Dopamine, DMSO and San Pedro

[negrogesic]

I'm sure many of you are very aware of the practice of "doping" Trichocereus Pachanoi, which essentially entails injecting the cacti with dopamine (or l-dopa) to increase mescaline content.

My question, is if anyone here has tried doping San Pedro using DMSO and dopamine (applied to the plant topically, obviously), and if so, did they find this to significantly increase alkaloid content? Any idea what this would increase the percentage of mescaline to? Also, what would be the optimal concentration for the DMSO+dopamine solution?. The available dopamine is a 80mg/ml solution.

Somewhat unrelated, what is your preferred mescaline salt, HCL?

 

[butane]

In my opinion, there are much better (and easier) ways of increasing the mescaline content of Trichocereus cacti. First, don't use San Pedro, get a bridgesii or peruvianus. They're much more potent naturally. Second, take your cutting about a month before you intend to use it and just let it sit out in the sun. Stress causes the cacti to produce more alkaloids, and can double or even triple your potency. I've heard claims of up to five times but I'm not sure I believe it.

Not that there's anything wrong with doping, I just think it's unnecessary. If you're going to do it, I'd recommend just injecting it. I strongly suspect that the DMSO would dissolve the waxy skin of the cactus, and cause some serious damage if not kill it. Perhaps try rubbing a few drops of just plain DMSO on the growth tip of the cactus. If it does cause damage, no biggie, it's on the tip and it'll just pup off. If it seems to be fine, give it a whirl with your dopamine! Although, the skin is designed to absorb water from the atmosphere but leave everything else out, so I'm not sure that the dopamine would get through.

 

[negrogesic]

Yes, San Pedro alkaloid content is quite low, but I already have about 25 or so feet that have been growing for quite time. The plants have already been stressed somewhat, but again, if one has the dopamine, why not give it a try (it should work better than l-dopa)...

I am just not sure what concentration to use. Good idea regarding testing the DMSO on the plant first, perhaps i will try this first...

 

[fizzacyst]

What is the rate limiting step in the biosynthesis? I assume people trying this used levodopa for a specific reason.

It all sounds a little bit hokey to me. Its definitely something you would have to do in small amounts over time, probably making it more efficient to just grow more cacti. Its not like its hard, and if you already have some that have been growing for a while then you are familiar with the [sometimes astoundingly] fast growth rate.

 

[Sentience]

First of all, Pachanoi can be way stronger than Puruvian or Brigdesii. The best pachanoi is stronger than the best Puruvian. Some Puruvian has no mesc at all and is weaker than even stock pachanoi. A really potent breed of pachanoi is really what you want, puruvian being a close second, and stock pachanoi being lower down the list.

Brigdessi is potent but some people feel it is darker or maybe TOO potent. It has natural MAOIs and other alkaloids that really kick it in. Some people freak the fuck out on that variety or regret ingesting so much.

Doping I hear is very easy and not very expensive either. You dont use it topically. You use a syringe and inject it. The cactus will convert it to other alkaloids making it stronger. It couldnt be much easier or less time consuming....definitely faster than growing more cactus.

 

[any major dude]

First of all, Pachanoi can be way stronger than Puruvian or Brigdesii. The best pachanoi is stronger than the best Puruvian. Some Puruvian has no mesc at all and is weaker than even stock pachanoi. A really potent breed of pachanoi is really what you want, puruvian being a close second, and stock pachanoi being lower down the list.

I've read some stuff along these lines before, and i had some extremely bad luck with a peruvianis i purchased before. Could you link to this info as I'd like to check back up on it as its been awhile since ive looked into various cacti potencies.

Brigdessi is potent but some people feel it is darker or maybe TOO potent. It has natural MAOIs and other alkaloids that really kick it in. Some people freak the fuck out on that variety or regret ingesting so much.

I've read a little on this, but the MAOI info i read seemed a bit dubious in my opinion. Again, its been awhile since i looked so if you're basing that on more recent info it may be more accurate.

Doping I hear is very easy and not very expensive either. You dont use it topically. You use a syringe and inject it. The cactus will convert it to other alkaloids making it stronger. It couldnt be much easier or less time consuming....definitely faster than growing more cactus.

Are there any reports of this working and being analyzed scientifically?

 

[trogere]

What is the Brigdessi exactly? First time I see this name.

 

[Sentience]

I have no peer reviewed info on Brigdesii containing MAOIs. Just anecdotal reports, but either there is a different drug in there (or many) or something in there potentiates the experience. I think I could tell the difference in a 'taste test' experience wise.

This is a Brigdesii cacti. Notice how long the spines are....not all of them are THAT pronounced, but they are all quite long.

Here is some stock pachanoi. Not necessarily potent.

This Pachanoi has some nice blue coloration to it...It might be potent or it might not. Hard to say. It could be spectacular.

I think these cacti are really pretty and nice to have growing even if you have no intention of eating them. Lately I have just wanted to look at them and nothing else.



Anyway, I do remember seeing some scientific literature about it actually increasing alkaloid levels. Stressing works too. Removing the spines might work for stressing.

 

[Sentience]

Can somebody shrink that image?

 

[wraithdragon]

Hrm. That top image of the Brigdesii, looks surprisingly like my cactus which I thought to be a peruvian torch.

It's been ages since I looked up the info about it, and maybe I need to go back and look it up again. =S

 

[IamMe90]

I greatly preferred bridgesii qualitatively over pachanoi and didn't find any less euphoria - although I will agree each of the 4 times there was a sort of "cynical" or mad euphoria. which, personally, i love

however, the alkaloid content is so variable between individuals within a species that debating which strain is more potent is basically useless i feel. just my humble opinion - ive had incredible weak and very strong experiences spanning the 4 times i consumed bridgesii.

 

[Aquatic Wombat]

I read somewhere that 80mg of dopamine in a .05 N solution of HCL injected into the cactus will increase potency. I am not a chemist, does it have to be an HCL solution? I have seen some intricate conversions to dilute the solution. There must be a simple way to dilute, like add HCL to an approximate amount of distilled water? I have seen .05N and .05M, what is the difference. Thanks.

 

[DroneLore]

I read somewhere that 80mg of dopamine in a .05 N solution of HCL injected into the cactus will increase potency. I am not a chemist, does it have to be an HCL solution? I have seen some intricate conversions to dilute the solution. There must be a simple way to dilute, like add HCL to an approximate amount of distilled water? I have seen .05N and .05M, what is the difference. Thanks.

For a strong acid like HCl, .05N and .05M are the same. N = Normality = the concentration of H+ ions. M = molarity = concentration of molecules. In the case of HCl, every HCl will turn into a H+ and a Cl- in water. For many other compounds, there may be many AB's present, for every pair of A+ and B-.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong as it's been a while since I studied and I don't want to get too rusty.

 

[drseltsam]

Could you name any source that states that DMSO would be beneficial for the alkaloids? Given the fact DMSO is neither an alkaloid nor a aromatic molecule, the plant would have do quite some work to make this happen

 

[Solipsis]

I think the DMSO is for delivering the doping more effectively as it is an *amazing* solvent. Enables 'topical' application as it can drag things dissolved in it into the skin of e.g. a cactus.

Although dopamine is likely metabolized quickly and can't pass the BBB you probably don't want to spill DMSO with dopamine in it on yourself.

Also it is hopeful that the DMSO doesn't do any weird shit like inappropriately dragging biochemicals through tissue.

 

[drseltsam]

I really find this an interesting experiment. A good fried of mine did her thesis around such a topic: she investigated if a plant would form more alkaloids if certain snails are sitting in it.

To investigate this, one needs a laboratory. One needs at least a hplc ms and the rest of a lab to do this with meaningful results.

If you want to do this by tasting the results, I do not see a lot of danger. Dopamine is not orally active and DMSO will not make it active.

I would be interested how an a/b extraction goes after this and how much metabolic products are still in the plant.

 

[Solipsis]

I meant peripherally but should be ok...

If you want to track the doping one ought to radiolabel the dopamine and then analyze the extract later.

 

[drseltsam]

I think this would be the most solid method to proof was is going on, no doubt about it.

But frankly speaking it would be so much for fun go give this as a undergraduate project to hordes of students, let them infuse the cactus at different points and run the analysis. As a plus, students are usually much cheaper than radio labeled chemicals :D

 

[Aquatic Wombat]

Peyote and Other Psychoactive Cacti by Adam Gottlieb. Chapter: Increasing Potency pages 67-68. In 1966 University of Michigan experiments demonstrated that dopamine is a mescaline precursor and injections 4 weeks before harvesting led to considerable increase of the alkaloid content due to the conversion of dopamine into mescaline. I have read plenty refuting this practice so as Gilda Radner used to say, never mind. The procedure seems like more work than it is worth. Stressing the cacti will naturally boost the alkaloid production, things move slowly with cacti, so stress well in advance.

 

[Volsam]

Stressing the cacti will naturally boost the alkaloid production, things move slowly with cacti, so stress well in advance.

^^^
That's what I've been doing for almost a year... Times of water deprivation, some cold weather, occasional physical snipping - they are going strong no matter what! I wonder what would be the end result?..8)