.

Its not only dishonest, but reprehensible in terms of an honest critique. From what ive read of your posts, it shows how little of the bible youve actually read or seem to understand, and I honestly dont think youve read that much of it.

 

[AddictRecon]

Can you not find your own Jesus mind within yourself?

I dont want to invent my 'own Jesus', I have the one and only Jesus, upon confession of my sins.

It is written.

Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
2Co 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.
Gal 1:15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 4:19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!
Eph 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Col 1:27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Jesus Christ is YHWH incarnate

I so fundamentally disagree with this statement that I'm confused as to how you could make it. Is this what Christians really believe? I've never read the bible but I've read lots of quotes from it and listened to lots of Christians talk very attentively. I don't think GB is a good example of the Gnostic Christian perspective having read many of his posts and scratched my head and I very much enjoy the Gnostic perspective from what little I've read about it. No offense intended GB. If you've ever experienced a fraction of the love that is available to us in every living breathing moment I think you'd be skeptical about the OT's attribution of YHWH as God. I can dig up some quotes that make this explicit if you like.

Does Jesus ever explicitly state YHWH is God in the NT? If not perhaps there is a bit of extrapolation going on.

 

[swilow]

Isn't Yahweh the biblical god though?

 

[Shrooms00087]

Can you prove that you are not God incarnated through the various resources of physics that give light to your reflection?

 

[AddictRecon]

Is this what Christians really believe?

Fundamentally, yes.

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by Himself alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”


Hebrews 2:17-18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”
Hebrews 4:15-16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”


John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

[Jabberwocky]

A lot of really great quotes, some of which even I have seen before. I draw inspiration from them. Christ the consciousness and Jesus the man are both important to me and nobody likes to feel like their beliefs are blasphemous. Only Matthew 1:23 directly addresses my question though. All others give support to that assertion in some form. Is Immanuel = Yahweh? Is that what the O.T says? Thanks for taking the time to address my questions.

 

[AddictRecon]

A lot of really great quotes, some of which even I have seen before. I draw inspiration from them. Christ the consciousness and Jesus the man are both important to me and nobody likes to feel like their beliefs are blasphemous. Only Matthew 1:23 directly addresses my question though. All others give support to that assertion in some form. Is Immanuel = Yahweh? Is that what the O.T says? Thanks for taking the time to address my questions.

In Christian doctrine, God (YHVH) is a spirit, formless, omnipresent, but expresses Himself when interfacing with His creation, that Image is Jesus, Christ. Immanuel means "God with us", being that Christ is Gods incarnate Image, or interface that for a time, dwelt among men. Consider this from Hebrews, Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

For example, Christ is the one sitting on the throne in Ezekiels vision, Same with the throne vision in Revelation.
Christ is the Word, He is the narrator when you see God speaking in the OT. Thats why alot of what Christ says in the NT is actually Him quoting Himself from the old Testament, because He is the author of the OT.
He is the "Angel of the Lord", the preincarnate Christ in the OT, or the image of God. Consider Colosians. Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation.

Jesus, or God, predates all known creation, because there was nothing that was created that wasnt created by Him, (Joh 1)

The image of God, which was incarnated in the flesh, is Jesus Christ, but there is so much more to what and who Jesus Christ is and represents, being God, His ontology is ultimately unknowable, because it would require Godhood to comprehend it, which none of us are, there is only one creator, and we are the created.

What confuses people is that when Gods image was incarnated in the flesh, to make atonement for sin, when He himself had no sin, people saw a man, a human, and assume that Christ is ontologically like us, not realizing that Christ is greater than anyone could ever imagine.

You and many others may or may not disagree, which is fine, but this what we believe, and that belief is what initiates the communication between God and those who rely on Him. The problem with belief is that is must be genuine, most people I encounter have an incorrect understanding of who Christ is, and therefore do not have the correct character of Christ, which never initiates Christ speaking to them directly. Christ is a separate, sentient agent who communicates with His followers, He isnt some concept, or level of consciousness one can attain to, thats just not possible. Newage and Gnosticism like to borrow from Christianity, but they are selling a false christ from what I have seen.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Christ is a separate, sentient agent who communicates with His followers, He isnt some concept, or level of consciousness one can attain to, thats just not possible. Newage and Gnosticism like to borrow from Christianity, but they are selling a false christ from what I have seen.

I still think this is debatable having read your reply which is soundly based in scripture. You presuppose continuity between O.T and N.T which again is an assumption that must be carefully evaluated. Unless of course the N.T says explicitly "I am Jesus Christ, God of the O.T, Yahweh incarnate" or something like that in which case I'll back down. I don't know enough to say.

If we assume YHWH is a demiurge god, which Gnostics believed before Jesus Christ was born ( see Nag Hammadi scrolls), then Jesus comes and saves us from that belief and reveals a much kinder, compassionate God that leads us towards salvation. Your narrative is mostly accurate except is doesn't confuse Gods. That's a narrative I can embrace. I can find support for this in many different text that are old. Maybe not O.T old but old nonetheless. We also must question how the Bible was assembled as a collection of written works to the exclusion of others.

New age is also a term that must be wielded carefully. The new age deception is real. As a blanket term to dismiss anything non biblical it is like trump calling facts fake news. It doesn't evaluate the various narratives which are numerous on a case-by-case basis.

 

[AddictRecon]

I still think this is debatable having read your reply which is soundly based in scripture. You presuppose continuity between O.T and N.T which again is an assumption that must be carefully evaluated. Unless of course the N.T says explicitly "I am Jesus Christ, God of the O.T, Yahweh incarnate" or something like that in which case I'll back down. I don't know enough to say.

I think the evidence for the continuity between the OT and NT, the deity of Christ, and the case for Christ as YHVH incarnate is incomprehensibly overwhelming. I could write books on the subject using only the Bible as a reference. (Man already have)

There can be no mistake, from an internal critique of the canonical books of the OT and NT, Jesus Christ is God the Father, YHVH incarnate, and one really only needs one verse to prove this (Isa 9:6) but I could cite scriptural evidences ad nauseam. Jesus Christ is also the fulfillment of OT prophecy concerning His declination into the flesh, this again cannot be argued, it is taught resolutely, there is no challenge on the matter, and the only time Christians are challenged on this is by the layperson who lacks fundamental, and principled biblical understanding, which comes from study.

Gnostics overwhelmingly are ignorant to the fact that the 'nice guy' image of Christ comes intertwined with the very Christ who is also going to judge the earth, remember, Christ is the one who decides who goes to hell (Joh 5:22), He is also the one who will destroy the wicked from the face of the earth, sound familiar? Because its not the first time Hes done it.

 

[Jabberwocky]

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins

Never was much of a fan of Richard Dawkins, but that quote pretty well sums it up. Let's just hope then that Jesus Christ stays nice if he's YHWH as you say. That's why I'm not Christian. Still love Christ though. Spent years reading A Course in Miracles, which I know, I know, is blasphemous, but that Christ is a shining example of love and forgiveness. Thanks again for the quotes and stuff.

Here's a few I like:

″You are the work of God, and His work is wholly lovable and wholly loving.

This is how a man must think of himself in his heart, because this is what he is.” III.3-4

“God is not partial.

All His children have His total Love, and all His gifts are freely given to everyone alike.”

When I [Jesus] said, “I am with you always,” I meant it literally.

I am not absent to anyone in any situation.

Because I am always with you, you are the way and the truth and the light.

You did not make this power, any more than I did.

It was created to be shared and therefore cannot be meaningfully perceived as

belonging to anyone at the expense of another.

Such a perception makes it meaningless by eliminating or overlooking its real and only meaning.

 

[swilow]

I would have thought Christians would seek to distance themselves from that OT malevolent bully. The OT deity is indefensible imo, any worship of such is the worship of all those things Dawkins (also not a huge fan) details. I think its right to try an counteract and vehemently criticize any who support this monster.

Jesus, otoh, seems to value gentleness and love, and while I don't believe he was divine, I can get behind those teachings. The world has always needed those qualities. Now, perhaps, more than ever.

 

[AddictRecon]

I would have thought Christians would seek to distance themselves from that OT malevolent bully. The OT deity is indefensible imo, any worship of such is the worship of all those things Dawkins (also not a huge fan) details. I think its right to try an counteract and vehemently criticize any who support this monster.

Jesus, otoh, seems to value gentleness and love, and while I don't believe he was divine, I can get behind those teachings. The world has always needed those qualities. Now, perhaps, more than ever.

So essentially, you think Jesus, who claims the authority of and submission to the God of the OT, should be "vehemently criticized for supporting this monster".

But in the same breath you say Jesus is a great guy.

Care to explain?

 

[AddictRecon]

Never was much of a fan of Richard Dawkins, but that quote pretty well sums it up. Let's just hope then that Jesus Christ stays nice if he's YHWH as you say. That's why I'm not Christian. Still love Christ though. Spent years reading A Course in Miracles, which I know, I know, is blasphemous, but that Christ is a shining example of love and forgiveness. Thanks again for the quotes and stuff.

Here's a few I like:

I have no clue what those quotes are from, but Jesus never said any of that..

 

[Jabberwocky]

Jesus Christ is alive and well. My sister prayed to Jesus to take away her cigarette addiction and next day it was gone like it never happened. My sister was pretty hopelessly hooked. She tried so many times to quit and failed but after that prayer she has been 3+ years tobacco free now. I heard you had a similar experience. To me that's awesome. To me that constitutes proof within ones personal experience.

When I read A Course in Miracles which was written by Jesus and is the source of those quotes I feel the same beauty and wonder I feel when reading some of the most profound quotes in the N.T or The Aquarian Gospel. How do I know I'm not being deceived? I can feel it. I can experience it. Christ is a consciousness you can experience and work with. It has a resonance like all things. When I read quotes from the O.T about YHWH I feel like I'm witnessing the thoughts of a deranged bully and I feel sick to my stomach. So if Jesus Christ is alive and well, why is anything written outside the Bible necessarily a forgery? What constitutes your proof? If Jesus made an apparition before you and told you he wasn't Yahweh, would you tell him that's impossible, 'cause the Bible say's otherwise? So just as a materialist will want proof by way of experiment, a logician through soundness of argument I seek consistency through my own experience of Christ as it manifests in my life experientially. That serves me well. Not all Christians disagree with me on this.

Anyways, I looked up Isa 9:6, and well there is the whole mistranslation to contend with relating to el Gibbor, which if honestly considered, well, it casts a shadow of doubt on your claim. Ask a Jew or a Muslim and they'll give you a different explanation for what that quote means so not sure what to make of that.

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/2815/to-whom-does-el-gibbor-refer-in-isaiah-9

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom

http://www.muslimdebate.org/polemics/christianity/128-does-isaiah-9-6-call-the-messiah-god

 

[RDP89]

Jesus Christ is alive and well. My sister prayed to Jesus to take away her cigarette addiction and next day it was gone like it never happened. My sister was pretty hopelessly hooked. She tried so many times to quit and failed but after that prayer she has been 3+ years tobacco free now. I heard you had a similar experience. To me that's awesome. To me that constitutes proof within ones personal experience.

I'm sorry, but this is so completely ridiculous. So you think that for some reason jesus would choose to answer your sister's tobacco addiction prayers, while at the same time ignoring the prayers of people praying for say, a sick suffering child to be healed? If that was the case I would have to say "fuck you jesus".

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm not an expert on prayers for sick and suffering children. I mean, I've heard of sick and suffering children going to faith healers and experiencing healings. That's a thing right. Happens everyday. Not sure if you believe it or not. That said, I agree with you that there have been prayers for sick and suffering children that went unanswered. Not sure why but theres a big picture I can't fully see. You'd have to get to the bottom of that yourself with a little research. Personally, I'm happy for my sister and find comparisons of worthiness to receive the benefits of prayer to be a bit reactionary.