Tongue Thrusting/ irreversible disorders?

[sagittalien]

Hello!

I used to have severe social anxiety, and then I discovered mdma at a festival and it changed my life! All of a sudden I could connect with others and it was the best feeling ever. I became socially dependent on it and at events or festivals I felt like I had to be on it. When I was 19-21 years old I would roll every month-3 months, 1-3 days at a time.(usually 2 nights in a row every 1-3 months)

I was really stupid and reckless with it.
I never really tested it any time. If someone said it was mdma or mda, I would take it. People have said that I've probably taken meth several times, and other drugs, thinking that it was mdma. Wish I could take this back, but it's happened and I have learned and changed.

I finally grew up and learned how to connect with others and dance sober and I feel really great emotionally. However, I have developed a tongue thrust which has caused my front teeth to shift very drastically over the past year and a half. I am getting braces, but they said that if I do not correct my tongue thrust then not even the braces will help and my teeth will shift back.

I don't know for a fact that mdma (and whatever other drugs were said to be "mdma" but weren't...) caused the tongue thrusting, but I don't think I ever had this problem before. I have not rolled in 5 months and plan on not doing it again.
My mouth often clenches, and my tongue always pushes against my teeth -especially at night while sleeping.

My fear is that I have caused some neural damage (or something like that) that is irreversible and that I will not be able to retrain my tongue to stop pressing against my teeth.

I would be very grateful for any thoughts on this or experiences -thank you!

 

[willy33]

What you are describing sounds like a condition called tardive dyskinesia, which is a neurological disorder characterized by involuntary movements of the face and jaw. It usually affects people who have been on anti-psychotic medication for a long period of time, and is more prevalent among those on the older meds (typical anti-psychotics like Haldol and Thorazine), although it can also affect those on the newer atypical anti-psychotics (like Seroquel and Zyprexa).

The prevailing theory is this movement disorder is caused by a lack of dopamine, a neurotransmitter implicated in movement and psychosis (among other things). People suffering from psychosis have a surplus of dopamine, whether organic in nature (schizophrenia) or self-induced (amphetamine psychosis). These anti-psychotic medications are dopamine antagonists, meaning they 'block' or 'reduce' the amount of dopamine in the brain. Great for psychosis, potentially detrimental to movement.

Having said all that (and apologies if you already knew this stuff), MDMA works on the serotonin neurotransmitter, so from my understanding (albeit rudimentary) ecstasy shouldn't cause tardive dyskinesia. But all drugs affect dopamine in some way, so it's *possible* what you are experiencing is related to MDMA use...

But i'm just a psychonaut who enjoys learning about how different drugs work, so by no means an expert (or even close). So.....do you think you could talk openly to your doctor about this? They will be able to provide you with much more authoritative answers. I know it may be a foreign notion, to engage in full-disclosure with your doctor, but if he or she is a good doc, they will help you and not make a moral judgement (of course, they are human and I have had doctors be real judgmental dicks in the past, so maybe....maybe play it by ear.)

Either way you ought to seek some form of professional help.

Good luck mate

Peace

 

[sagittalien]

Thank you so much for your compassion and insight! I have been researching tardive dyskinesia and have been worried that that is what this is. I have been thinking of telling my orthodontist and seeing what he thinks. I do not have a doctor and am not sure if I can afford one but hopefully will be able to get it checked out Thank you again! I have been a little confused on whether or not tardive dyskinsia is treatable or if it is incurable..

 

[willy33]

Tardive dyskinesia is pretty unlikely. The only reason I mentioned it, and stand by doing so, is because what you described sounded so reminiscent of TD. And you mentioning in the above post that you are worried it might be TD means I was right only in thinking of how you might have looked.
What I probably should have done was put a big-ass disclaimer on it saying I only mention this TD for interests sake, I SERIOUSLY doubt you have TD. TD is, as far as I know, exclusively the bane of schizophrenics and the like who have been on anti-psychotics for years and years. It's far more likely to be some sort of exacerbated reaction to the MDMA, which as you would know causes people to 'chew their faces off'. Sometimes you can identify a person whose had a good dose by the swollen lips and tongue from excessive movement.

So don't worry mate, I seriously doubt you have TD. I only mentioned it because it was the first thing that sprang to mind!

Peace

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

From what I understand tics are worse under excessive dopaminergic activity and their development might have to do with excess dopamine, seeing as people on dopaminergics seem to have a higher rate of developing tics (anecdotally, many people such as myself have developed or worsened already present tics with dopaminergics). Although I think some of the movement disorders that happen with Parkinson's drugs are better recorded, you might even find tongue thrusting in the literature somewhere.

MDMA users that were on average 3 years absent had about 10% increased dopamine compared to controls, and there is a significant dopaminergic effect to MDMA, mediated by serotonin. So it's conceivable that this could be some form of stimulant induced tic.

I wouldn't suspect tardive dyskinesia because MDMA isn't harmful to dopamine neurons and I don't think you ingested enough meth to do real dopamine damage (caveat TD may not just be about damage either),and as far as methylone and that sort of stuff goes it's not too horrible. I bet you there isn't really damage behind this tic, but rather addiction related neuroplasticity. But a quick test of a neuroleptic would be interesting, it has a possibility of helping. I'd probably take less than a milligram of Risperidone to start with.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Thank you so much for your compassion and insight! I have been researching tardive dyskinesia and have been worried that that is what this is. I have been thinking of telling my orthodontist and seeing what he thinks. I do not have a doctor and am not sure if I can afford one but hopefully will be able to get it checked out Thank you again! I have been a little confused on whether or not tardive dyskinsia is treatable or if it is incurable..

My opinion is that it is a learned habitual behavior based on years of gurn, ring pops, starburst etc. -- and nothing related to neurological damage. Much like some adults will compulsively rub the edge of a blanket like the were a child for self comfort.

I believe it is a pavlovian operantly conditioned response that has become an ingrained habit.


Some abstinent MDMA users report chin quivering and nystagmus from orgasm -- due to the serotonin release -- because that was the response of their bodies for years to MDMA .