Quitting/Tapering Thread.

[chugs]

I'm new to this site and wondering who may have an idea how much black tar you would have to use for Suboxone to not have an effect. Would a two gram a day habit be too much to get relief from Suboxone? And if so would it send you into precipitated withdrawals?

If your on suboxone, you can use heroin to break through the partial agonist powers of buprenorphine. But how much is a very subjective question. How long is your piece of string? You refer to black heroin. That's #3 heroin. Its more of a base form of heroin and you need to use an acid (please don't use lemon juice or house hold vinegar) to convert it into a form that you can shoot up. Its inefficient but because of the cheap nature of your heroin you have a much better bang for your buck. Literally.

So think of this way. Say low and go go go. Take small doses until you break through. Because you can never go back from a dose thats far too strong.

Now re buprenorphine and say pure heroin. Shit even street cut shit, taking 1-2 grams would be fucking stupid even if you were taking 24mg of bupe. I find that 300mg of shitty heroin can cut through 8mg of bupe for an hour or two. But that's my physiology, my metabolism, sexy and body weight. See the problem and how many variables there are.

Lastly precipitated withdrawals work one way. Just to make it really clear:

1. Taking suboxone and then using heroin will not make you go into precipitated withdrawals.

2. Taking heroin regularly and then using suboxone will make you go into precipitated withdrawals.

Inducting back onto suboxone is a tricky process. It gets worse and worse the longer you do the back and forth between heroin and suboxone. I used to take my last shot of heroin at 10pm, wake up, go to work and take a 1mg or two of bupe within 12 hours of using. As my habit grew and i ended up taking opiates every day the swaps became harder and harder. Longer waits. And then it happened. The first time I went into precipitated withdrawals was absolute fucking hell because about an hour later my partner did too. Imagine the insanity of not one but two people. With fucking day jobs and responsibilities. argh. Imagine someone visiting whilst your in the middle of this insanity.

And then it got even worse. Inductions have now become impossible. Because my opiate habit is so high that when i switch to heroin i ended up using way to much and i can't afford long heroin taper so i end up inducting from too a high dose of heroin. Your idea of using 1-2 grams is fucking insane not least because when you go back to induct you'll be fucked and go into PD.

The key to an easy induction from heroin to suboxone is dose and how long you've been using. If you taper the fuck down on your suboxone, like 2mg of below. And then had a single low dose of heroin and then went back to your normal suboxone dosing 24 hours later you could probably get a way with it. But if you keep shooting for a couple of days and your dose crept higher then unfortunately you'll have a bad induction.

My recommedation Darkdance917. Don't break. Don't use heroin. DOn't fuck up the program and end up using too much, wasting too much money and then getting stressed coz your urine is getting tested. Don't risk your doctor kicking you (coz i know US doctors are fucking cunts about that shit).

If you want to get high there are ways of using suboxone to get high without fucking your dosing up (too much). Or buy some subutex. Even easier/better.

nb: if you do going into PD don't wait before you redose with bupe. The protocol used to say wait 24 hours but that's wrong. Read this keep taking bupe. Like 2-4mg every 30 mins to come out of the PD.

That said even that has a limit. I hit like 40 mg doing that and had a gates of hell induction that lasted 3 days. Like the first night was so fucking bad. So insanely bad that i would rather cut my arm off then go through that again.

Like i said. The best solution is don't fucking break. Don't do it.

 

[vision conquest]

Hey chugs, as always your advice is solid but the way I am reading his post he is asking, if he is using up to 2g of h a day will he get relief from sub when he stops.



I will say with a habit that big you are going to have some pain there is just no way around it.
It would make things easier if you could taper your habit down before jumping.To stop precipitated wd make sure you are in wd before you take the first dose of sub and start out with a small dose.



You must wait until you are fully hurting man, don't take it as soon as you start to feel the first signs of wd.

I know it is hard but the longer you can wait the better the relief will be when you take the sub.

 

[chugs]

Hey chugs, as always your advice is solid but the way I am reading his post he is asking, if he is using up to 2g of h a day will he get relief from sub when he stops. I will say with a habit that big you are going to have some pain there is just no way around it. It would make things easier if you could taper your habit down before jumping.To stop precipitated wd make sure you are in wd before you take the first dose of sub and start out with a small dose.

Oh definitely VC. Dark Dancer, if you're on 2 grams of heroin a day there is absolutely no way, no way in hell that you can safely induct onto suboxone by yourself at home. I know its going to take alot of effort but DarkDancer you need help. PM anyone of us and we'll help you find a hospital/clinic where you can get admitted as an in-patient to help manage your withdrawals.

You will need a fuck ton of stuff like clonadine and whole lot of other stuff to help you get to the point where you can induct. IF you have the money and time, then taper down from the heroin. Taper down to like 20-30mg a day. but if you don't have the resources to do this and you're going to jump from 2 grams a day then you need medical help.

Otherwise induct onto methadone. There is no risk of precipitated withdrawals.

I inducted from 500mg a day of heroin (after tapering down from over a gram a day) and it was insane. If you took all of the pain i have ever felt and bottled it and forced me to drink it, then you'll have what i went through. It was like all of my withdrawals combined into one. That withdrawal on Trainspotting, that was child's play compared to this. I was fucking hallucinating and hearing shit. My brain was losing it.

I thought i could temper this dope sickness with lyrica. And in a way it worked. I got to the 12 hour mark by sleeping. From 12 - 18 hours i took lyrica which caused me to pass out. From 18-24 hours i stopped taking lyrica in fear that it could cause some induction problems. So i took the pain of full blown dope sickness. It was like all of the clocks stopped moving. Every second was agonising pain.

When I'm going through this normally i get the full sweats and am hot as fuck but with the lyrica it made me cold. So cold. So when i took my first shot of subutex (i ended up taking 40mg over the next 8 hours) it didn't take hold. It didn't work. In fact the dope sickness went from 10 out of 10 to 11 out of 10. I was so cold. I couldn't get warm even with half a dozen layers, heaters and everything. But at the same time the hot sweats would return. And you can't stop moving. I'm trembling, shaking, moaning, crying basically going into fits i think. shaking like mad. Normally i like walking when i'm withdrawing. the walking helps me deal with it right, A good hike really gets the natural opioids flowing. But because of the lyrica and the extreme cold that day (it was like the coldest day of the year which din't help shit) i couldn't go walking. I was so cold, exhausted and just in so much agony that i could't walk even a block.

It was like a nightmare turning from a dream into reality. My mind was losing it. I found myself in these weird schizophrenic conversation and weird thought loops. When it ws finally 24th hour istartedputting suboxone under my tounge, shooting subutex. I drank more lyrica. Nothing seem to work. It got worse actually (if that was even possible). There was only one thing that gave me relief was a shower. I spent hours in the shower just sitting in the water, or lying on the floor of the bathroom in absolute darkness whilst hearing the water fall. I actually ended up passing out in the shower and flooding the house. (the roomies weren't happy to say the least). I was Dante in hell. Just rethinking it is making me feel sick again. It took about a week to get back to normal, even with a fuck ton of bupe.

argh.

I am pretty certain VC and Dark Dancer that alot of heroin is getting cut with oxy and fent, long life agonist. The heroin these days is no longer half as europhoric as it used to be. Even the rush is bullshit. You basically just go straight onto the nod. I know heaps of people who used to swap back and froth between heroin and bupe with no problems. But since around 2012 everyone has complained about having problems inducting onto bupe. Everyone has gone through precipitated withdrawals and situations where they've waited 20-24 plus hours but still having issues. But here is the kicker. It isn't always the case and some inductions are fine.

Like if you have a single big shot of heroin, and then resume taking your bupe 18-24 hours later - basically little to no change in dosing - then you'll be fine. Its when you use heroin 2 + days and then try to induct where the problems start happening.
Its all about the size of the dose and the length time which plays into the whole thing about dope sickness aren't really withdrawals

Anyway, taper taper taper and mroe taper before thinking about inducting onto suboxone. or induct onto methadone if you can't

 

[BrentlyD]

The "SWIM" thing just doesn't bother me. Everyone has their own way of writing... Why does SWIEveryone hate the "SWIM" thing?? LOL

 

[chugs]

because its fucking stupid that law enforcement wouldn't prosecute you simply because you used the word SWIM in your admission. "oh judge it wasn't me, it was SWIM yeah". You'd be laughed out of the court room into a cosy prison cell where you'd get fucked up ever harder by your cell mates who'd be so flabbergasted with how stupid you were that you thought saying SWIM would some how protect you from being prosecuted.

Besides i find its really annoying to read because it breaks up the flow of the sentence.

 

[carolineduff93]

I just recently quit doing opiate/suboxone. I started with a really bad roxycodone addiction and just like many others I switched to suboxone/subutec to get off the opiates. Then decided after 2 years of buy/selling/using subs I decided I was over the bondage to addiction. I wont go into what lead me to that decision. But after "getting clean" like 7 times in my life I decided I was seriously done this time. 13 days clean now and feeling a thousand times better. YAY! but my question is this: to help with withdrawals I was able to get some Lyrica and Valium to help. Which absolutely made the process SO much easier for anyone wondering. I took 100mg of Lyrica, and a 5mg Valium once in the morning when I woke up, and that same amount at bedtime. I've done that for 7 days now. So.. should I expect to experience withdrawals from this amount for this long? I'm not really sure what to expect and any info or opinions would help bc Ill be out of both soon and I'm trying to figure out what to expect even though those doses are super low IMO (compared to what I've seen some people on here take for OP withdrawal)

PS, I tried to find where I could start my own post on this thread, but couldn't for the life of me figure out how to hell to do that. lol. I'm new here if you couldn't tell.

 

[BrentlyD]

because its fucking stupid that law enforcement wouldn't prosecute you simply because you used the word SWIM in your admission. "oh judge it wasn't me, it was SWIM yeah". You'd be laughed out of the court room into a cosy prison cell where you'd get fucked up ever harder by your cell mates who'd be so flabbergasted with how stupid you were that you thought saying SWIM would some how protect you from being prosecuted.

Besides i find its really annoying to read because it breaks up the flow of the sentence.

Oh Gosh, it's not that big of a deal. I've seen posts all over BL of people being accosted and harassed over using swim. If they're going to jail and all of the stuff you said, WE ARE ALL GOING! Folks just love telling others what to do...

 

[andyturbo]

Folks also get annoyed with the guideline being broken and its a guideline for a reason. Its fucking annoying lol

 

[spacejunk]

It's from another particularly lame forum, which is partly why it's annoying.
People find dumb, redundant things annoying. Not that hard to understand is it?
Anyway...back to "quitting and tapering"

 

[Halif2]

Just going to say that L-Tyrosine has had a huge effect on my ability to jump off opiates. That and magnesium. Holy Hesus, if you've tried to cold turkey oold school before you know what it's like. Insomnia and whatnot kicking your legs around and sweating. Deconstructing yourself. It's so much easier if you take some of these supplements .

Honestly, I wish I had known about thiese things beofre. Excuse me. I am in the process of "offing".

 

[chugs]

I just recently quit doing opiate/suboxone. I started with a really bad roxycodone addiction and just like many others I switched to suboxone/subutec to get off the opiates. Then decided after 2 years of buy/selling/using subs I decided I was over the bondage to addiction. I wont go into what lead me to that decision. But after "getting clean" like 7 times in my life I decided I was seriously done this time. 13 days clean now and feeling a thousand times better. YAY! but my question is this: to help with withdrawals I was able to get some Lyrica and Valium to help. Which absolutely made the process SO much easier for anyone wondering. I took 100mg of Lyrica, and a 5mg Valium once in the morning when I woke up, and that same amount at bedtime. I've done that for 7 days now. So.. should I expect to experience withdrawals from this amount for this long? I'm not really sure what to expect and any info or opinions would help bc Ill be out of both soon and I'm trying to figure out what to expect even though those doses are super low IMO (compared to what I've seen some people on here take for OP withdrawal)

PS, I tried to find where I could start my own post on this thread, but couldn't for the life of me figure out how to hell to do that. lol. I'm new here if you couldn't tell.

Hi Caroline

so two things. Fristly. Why not go onto a program? After a few months they'll give you takeway dosing (espescially if your working and have a good record). You don't need to blackmarket suboxone. Although something tells me your in America so if that's the case i fully understand that its a huge cost and not easy to get on a program over there.

secondly.

Buprenorphine has two metabolites. B3G and B6G. The B6G is the good shit and it lasts about 5-7 days (half life is 72 hours). You should definitely be feeling sick. Now the sickness that you call withdrawals is ironically caused by the buprenorphine itself. So the duration of the withdrawal syndrome is tied to how long B3G lasts (it has a longer half life).

The key issue is your metabolism. When going through withdrawals one tends to shut down, stop eating and moving. Its hard. I know it. But this is the worst thing you can do. It will extend the duration of the dope sickness. Exercise, large meals, sugar. Things that make your metabolism speed are what you need.

The lyrica will help and if you can get access to a doctor ask for some clonadine. Which will definitely help at night.

Thirdly

You didn't tell us at what dose you stopped at. Did you taper down to 2 mg and stop or did you get down lower? Buprenorphine is 4 times stronger then morphine. So for example 2 mg of bupe = approx 100 MG of morphine.

Imagine stopping cold turkey at 100mg a day of pure morphine/heroin. You'd be fucked. So the trick is to taper the hell down. To like a sliver of a strip.

Anyway please let us know how your going.

 

[Crankinit]

Chugs have you actually jumped off bupe before after a substantial time on it? If my schedule keeps up I'll be doing my jump early next year, but I've yet to speak to anyone who's actually done it themselves (been on it for 5 years, so I'm not anticipating a fun time).

 

[chugs]

Chugs have you actually jumped off bupe before after a substantial time on it? If my schedule keeps up I'll be doing my jump early next year, but I've yet to speak to anyone who's actually done it themselves (been on it for 5 years, so I'm not anticipating a fun time).

Well yes and no. I've stopped taking my bupe sure, for a substantial period of time. But yeah, i ended up taking far yummier partial agonists so I didn't really feel much discomfort.

But no i haven't suffered the acute "withdrawal" phase caused by of buprenorphine-3-glucornide . What I have learnt is that you should not be stopping your suboxone on anything less then 0.200mg (and even then i would endeavour to go lower). Do not, i repeat, stop on 2mg. That is like 100mg of morphine. Imagine shooting 100mg a day of pure smack and stopping on that.

But good luck.

I've managed to convince my prescriber to consider prescribing ibudilast. I've been emailing doctors to get information on the trials before i got to the TGA for the request. I'm going to try and stop bupe with the aid of ibudilast

Here is a article that talks about the difference with bupe and morphine and how they activate TLR2 and TLR4 in different ways - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4709736/

 

[Crankinit]

Trust me, I have no intention of dropping off at 2mg Just the thought makes me shudder.

 

[Lily7252]

Hello World . . . I have been taking oxycontin and oxycodone for decades due to a nerve injury. My all time high dose was 90mg oxycontin ER and 30 mg oxcodone IR. So I’ve been tapering for about 14 months now and it has been very hard due to severe depression and anger. Also, I’ve recently divorced so I don’t have a strong support network. Still, I know the depression is from the withdrawal because if I take an extra pill I feel fine. Anyway, I’m down to 15/20mg per day and I hope to be totally off in about a month. I live in the US and my state has a severe heroin epidemic and everyone is blaming the pain meds. The pain management doctor and the expense of the medication is too expensive so I have to go off. After reading these posts, I think suboxone is not the answer. My doctor did give me tyzanadine and neurontin but I am still extremely depressed. The PAWS are very difficult; because I have been on these meds for decades. If any of you wonderful strangers could offer me some support it would mean the world to me. BTW, thank you Bluelight for this site.

 

[chugs]

Hello World . . . I have been taking oxycontin and oxycodone for decades due to a nerve injury.

Do you still have the injury? If so then you have a legitimate reason for using pain relief. Ideally though for a long term injury like that you should really try to find a pain management clinic and look at all the different techniques and systems that don't depend on opiate/opiod pain relief.

So I’ve been tapering for about 14 months now and it has been very hard due to severe depression and anger.......Anyway, I’m down to 15/20mg per day and I hope to be totally off in about a month.

Keep tapering is all we can suggest. Longer if you have to. I get the financial pressure but the longer you do the taper the better it will be.

Still, I know the depression is from the withdrawal because if I take an extra pill I feel fine.

The problem is that the pills themselves are causing the very chemicals that cause the depression.

I live in the US and my state has a severe heroin epidemic and everyone is blaming the pain meds.

I have setup on my computer a system that shows me only news in relation to opiates. What is happening out there is insane. THe amount of towns and cities suffering from fatal overdoses, trafficking, arrests, addiction and all that is just beyond count.

What is sad is how the response everywhere is the same. A bunch of addicts get up and say how heroin and opiates are evil and bad. The cops get up and tell concerned parents what to look for. Someone gets up and says how there is no rehab in the are or not enough places.

Then in the same publication the city prosecutors , running politicians and senior police officials all come out with the same bullshit. We're gonna stop drugs, fight the scourge, save our children blah blah. Conveniently ignoring the fact that they've been fighting drugs for the last 40-50 years, spending billions a year and failing spectacularly. Its like they're parasites.

The pain management doctor and the expense of the medication is too expensive so I have to go off.

well that's the kicker isn't it.

Look if you have a legitimate injury then why not use painkillers to improve your life? That is if there is no way to actually fix your problem. I think you should consider migrating to a country where health insurance/health costs are significantly different.

After reading these posts, I think suboxone is not the answer.

Suboxone and/or methadone are powerful painrelieving. Many chronic pain suffers have found great solace with them. Oxy turned out to be a huge lie especially regarding its duration. Its a terrible pain reliever.

Buprenorphine (the main ingredient in suboxone) can be prescribed in a smaller dose in a product called temgesic. Ask your doctor if its cheaper to go onto temgesic, methadone or suboxone.

That said with suboxone and methadone you'll probably have to dose for a short time at a clinic and that means mixing with "junkies".

My doctor did give me tyzanadine and neurontin but I am still extremely depressed.

bandaids. the root problem is that opiates in particular, but most drugs appear to be causing an inflammation response. These inflammatory chemicals are the cause of some depressions and anxiety disorders, especially at lower levels.

In individuals who suffered abuse or exposed in the womb or soon after, to stress hormones from their mother that they have a malfunctioning brain that is producing these inflammation products. Imagine these chemicals causing sorts of problems, aches, pains, depression, anxiety. Bam the moment you get some opiates its like finally getting relief. Not known that they're only going amplify this inflammation response.

This causes depression, anxiety and when i stop taking opiates it is the primary cause of what is known to junkies far wide as "dope sickness". Its also the physiological cause of PAWs.

The PAWS are very difficult; because I have been on these meds for decades.

see above

If any of you wonderful strangers could offer me some support it would mean the world to me. BTW, thank you Bluelight for this site.

Learn, stay on BL Aus:Drugs. We need more do'ers in our group. And we don't bite much.

But we do swear way to much. Especially SpaceJunk...

 

[TBD7LadyLuck]

Tapering off suboxone w/ only 2 strips? Possible? Help!

So I'd been sober almost 7 years from opiates..until I fell off 2 weeks ago.. my very last time I used subs and tapered myself. I was using IV then and quite a lot. For the past 3 weeks I have snorted approx 0.1 g/day. I knew the day I fell off I couldn't continue and revert back.... plus I got my kids back just a few months ago. I got lucky and came across 2 strips yesterday eve. I did my last 0.1 approx 7 hours ago....when is the earliest I can take a Teeny piece of a strip of needed? And is it at all humanly possible to taper using just 2 8mg strips and still be okay enough to function? (Since it hasn't gotten bad?) I can't lose my kids any advice/knowledge/links even just positivity is so much appreciated!

 

[Crankinit]

So I'd been sober almost 7 years from opiates..until I fell off 2 weeks ago.. my very last time I used subs and tapered myself. I was using IV then and quite a lot. For the past 3 weeks I have snorted approx 0.1 g/day. I knew the day I fell off I couldn't continue and revert back.... plus I got my kids back just a few months ago. I got lucky and came across 2 strips yesterday eve. I did my last 0.1 approx 7 hours ago....when is the earliest I can take a Teeny piece of a strip of needed? And is it at all humanly possible to taper using just 2 8mg strips and still be okay enough to function? (Since it hasn't gotten bad?) I can't lose my kids any advice/knowledge/links even just positivity is so much appreciated!

Unless you're getting insanely strong H, 0.1g a day/3 weeks should be low enough that you can taper with 16mg. It might not be comfortable, but it should keep you functional.

I'd wait at least 24 hours from your last dose of heroin before taking the suboxone, I've personally found any less than that risks just making things worse.

Good luck.

 

[TBD7LadyLuck]

Unless you're getting insanely strong H, 0.1g a day/3 weeks should be low enough that you can taper with 16mg. It might not be comfortable, but it should keep you functional.

I'd wait at least 24 hours from your last dose of heroin before taking the suboxone, I've personally found any less than that risks just making things worse.

Good luck.

Crankinit: I did this year's ago with 4 strips in 2 weeks with no problems at all... I was taking 4mg/day at that point and had to move to a new city and only could bring 4 with me... but I forget how I should do it. It's been 14 hours and I just took 1/8 and feel just fine... wasn't TOO bad yet to begin with, though. Just irritable, nausea, restless legs a little and the runs (Sry tmi) a little.... hot n cold flashes too but could still eat and walk around and sleep (thanks to a script for benzos I have stockpiled because I rarely take them)... since I wasn't on subs to begin with I really don't know how much I need or what 'regimen' if you will, to go by... any suggestions?

 

[Lily7252]

Chugs,
Thanks for responding and I will take your advice and keep tapering . . . I just want off now but I am too old and have been on these meds too long to jump off even at this low dose. Just having someone to talk to about it is so helpful; not something I want to advertise. I didn’t know about the inflammation response. I looked up temgesic on GoodRx.com and this site says it’s no longer manufactured but I’ll ask my doctor. I’ll keep reading and I won’t swear much .