How to keep the magic

[Innerpeace]

I see a million and one questions on these forums about losing the magic and not keeping it. Please Read Carefully and accurately

example heres a common true question I got some what recently:

Q. I just discovered mdma and its the greatest ive used 17 times in the past four months but the magic isnt quite there. My dose has been in the normal range, usually a pill a roll or at most 1.5, so ive studied about responsibly and am highly educated on this subject even moreso than all my friends that roll. The rolls are still fun and such, but its not like it used to be my first two times. my first two times were four days apart then I did it about once a week afterwards what happened?

A. Okay so basically youve abused mdma (Im going to go as far as saying, this goes for any thing that releases serotonin, whether it be 4-fma, or a typtamine-lets not get ahead of ourselves here shall we) The first time is always so fun because youve never felt those types of feelings before those chemicals. what happens in studies it shows that depending on how often youve rolled, genetics, not taking any medications and such that effect effect neurotransmitters like ssri's ssni-- or any anti psychotic medications, that serotonin replenishes itself in 1-4 weeks generally, if you are older -again genetics etc- it can take longer. Having said that, just because your serotonin has replenished itself does not mean the magic will be there...okay so your first five times it may be okay to roll once a month, and after that once every three months or longer, due to magic loss. I know you people that have abused empathogen-entactogen's in the past hate to hear this-- you need a long break between like years to regain the magic or it'll never come back period If you have taking years breaks , you need to keep it to once every three to four months as a rule of thumb and this is most likely the very, very minimum. There are many experienced users that have done this for years and we all agree the minimum wait time is about six months for optimal experience so I know its not the answer many were looking for, I wish the wait time was shorter myself for empathogen-entactogen's, It takes terrific self discipline to be able to wait three months, let alone six in between rolls-that said ask yourself is it worth it to yourself to keep the magic?

Thank you for your question and I know ive helped out with my research and more importantly own experience, along with friends sharing their experiences that have stuck with this and its not some fad, like most that come on the forums comes for a few months and couple years and are gone because they abused. This is research, experience from real people that sorry to say---have abused , but, have regained the magic after abuse and have kept the magic using once to twice a year on empathogen-entactogen' drugs.




After you used ten plus times its a must to take 3 plus months off before using anything (including if one uses other phenethylamines or typtamines so pick

your choice)

lets keep on track though we are only taking about empathogen-entactogen's, even then, from my own experience three months isnt enough and tolerance is

still built up (you're immune to the roll and the magic isnt there, it feels good, and theres no magic. would you rather wait half a year and have a truly

amazing magically experience or do every three months and have a sub par experience? there may be a hack and that may be once every four to five

months , and one could try; however, to be sure, best to wait six months


I am just writing this not for harm reduction sake; although thats good, its for magic keeping sake.

Appears to be once every six months for empathogen-entactogen's for those wanting to optimally keep the magic.

 

[Innerpeace]

btw ive changed my thinking since then

once every three months minimum is optimal from the start

The longer you wait the better

 

[epic11]

btw ive changed my thinking since then

once every three months minimum is optimal from the start

The longer you wait the better

hahahahahaha. Yep. I used to preach the 1 month minimum, but nahhhhhh. We were kidding ourselves. Its about 3+ months from the start. Good call there.

 

[Bearlove]

My opinion changes on this massively (depending on how good a time I had on my last 'roll'), I've done the weekly route (for years) and always had a blast, really amazing times. I've skipped a few weeks, months and skipped the 6 months etc but I really don't notice that much of a difference.

This is my honest and personal opinion and I'm not telling you that this is safe or something to copy as we all react differently to the same drug.

How to keep the magic, know 'your' limits - test your stuff and don't overthink it, yes your going to have a comedown but it passes.

 

[Future94]

Ive always spaced three months from the start (done it 5 times now) but still, the last time i felt diminishing effects. The lights were not sparkling as much, and the music wasnt all that intense like the 1, 2, 3 times. But the roll was amazing, its just that everything wasnt so "cool" as the first three times.

I was a liiittle bit disappointed because waiting three months i believed i had the best self dicipline ever lol. But yeah i miss the lights, the extreme bodygasms and the insane music enhancement. I still get it but as mentioned to a lesser degree... Thinking about having a six month or something after the summer

 

[scarlet_tunic]

Yeah... this is super useful. Thanks for posting this, Innerpeace. This explains a lot with my experience too! I notice I am coming onto 10+ times of use, and it is about at this point that it's starting to 'wane.' In the beginning I wouldn't have to take long breaks at all. 2 - 3 months would be more than enough time to feel it each time! And boy was it something else. But now 2 - 3 months doesn't cut it. I think I might be done with M for a while and just forget about it... then maybe next year or so I can rediscover it at some point.

 

[Rossak]

I think a big part of the "magic" is simply that your brain has never felt that particular bag of emotions.

 

[Mrruns4fun]

I see a million and one questions on these forums about losing the magic and not keeping it. Please Read Carefully and accurately

example heres a common true question I got some what recently:

Q. I just discovered mdma and its the greatest ive used 17 times in the past four months but the magic isnt quite there. My dose has been in the normal range, usually a pill a roll or at most 1.5, so ive studied about responsibly and am highly educated on this subject even moreso than all my friends that roll. The rolls are still fun and such, but its not like it used to be my first two times. my first two times were four days apart then I did it about once a week afterwards what happened?

A. Okay so basically youve abused mdma (Im going to go as far as saying, this goes for any thing that releases serotonin, whether it be 4-fma, or a typtamine-lets not get ahead of ourselves here shall we) The first time is always so fun because youve never felt those types of feelings before those chemicals. what happens in studies it shows that depending on how often youve rolled, genetics, not taking any medications and such that effect effect neurotransmitters like ssri's ssni-- or any anti psychotic medications, that serotonin replenishes itself in 1-4 weeks generally, if you are older -again genetics etc- it can take longer. Having said that, just because your serotonin has replenished itself does not mean the magic will be there...okay so your first five times it may be okay to roll once a month, and after that once every three months or longer, due to magic loss. I know you people that have abused empathogen-entactogen's in the past hate to hear this-- you need a long break between like years to regain the magic or it'll never come back period If you have taking years breaks , you need to keep it to once every three to four months as a rule of thumb and this is most likely the very, very minimum. There are many experienced users that have done this for years and we all agree the minimum wait time is about six months for optimal experience so I know its not the answer many were looking for, I wish the wait time was shorter myself for empathogen-entactogen's, It takes terrific self discipline to be able to wait three months, let alone six in between rolls-that said ask yourself is it worth it to yourself to keep the magic?

Thank you for your question and I know ive helped out with my research and more importantly own experience, along with friends sharing their experiences that have stuck with this and its not some fad, like most that come on the forums comes for a few months and couple years and are gone because they abused. This is research, experience from real people that sorry to say---have abused , but, have regained the magic after abuse and have kept the magic using once to twice a year on empathogen-entactogen' drugs.




After you used ten plus times its a must to take 3 plus months off before using anything (including if one uses other phenethylamines or typtamines so pick

your choice)

lets keep on track though we are only taking about empathogen-entactogen's, even then, from my own experience three months isnt enough and tolerance is

still built up (you're immune to the roll and the magic isnt there, it feels good, and theres no magic. would you rather wait half a year and have a truly

amazing magically experience or do every three months and have a sub par experience? there may be a hack and that may be once every four to five

months , and one could try; however, to be sure, best to wait six months


I am just writing this not for harm reduction sake; although thats good, its for magic keeping sake.

Appears to be once every six months for empathogen-entactogen's for those wanting to optimally keep the magic.

Pretty Much, as with any drug, don't abuse or else it'll fuck your brain and then you'll have bad comedowns/ won't have the optimal roll. I've had 4 capsules of Molly and 3 hits of e in the past 3 years, and I honestly am saving MDMA for <<some festival>>. I recently got ten grams of some FIRE rock and a point would lead to a very enjoyable experience for me. 130mg made my novice girlfriend roll too hard and throw up. And then I gave 150mg to my friend who has abused e and Molly and he got "mood elevation" in other words, he could take a full gram and he still wouldn't roll as hard as I do off a point. Doing drugs isn't a dick measuring contest, the turtle always gets the most turnt.

 

[Mazzab]

Pretty Much, as with any drug, don't abuse or else it'll fuck your brain and then you'll have bad comedowns/ won't have the optimal roll. I've had 4 capsules of Molly and 3 hits of e in the past 3 years, and I honestly am saving MDMA for <<some festival>>. I recently got ten grams of some FIRE rock and a point would lead to a very enjoyable experience for me. 130mg made my novice girlfriend roll too hard and throw up. And then I gave 150mg to my friend who has abused e and Molly and he got "mood elevation" in other words, he could take a full gram and he still wouldn't roll as hard as I do off a point. Doing drugs isn't a dick measuring contest, the turtle always gets the most turnt.

Please refrain from posting incriminating information like future events your attending and the fact that you personally posse illegal substances. The amount your stating in the USA could land you in quite a bit of trouble...LEO does monitor sites like this. You should be more careful

 

[Jabberwocky]

that serotonin replenishes itself in 1-4 weeks generally, if you are older -again genetics etc- it can take longer.

Please STOP spreading nonsense like 'serotonin needs 1-4 weeks to replenish.' Serotonin depletion is a myth. Your brain is constantly synthesizing serotonin.

Changes to the binding affinity of the serotonin RECEPTOR complex (the sensitivity of the receptor) is the issue. And that binding affinity is very specific -- so specific that the following is true

"Tolerance studies also support differences in mechanisms of action. In one study, MDMA was consumed at 9:00 AM each day for almost a week (120 milligrams the first day and 160 milligrams each subsequent day) and by the fifth day there were no effects from the drug except for some mydriasis. And even this appeared to be lost on the sixth day. At this point of total tolerance, there was consumed (on day #7, at 9:00 AM) 120 milligrams of MDA and the response to it was substantially normal with proper chronology, teeth clench, and at most only a slight decrease in mental change. A complete holiday from any drug for another 6 days led to the reversal of this tolerance, in that 120 milligrams of MDMA had substantially the full expected effects. The fact that MDMA and MDA are not cross-tolerant strengthens the argument that they act in different ways, and at different sites in the brain."

-Alexander Shulgin, PIHKAL #109

If serotonin depletion existed, MDA would have had no effect.

There is also the confounding factor of the difference in activity between the 2 stereo-isomers of MDMA (left and right sided molecules) -- the r-isomer is more active at the 5HT2A receptor, and the s-isomer is more CNS stimulating.


As far as HOW to "reset" the receptors: a tryptophan deficient diet. Flooding the brain with 5-HTP to increase serotonin levels is the completely wrong thing to do. In rats kept on a tryptophan deficient diet for 3 weeks, serotonin synthesis was reduced 90%, but

the binding affinity of 5HT2A receptors was upregulated. -- Exactly what is needed in people who have downregulated receptors due to overuse of serotonin releasing agents.

 

[Innerpeace]

Please STOP spreading nonsense like 'serotonin needs 1-4 weeks to replenish.' Serotonin depletion is a myth. Your brain is constantly synthesizing serotonin.

Changes to the binding affinity of the serotonin RECEPTOR complex (the sensitivity of the receptor) is the issue. And that binding affinity is very specific -- so specific that the following is true

"Tolerance studies also support differences in mechanisms of action. In one study, MDMA was consumed at 9:00 AM each day for almost a week (120 milligrams the first day and 160 milligrams each subsequent day) and by the fifth day there were no effects from the drug except for some mydriasis. And even this appeared to be lost on the sixth day. At this point of total tolerance, there was consumed (on day #7, at 9:00 AM) 120 milligrams of MDA and the response to it was substantially normal with proper chronology, teeth clench, and at most only a slight decrease in mental change. A complete holiday from any drug for another 6 days led to the reversal of this tolerance, in that 120 milligrams of MDMA had substantially the full expected effects. The fact that MDMA and MDA are not cross-tolerant strengthens the argument that they act in different ways, and at different sites in the brain."

-Alexander Shulgin, PIHKAL #109

If serotonin depletion existed, MDA would have had no effect.

There is also the confounding factor of the difference in activity between the 2 stereo-isomers of MDMA (left and right sided molecules) -- the r-isomer is more active at the 5HT2A receptor, and the s-isomer is more CNS stimulating.


As far as HOW to "reset" the receptors: a tryptophan deficient diet. Flooding the brain with 5-HTP to increase serotonin levels is the completely wrong thing to do. In rats kept on a tryptophan deficient diet for 3 weeks, serotonin synthesis was reduced 90%, but

the binding affinity of 5HT2A receptors was upregulated. -- Exactly what is needed in people who have downregulated receptors due to overuse of serotonin releasing agents.

you seem to get lost in he little details and while they are important the most important thing is to take long breaks between uses

 

[Black]

If serotonin depletion existed, MDA would have had no effect.

There is also the confounding factor of the difference in activity between the 2 stereo-isomers of MDMA (left and right sided molecules) -- the r-isomer is more active at the 5HT2A receptor, and the s-isomer is more CNS stimulating.


As far as HOW to "reset" the receptors: a tryptophan deficient diet. Flooding the brain with 5-HTP to increase serotonin levels is the completely wrong thing to do. In rats kept on a tryptophan deficient diet for 3 weeks, serotonin synthesis was reduced 90%, but

the binding affinity of 5HT2A receptors was upregulated. -- Exactly what is needed in people who have downregulated receptors due to overuse of serotonin releasing agents.

afaik shlugin revised his position and stated that there was indeed cross tolerance between mdma and mda.
5-ht2a is mostly for psychedelics.
mdma works fine after having taken lsd and isn't diminished at all (like another dose of lsd would be). 5-ht2b is much more important for mdma.

what do you mean by upregulating the binding affinity?

 

[Jabberwocky]

afaik shlugin revised his position and stated that there was indeed cross tolerance between mdma and mda.
5-ht2a is mostly for psychedelics.
mdma works fine after having taken lsd and isn't diminished at all (like another dose of lsd would be). 5-ht2b is much more important for mdma.

what do you mean by upregulating the binding affinity?

Shulgin updated the duration of action of MDA.

the 5HT2A receptor is responsible for the psychedelic effects from MDMA.

Downreglation of binding affinity of the receptor to the neurotransmitter and/or agonist is the main factor in tolerance and/or loss of specific effect -- for any drug.

Basically serotonin and MDMA don't stick as well to the receptor sites, also SERT (the transporter) doesn't bind as well.

Upregulation means the binding affinity gets stronger -- back towards normal in the case of previous downregulation.

 

[Jabberwocky]

you seem to get lost in he little details and while they are important the most important thing is to take long breaks between uses

Maybe for some people. For others, they never lose the magic.

 

[Black]

Shulgin updated the duration of action of MDA.

the 5HT2A receptor is responsible for the psychedelic effects from MDMA.

also true.

yeah, but the psychedelic effects are only a minor component.

Downreglation of binding affinity of the receptor to the neurotransmitter and/or agonist is the main factor in tolerance and/or loss of specific effect -- for any drug.

Basically serotonin and MDMA don't stick as well to the receptor sites, also SERT (the transporter) doesn't bind as well.

Upregulation means the binding affinity gets stronger -- back towards normal in the case of previous downregulation.

i think you're a bit confused here. downregulation usually means there are less actual proteins there and not that the affinity is lower (yes of course you sometimes have some phosphorylation of receptors making them less sensitive, but we have no indication that that's what's happening with mdma (or do you have a paper i missed?) ; but we definitely see the levels of the respective proteins dropping).

 

[Jabberwocky]

i think you're a bit confused here. downregulation usually means there are less actual proteins there and not that the affinity is lower (yes of course you sometimes have some phosphorylation of receptors making them less sensitive, but we have no indication that that's what's happening with mdma (or do you have a paper i missed?) ; but we definitely see the levels of the respective proteins dropping).

Yup -- here is the paper "Repeated administration of MDMA causes transient down-regulation of serotonin 5-HT₂ receptors"


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002839089290126A

it's behind a paywall


But the issues are: decreased 5HT binding, transient downregulation, and decreased sert binding at the receptor complex

decreased sert binding does indicate some sort of morphological change to the receptor complex (at least in some individuals) -- or a change to the gene encoding for sert (unlikely)

 

[Innerpeace]

Maybe for some people. For others, they never lose the magic.

myself, and many on this board would strongly disagree based on experience, that the feeling wasn't the same after using way too much, too often. Did you know Ann Shulgin in a conference few years ago mentioned no more than 3-4 times a year.

why are you writing all this chemistry stuff? what is your expirience with empathogeons? I can read science chemsitry stuff all day long, but I have the experience buddy, ive abused mdma fifteen years ago using about 30 nights in six months. Science stuff is fine but experience is where its at. do you disagree that long breaks are not required to keep the magic on empathogeons in general?

 

[Jabberwocky]

do you disagree that long breaks are not required to keep the magic on empathogeons in general?

Depending on the individual, and also the substances co-administered with empathogens, I categorically disagree that long breaks are required by everyone to keep the magic.

As far as basis for my position -- Lets just say, the first time I registered on this forum (the old version) was over 15 years ago.

30 nights in 6 months would have been considered light usage by many former acquaintances. TH and SAT every or every other week was pretty standard, some partook more often.

 

[Innerpeace]

Depending on the individual, and also the substances co-administered with empathogens, I categorically disagree that long breaks are required by everyone to keep the magic.

As far as basis for my position -- Lets just say, the first time I registered on this forum (the old version) was over 15 years ago.

30 nights in 6 months would have been considered light usage by many former acquaintances. TH and SAT every or every other week was pretty standard, some partook more often.

its common knowledge using more than once every few months isnt a good thing for empathogeon class. Hell lot of vets that have used mdma for 20-30 ive talked with use 1-2 a year and say that works for them

from my own experience I disagree. you answer all your friends experiences, are you just an intellectual bore or do you have any of your own expirience and have used every weekend for months on end ?

 

[scarlet_tunic]

I think a big part of the "magic" is simply that your brain has never felt that particular bag of emotions.

Lol, best answer here!
That's true, though...