Tapering Benzo withdrawal: Losing my mind
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cj, I love how your thread has become the defacto SL benzodiazepine support thread
I'm sorry to hear about your friend manofadude. Loss is never easy, even if it is "just" a friend of a friend. Brings the whole mortality of life home big time. I'm really glad to hear you are relying on your family and friend. I take it they're supportive?
I hear there are some nice retreat type places in Thailand if you have the resourcesthough I was always kind of afraid of traveling out of the country when I was dependent on anything (for obvious reasons).
[mention]F'Loki[/mention] cj gave you really good advice regarding your taper. I'm so sorry to hear you've been having a rough time of it my friend. It sounds like you need to (re)stabilize on the dose you're at before continuing to taper, at least until you get a better hold on your mental health before even thinking about continuing forward with it. Keep your head up and let us know how it goes!
Thailand, India and Nepal are all cheap as hell (the latter 2 cheaper) and offer infinite possibilities with meditation, yoga etc. I wouldn't worry about being addicted to benzos, as long as you have a letter from your doctor customs wont give you any hassle. They are interested in heroin, coke etc. I never even got stopped on my numerous trips around the world...
My doctor agreed I was dropping too quick and is dropping now at 1mg a week with monthly reviews. I am down to 22mg and drop again on Tuesday. I have had really bad bronchitis the past week which ironically has made me sleep well though my sleep pattern is completely screwed.
I've also been diagnosed with high grade depression and GAD that is feeding my life long insomnia and so will start with Mirtazapine (a second-gen TCA) in a couple of days. At this point I don't really care about trying anti-depressants as I am desperate and getting nasty suicidal thoughts, extreme anxiety etc. That is all coming out now I have quit all drugs (including alcohol). I have suspected I have been self-medicating for the best half of my life with drugs and so if I have to go on anti-depressants to feel 'normal' and go about a 'normal' life then so be it. Don't really care at this point.
F'loki
cj
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Anyone know why mirtazepine is a popular drug to give people coming off benzos? The phych doctor gabe me a script for it after I detox ed benzos in the hospital. The few times I took it made me sedated to an extent but not thing magical. I discontinued after a few days
Well its little strange that doctors are willing to give you benzos for years. For me they always give for 1-2 motnshs max. then I ask again around 6-12 months later.
Not in the UK. Max is now 2 weeks (used to be 4, then 3). Same across much of Europe. I think the reason they dish them out for years in North America is the deals with big pharma from having what is essentially a privatised healthcare system and lack of awareness about how addictive they actually are.
Well, I hope they invent some new anti-anxiety drug that will be very effective and not as addictive. Lyrica would be great I heard. nowadays doctors here dont want to give you benzos they give you totally useless SSRI/SNRI and other stuff like that, not only they make you're anxiety 10x worse they will make you extremely depressed too, what a great drugs! It is just that benzos, gabapentins and lyricas are pretty much only working anti-anxiety meds out there. I think only gaba-drugs will work as against anxiety. Downside is that they are addictive, but what can you do as there is no other drug that works and you suffer from anxiety from time to time? I hope in near future there will be as effective but not so addictive drugs. because people still need something for anxiety.
Luckily for me I don't suffer from constant anxiety, its situational and on-off. So usually I might use them for few weeks like when starting new job and after that not using them for 1 year. Thats why I haven't got addicted to them.
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It's because of the investigational uses in drug dependency. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3483434/
Seems to reduce drug cravings especially for stimulants but also some evidence with opiates. So it makes sense if you are already depressed and depression is a root cause of your addiction to use this over SSRI's.
I discussed with my clinic's doctor who knows what he is talking about (knows all about the Ashton Manual etc.) when it comes to benzo withdrawals (he likes to withdraw at 8% every fortnight as opposed to the usual 10%, and said we could even go slower if i wanted but I said no, 1mg a week seems to be okay at this stage.) when it comes to benzo withdrawal.
I mentioned Amiltrypyline, but he said no way would he prescribe it to someone with suicidal thoughts as an overdose can cause heart attacks and that the Ashton Manual is now 15 years old and out of date, and newer TCA's that Aston did not know about back then (2001) like Mirtazepine are actually much better as they are safer in overdose and the 'withdrawals' are no where near as bad (you can usually rapid taper over a month with no real issues) as the old-skool tricyclic anti-depressants like Amiltrypyline.
That said I have acquired Amiltrypyline and 20-30mgs definitely has a sedating effect (I may try an even higher dose though) and I have found it of limited help whilst I wait for my Mirtazepine script. Phenibut is good in combination, but I wouldn't ever take Phenibut more than twice a week max as it's a.) pointless (dependence rises dramatically and takes about a week to 10 days to level out it seems, so it does nothing if taken more often) and b.) You can just swap one addiction with another....However I do not find Phenibut remotely addictive. It's a weird substance.
Another thing I do if I REALLY cannot sleep is use a light opiate twice a week maximum such as codeine or dihydrocodeine. But obviously this can escalate rapidly to oxy and heroin in certain people (like me lol), so my wife takes control of the dosing and monitors me.
Obviously eventually I am going to have to learn how to sleep without pills but that is what the therapy and anti-depressants are for. If they don't work then I have no idea - will just have to live with it I guess, or work out some agreement where I have limited access to benzos (like twice a week) and anti-depressants.
I dunno. My friend has been using SSRI's for 20 years for her anxiety disorder and she says it has changed her life and doe snot ever want to come off of it...I think you need to take them for 4-6 weeks to see any good come out of them and during this 4 weeks I have read anxiety can get worse before it gets better. I have no idea though. Have only had TCA's and Tricyclic anti-depressants that work differently. Mirtazepine sounds promising so I will report back on it.
Ive tried mirtatsapine, and it made my depression 100x worse. total anhedonia, I didnt want to wake up I hope every night that I die while sleep because nothing gave me pleasure anymore. Its even worse then the dysphoria on opioid wds. anti-depressants dont work for me not for anxiety or for depression I will never try them again, I might make suicide next time if I have to take them. I used mirtatsapine for insomnia, I wanst depressed then, and after 3 days of use I wanted to kill myself, total poison. I rather use opioids or benzos or lyrica rest of my life each day than be on any kind of antidepressant. For me they have only negative effects, not a single positive thing.
And as my anxiety is situational and it comes and goes, why should I take medication every day for it?
You shouldn't. And i'm not sure why you were prescribed Mirtazapine for occasional anxiety. Or anything for that matter. You can learn to deal with occasional anxiety with CBT or other therapies. I'm not sure why you'd be given benzos for occasional anxiety either. Seems like you have a terrible doctor or healthcare system.
You shouldn't. And i'm not sure why you were prescribed Mirtazapine for occasional anxiety. Or anything for that matter. You can learn to deal with occasional anxiety with CBT or other therapies. I'm not sure why you'd be given benzos for occasional anxiety either. Seems like you have a terrible doctor or healthcare system.
Because I ask them myself. But lately I dont care for benzos much, I rather would choose lyricas on neurontins, but doctors wont give them, so I'm stick to benzos. And no therapy for me, not if Im sobber, maybe if Im on MDMA it would work, but in here there is no MDMA therapy like in Netherlands. Here everything is shit if you have mental problems.
cj
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You shouldn't. And i'm not sure why you were prescribed Mirtazapine for occasional anxiety. Or anything for that matter. You can learn to deal with occasional anxiety with CBT or other therapies. I'm not sure why you'd be given benzos for occasional anxiety either. Seems like you have a terrible doctor or healthcare system.
In the US benzos are usually only scripted for occasional anxiety. There is growing recognition they lose effectiveness long term. Plus getting off them after prolonged use is absolute hell. That said I have a daily kpin script I couldn't live without. I am terrified every month when I go to the doctor that I am going to lose it.
Yes I don't use them long, almost never longer than 1 month, that doesn't give much WD'S maybe slight insomnia. Benzos are fine in short use, Ive been using them like this past 15 years and have had no problems. I usually use when I start new job or need to meat lots of new people. Benzos sure have dark side, but we must not forget that they are very useful too if used in right way (not daily use for years). Beside lyrica,gabapentin /phenibut/any otehr gaba-drug there aren't any other anti-anxiety meds that work. Maybe in future we should ivest more into MDMA/psychedelic-therapy that might cure anxiety for life in one or two sessions. Using meds to cope with anxiety is not very good idea in long term, be eat benzos or ssris or whatever.
Captain.Heroin
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I've been rx'd benzos for PTSD.
Jabberwocky
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Ditto.
Captain.Heroin
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I think a huge problem is that doctors give out monthly prescriptions, often with refills. I want to see doctors more willing to give out prescriptions, but for just a day or two, or a small quantity for the month. There's nothing wrong with taking a xanax bar or two for a whole month, why don't they write prescriptions like that? It's because the doctors want you dependent, because then they've got a patient for life, coming in every month, and they have to, so they'll never gravitate away from using medication.
^Yes this is fine and the correct way to use benzos. The only way really, IMO.
They do have their value, for sure...But for mild, occasional anxiety? No way. You can do so many other things to treat mild, intermittent anxiety.
I am biased though I guess because of all the pain they have bought me. I still wouldn't prescribe them for more than 2 weeks though. And then I would leave a gap of another 1-4 weeks depending on the half-life of the benzo prescribed. The trouble is they are still dished out like candy by some GPs with no support structure backing you up: Counselling, CBT etc are essential IMO. It took me 30 years to get over my phobia and disdain for counselling and therapists but now I built the courage up and opened my mind to try ANYTHING to get off the benzos I am actually embracing counselling a lot. I think I have lucked out and have gotten therapists I have clicked with - I know plenty of people who have had bad experiences that put them off counselling unfortunately. So I am very grateful. It's also certainly not for everyone.
In the UK they now offer this: You can ask for daily pick ups of your monthly prescription, once every 2 days, once a week etc. I have opted for weekly tbh but now people at outpatient rehab who do it daily. I could actually do it daily as I live only a 5-10 minute walk from my local GP's medical centre, which is great as it gives me that convenience. It's a great option if you struggle with the temptation to take more than your daily dose on times of stress though (I am guilty of this).
But yeah, totally agree with captainheroin too: I would ideally like to move to a regime where I could have access to 1 or 2 doses in a week. At least then I know if I have a stressful event coming up, or a bad spell with my insomnia (this is when things get REALLY bad for me), then I have a safety net with no risk of getting addicted again. I think just having that safety net and the option of having those benzos would help with insomnia. But doctors seem so unreceptive to this kind of responsible and sensible use......Yet they scald you when you get addicted after they have dishes them out to you for months lol Ridiculous.
F'loki
They do have their value, for sure...But for mild, occasional anxiety? No way. You can do so many other things to treat mild, intermittent anxiety.
I am biased though I guess because of all the pain they have bought me. I still wouldn't prescribe them for more than 2 weeks though. And then I would leave a gap of another 1-4 weeks depending on the half-life of the benzo prescribed. The trouble is they are still dished out like candy by some GPs with no support structure backing you up: Counselling, CBT etc are essential IMO. It took me 30 years to get over my phobia and disdain for counselling and therapists but now I built the courage up and opened my mind to try ANYTHING to get off the benzos I am actually embracing counselling a lot. I think I have lucked out and have gotten therapists I have clicked with - I know plenty of people who have had bad experiences that put them off counselling unfortunately. So I am very grateful. It's also certainly not for everyone.
In the UK they now offer this: You can ask for daily pick ups of your monthly prescription, once every 2 days, once a week etc. I have opted for weekly tbh but now people at outpatient rehab who do it daily. I could actually do it daily as I live only a 5-10 minute walk from my local GP's medical centre, which is great as it gives me that convenience. It's a great option if you struggle with the temptation to take more than your daily dose on times of stress though (I am guilty of this).
But yeah, totally agree with captainheroin too: I would ideally like to move to a regime where I could have access to 1 or 2 doses in a week. At least then I know if I have a stressful event coming up, or a bad spell with my insomnia (this is when things get REALLY bad for me), then I have a safety net with no risk of getting addicted again. I think just having that safety net and the option of having those benzos would help with insomnia. But doctors seem so unreceptive to this kind of responsible and sensible use......Yet they scald you when you get addicted after they have dishes them out to you for months lol Ridiculous.
F'loki
I see much bigger problem with giving out SSRI/SNRI and other bullshit medication for every people who come with anxiety or depression, for most people it only make it worse. At least benzos do work, even that they are addictive. But you see this all SSRI/SNRI hoax doesn't help at all, it works only 1% better than placebo. I much rather take medication take will work 99% certainly even if there is addiction risk than taking medication that has 10% possibility to work, but 90% possibility making you're condition worse. The problem is not doctors giving out benzos, but problem is that there isn'y any better option when it comes to medication, maybe pregabalin or gabapentin would be better. But ssris are pure poison, they will change youre brains irreversible to the worse, they most likely dont help you at all and they also give you WD's if you quit, some of them like venlafaxine has been said by some opioid addict that the wd's are almost as bad as opioid wds, but the difference is that venlafaxine for most people is totally useless crap.
I'm tired of blaming benzos while not doing it to anti-depressants too, I'm pretty sure there are more people who have made suicide because of ssris because it has made person feel so awful that only way he can think is suicide. I've been on 10 different anti-depressants and I know what I'm speaking, I was also using opioids daily for 2 years and I must say it was much better than using SSRI's. Longest time using benzos was 6 moths daily (xanax), but at least it worked, yes I got wds but at least it worked while I used it. But with there terrible so called "anti-depressants" there weren't even single good day.
I'm tired of blaming benzos while not doing it to anti-depressants too, I'm pretty sure there are more people who have made suicide because of ssris because it has made person feel so awful that only way he can think is suicide. I've been on 10 different anti-depressants and I know what I'm speaking, I was also using opioids daily for 2 years and I must say it was much better than using SSRI's. Longest time using benzos was 6 moths daily (xanax), but at least it worked, yes I got wds but at least it worked while I used it. But with there terrible so called "anti-depressants" there weren't even single good day.
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