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2016 American Presidential Campaign

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Shimmer.Fade, some of these people do seem to be confused, disgruntled libertarians. Any time you hear someone ranting about taxation, thats a sure sign. They have a very third grade like understanding of anarchism. Probably 9/11 "truthers" as well.
 
Shimmer.Fade, some of these people do seem to be confused, disgruntled libertarians. Any time you hear someone ranting about taxation, thats a sure sign. They have a very third grade like understanding of anarchism. Probably 9/11 "truthers" as well.

I disagree with you greatly, and I do not respect you more for trying to put people down. RedLeader and superelephant have presented some very good thoughts that should be considered.
 
Voter turnout is 30% in the states because voting does not enact change anymore. You are given choices that you do not want to choose. Citizens united has seen to it that the average person has next to no say in politics anymore. Think for a second about the fact that most politicians and their staff spend 2x to 3x the amount of time soliciting for donations than actually doing there job. Couple that with lobbying groups that are more powerful than any average person, and you have a recipe for apathy. If the citizens are tired and uneducated they will just rollover and allow the oligarchs to take whatever they want, and leave those citizens quiet.

I have to agree about taxation shimmer. I enjoy a lot of the services, and infrastructure that taxes have provided. I have also used the security net provided by taxing while getting sober, and if those security nets weren't in place I would still be using. I also view tax avoidance as theft. I can see the states getting to a point that a violent revolution is necessary to start being represented. Right now only the wealth are truly represented, and they use diversion tactics to divide us.
 
I disagree with you greatly, and I do not respect you more for trying to put people down. RedLeader and superelephant have presented some very good thoughts that should be considered.

Extremely vain of you to assume I want your respect. You waste far too much time whining about politeness when you could be addressing the subject at hand.
 
Voter turnout is 30% in the states because voting does not enact change anymore. You are given choices that you do not want to choose. Citizens united has seen to it that the average person has next to no say in politics anymore. Think for a second about the fact that most politicians and their staff spend 2x to 3x the amount of time soliciting for donations than actually doing there job. Couple that with lobbying groups that are more powerful than any average person, and you have a recipe for apathy. If the citizens are tired and uneducated they will just rollover and allow the oligarchs to take whatever they want, and leave those citizens quiet.

I have to agree about taxation shimmer. I enjoy a lot of the services, and infrastructure that taxes have provided. I have also used the security net provided by taxing while getting sober, and if those security nets weren't in place I would still be using. I also view tax avoidance as theft. I can see the states getting to a point that a violent revolution is necessary to start being represented. Right now only the wealth are truly represented, and they use diversion tactics to divide us.

Divide and conquer is an old one for sure, and it works if people let it. We need to get the big dog, super educated tax specialists on the government payroll with pay equal to what their private bosses pay them, and let them start hunting. We have the enforcers in place to seize assets and money, we just have to properly identify it and make its possession illegal.

National politics is no more than a show. It is one reason that effort expended in attempting to change it is necessary to not float down the river, but not getting us anywhere. We need to start hitting at the local level, changing how politicians are selected in the first place. We need to have more options at the local level. I don't know if we need many more parties nationally, but we could use a ton of local parties representing specific, local interests who can come together to form coalitions under a common banner. Kinda like what Unions used to be before they were gutted by the right-wingers.
 
Shimmer.Fade, I think you may be confusing the word anarchy, which can have many meanings depending on the context, with the political concept of anarchism. Anarchism is not about chaotic lawlessness. When you're in the jungle and the bigger guy comes over and hits you with a stick, that is not anarchy (as anarchism argues for), it is the simplest form of government. Yes when you watch the news, they might be using "anarchy" as a synonym for "chaos", but they also refer to "torture" by the name of "enhanced interrogation" and to "war" by "peacekeeping mission", so there you go ;).

To the americans: What the hell is going on with those endless lines people stand in to vote? Why isn't everybody and their grandma voting by post? I prefer that option myself, even when going to the voting booth would cost me 5 minutes at most.
 
The voting laws vary by state. Some states require identification cards. The trend has been to make it more difficult, not less. A lot of fuckery going on.
 
Shimmer.Fade, I think you may be confusing the word anarchy, which can have many meanings depending on the context, with the political concept of anarchism. Anarchism is not about chaotic lawlessness. When you're in the jungle and the bigger guy comes over and hits you with a stick, that is not anarchy (as anarchism argues for), it is the simplest form of government. Yes when you watch the news, they might be using "anarchy" as a synonym for "chaos", but they also refer to "torture" by the name of "enhanced interrogation" and to "war" by "peacekeeping mission", so there you go ;).

To the americans: What the hell is going on with those endless lines people stand in to vote? Why isn't everybody and their grandma voting by post? I prefer that option myself, even when going to the voting booth would cost me 5 minutes at most.

Refer to my post in EADD in the Britain in or out thread. I am not at all confused, I just refuse to use false terminology.
 
The "you didn't build that" argument only takes me so far. The government does things terribly bc they have no reason to do things well, and the only accountable person likely will not be there in a few elections. The libertarian philosophy to an extreme like anything is ridiculous. You can say that understanding government must be limited is mean, but you can't say it isn't why the founding fathers set up out country the way they did. They understood the horrors of federal over each, importance of states rights/autonomy, and having a strong military. If socialism existed in America today as its driving economic structure I can garauntee you I would not be typing on this iPhone.
 
Wow I actually have to agree with dropper on something. There is no reason for government to do things well because there is no accountability. Just look at Hillary. She has been involved in many scandals, in fact the email scandal is still going on, and she is running for the highest office in the country. The no accountability also leads to politicians spending most of their time raising money instead of actually working on bills, or debating.

The latest news that has pissed me off is the supreme court is actively working on making laws that make it harder to prosecute politicians for bribery. This is creating the perfect storm for a pay to play government. First they repeal glass steagall which will put a bunch of money quickly into the hands of large corporations through risky investing. Second they pass Citizens United which allows those same large corporations to invest huge sums of shadow money into different campaigns. Lastly they are taking away the last of the rules that stop politicians from accepting the money with any sort of accountability to their constituents. Game Over average citizen...you lose.

A link to the news article here

If McDonnels verdict gets overturned it will set an extremely dangerous precedent.
 
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New here, looking through posts and yours caught my attention

Funny how things change so fast...

Now the highest turn out in US history
Millions of people not tired of hearing SOME names
Rand Paul is out
Chris Christie can go ahead and be left off the list now

I cant believe how early this crap is beginning.

Im going to go out on a limb and predict the worst voter turn out in US history as we are all going to be utterly sick and tired of hearing about these losers.

Well mostly losers. Rand Paul 2016 baby!!!

I love how you left out the fat bastard, human planet, self righteous food addict Chris Christie.

NSFW:
chris-christie-eating.jpg
 
Better example, you get cancer, they remove it, what do they replace it with?

Better health?


Democracy sucks. imposing the majority's will unto people who disagree is aggression.

There are many forms of democracy though. Judging by your response, I'm assuming you have my comment intertwined with mob rule. This isn't really the case. An open form of independent journalism that is free from private conglomerates dictating information is one example of the lifeblood of a healthy democracy. If everything is privatized, there will be mass exclusion, with no public safety nets in place, there will be stark contrasts between the haves and the have-nots, this is a recipe for conflict.

There will be commons, societies would have to exist with actual social contracts. You would join a community that enforced the laws and supported the social programs you want to enjoy. They could designate commons or land could even be donated to the cause if those with businesses in the area believed it would be beneficial. All of this with full transparency. The fact of voluntary interaction will stop corruption. Reputation would be important for both businesses and individuals.

This all sounds great, but who owns these common areas? Federations of small enterprises is something I've advocated for a long time, but in my opinion, there have to be areas of industry, services and land that belong to everyone, with some sort of regulation and rule of law. Otherwise, people fall by the waste-side. If you're not a premier member of a certain community, if you don't buy the gold package, so to speak, what happens to you? What if said community rejects you? I'm just pointing out that some collectivism is necessary, we simply cannot run a large scale society based on absolute individualism. We're already walling ourselves off due to technological advances, I can run my own banking system, hire private transportation for pretty cheap, etc. But These advances in individualistic technology have already come at a cost to society as a whole, and has given way to vanity over community. These are my concerns.

Your international business professor sounds like a smart person. %)

We all feel the same about people with ideas in which we agree, don't we? ;)

Where has any of this been done in practice?

I know it's on the opposite side of the aisle for you, but please humor me. What do you make of the Mondragon Corporation in Spain? Or the Marinaleda community, also in Spain. Marinaleda has a collectivist economy, yes, and does have what closely resembles a state, but their state is more of an open forum than an apparatus separate from the governed, effectively allowing the people to rule themselves in a true sense. There ARE successful movements towards anarchist micro-societies, which may serve as an example for what a larger society of the sort may look like. But at least something's being done, where are the anarcho-capitalist societies?
 
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Firstly to superelephant:
Do you think Somalia is a place where true anarchists can make a home? I find it offensive that you would use such an example. If you don't think there is a place you can go to to not pay taxes and not receive benefits then you are very naive, or don't have the creativity to find such an area. They even exist within nation-states. /aside
Expert level deflection. Now I really wanna know though, where are you talking about? ;)


Now to the meat:

The majority imposing their will on the minority. Why the fuck do you think there are human rights? Why do we here in Germany uphold the preservation of human dignity above all else? Talk about a straw man. Just because the majority agree to do something doesn't mean the rights of the minority are worthless, and not to be protected and respected.
Because stealing (tax) from people is not violating their human rights. You might want to let police know not to violate human rights, I'm assuming they did not get this memo because the do it all the fucking time. http://thefreethoughtproject.com/we-warrant-cops-enter-home-window-rip-infant-mothers-arms/
I can post stories and video like this all day

I am of the opinion that when a minority goes against the majority by having a certain way of being which causes quantifiable harm within their society then they need to change their behavior, or find a new home where they can be who they want to be. We should not allow some dude to improperly sacrifice a lamb in the middle of Time's Square. We should also not allow people to be stoned in public even if some minorities subscribe to this belief. We also have a moral imperative to fight against unjust laws passed by the majority. How else should it be, what is your opinion?
I don't think that people should sacrifice animals in public areas either. Any communities I choose to live in will not allow animal sacrifices in public, I am willing to actually sign a contract with that written on it. Murdering people in public will be illegal too. In voluntary societies you would live away from those that would agree to what you would consider unjust laws.

Of course there are instances where the majority has been successful in oppressing minorities through unfair laws, and there always will be (Drug war, anti-choice, creationists, anti-LGBT, etc, etc...). Have you looked around recently? People are fighting successfully for change in these areas. The simple fact that these people can fight for change and not be killed because of it is a NEW, WONDROUS, and BEAUTIFUL development. People used to simple be killed or locked away forever for attempting these things! Please don't let all the negatives take away from what we have achieved!

Just because some backwards ass areas have chosen to be oppressive assholes will not stand in the way of real change (unless we allow them a libertarian style of government). Sometimes it takes just that oppression for the good people to get fed up, and change the system from within as it was designed to be done. Such is the paradox of the human.

You are living in a dream world if you think any sort of libertarian system can ever guarantee this same amount of freedom for all on a large scale. Not sure if you have been to some of the worst parts of the US, but I thank whatever there may be that our CENTRAL government is able to PROTECT these poor souls to the best of their ability. In these areas the influence of the CENTRAL government has been intentionally eroded so that those locally in power can do whatever the fuck they want, including OPPRESSING minorities they don't like. Often these locals like to call themselves libertarians.

Nothing is perfect, and nothing will ever be perfect. The frame provided us by the Founding Fathers, who built upon the age of Enlightenment, who built upon the Magna Carta, who built upon Roman representation, who built upon Greek democracy, who built upon ideas from the Egyptians, Persians, Assyrians, and Babylonians.

What the fuck can you do better that they haven't already tried? What do you see as the end point of Libertarianism? Do you believe in the inherent good in man? I don't.
I wish I had more time. you say you don't believe in the inherent good in man, but then you talk about making a monopolized authority, and claim that it will not be abused by man enough to tip it in the direction of being a net negative for the people. It will be abused, it always has been and always will be. It will always be abused enough to tip the scales in favor of the ruling class. Always. Without fail. You are dreaming if you think what's currently experienced is any amount of freedom at all.



Again, on to the tax issue:

Sorry, if I didn't read some of your more important points RedLeader. The articles you pointed me to are trying to redefine Anarchy as something it isn't. I will never define the ideas brought forth in those articles as Anarchy. That is libertarian trip-trap which will leave us with more misery than ever before. Saying that, I view the libertarian trip-trap as preferable to anarchy.

The second article is more of the same. Attempting to define something which isn't close to what Anarchy is as Anarchy. I disagree with these attempts to change the meaning of a very old word and the ideas it conveys. Just call yourself a libertarian and be done with it.

When you say it is wrong that people should be forced to move for their political beliefs I agree with to to an extent. There are some beliefs which are incompatible with our culture (e.g. Sharia Law).

Whether you pay your taxes or not has nothing to do with your political belief. If you don't pay them you are a criminal because you are screwing everyone else around you who does participate. You don't have to like the taxes, and you can try your best politically to get rid of them, and the majority of people will laugh in your face. Usually, the best strategy is to push for more transparency, and more control of where the taxes go. The US has had decades to vote in people who would represent them and put their tax money to good work, but they didn't. Voting rates are something like ~30% on average. Make of that what you will.

Even if you try your hardest to avoid OUR infrastructure and services provided by OUR taxes you will not be able to within the US. Your very existence could most likely be owed to what OUR taxes have built. When you don't contribute, but use OUR shit without OUR permission that IS theft.

I agree there is much reform to be done with regards to our tax systems, and the government needs to start paying the elite tax pros big bucks to hunt down OUR money. Not an IRS for the common man (analogy:FBI), but a semi-global IRS (analogy:CIA) to beat the super wealthy at their own game. Public enemy #1 are tax evading oligarchs and their enablers.

Anyhow, for anyone who doesn't want to pay their taxes to the USA in order to enjoy the quality of life they have there, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE BEFORE WE THROW YOU IN PRISON. You will always have your right to your opinion that being taxed is shitty, and you will always have your right to blah blah about it all you want. I will fight for your right to do so within OUR system.

This situation is black and white, and anyone trying to hide not paying taxes behind a political philosophy is more than likely going to end up far worse off than if they had simply paid their taxes, because at that point they ARE a thief. They are stealing from me, my parents, my brothers and sisters, my cousins, my colleagues, and all the other people paying their taxes in an attempt to create a world they want to be part of. I love the fact that my parents are able to retire soon, and enjoy the country around them they have worked their asses off to build.

I can't stand asshole libertarians trying to burn everything down in some fanciful fit of retarded pride.

If you don't want to pay taxes then please shut off all of your utilities, stop driving anywhere on the roads the taxpayers pay for, stop buying anything produced on the infrastructure paid for by our taxes, don't you dare call emergency services when you have an emergency because you have not subsidized them, let alone paid taxes for the infrastructure they use to both get your communication and to get to you. School your children at home, and defend yourself from any people meaning to do you harm, etc, etc, etc...

Basically, why the fuck do you want to be part of the USA at that point?
Incredible. Who are you calling we? Speak for yourself. I'm forced to use the shitty infrastructure the government has a monopoly on providing. The government borrowed on my existence to supply all that shit, I never had any say in the matter. The problem is not how the stolen money is spent, It's that the violation of consent is not okay. To justify the violation of consent in the form of compulsory payments to government is to justify rape, assault and battery, stalking, fraud, and all other forms of initiatory coercion. Because the only thing that separates these things from love making, a boxing match, a relationship, and sharing is consent. It is what separates virtue from depravity. It doesn't matter how much you want something, how beneficial you think it will be for them and others, or how much you disagree with their refusal to give consent, coercion is inexcusable and unconscionable. Period.

I'll be back.
 
Gosh damn, poor people are so annoying.

All I hear is "the gubermint this" "the gubermint that".

Do you people realize that even the poorest among ye have access to riches and luxuries far beyond anything the richest kings of 500 hundred years ago could never even dream of having. Yet you babies still moan and complain. "This Iphone 1 isn't good enough, I want the brand new Iphone 6" Or "my DSL isn't fast enough I want Gigabit internet like Google fiber"

All I hear is spoilt rotten babies crying because they didn't get the deluxe set. Boo hoo cry me a damn river.

You have access to clean running water, food, electricity, internet, Iphones, automobiles, air planes, amusement parks, and I can go on and on and on. Get over yourselves. Be thankful for what you've got and stop envying what you don't have. No one in this world owes you a damn thing. So get off your damn entitlement horse and show some fucking gratitude.



Incredible. Who are you calling we? Speak for yourself. I'm forced to use the shitty infrastructure the government has a monopoly on providing. The government borrowed on my existence to supply all that shit, I never had any say in the matter. The problem is not how the stolen money is spent, It's that the violation of consent is not okay. To justify the violation of consent in the form of compulsory payments to government is to justify rape, assault and battery, stalking, fraud, and all other forms of initiatory coercion. Because the only thing that separates these things from love making, a boxing match, a relationship, and sharing is consent. It is what separates virtue from depravity. It doesn't matter how much you want something, how beneficial you think it will be for them and others, or how much you disagree with their refusal to give consent, coercion is inexcusable and unconscionable. Period.

I'll be back.
LOL OH please. You're probably reclining in a lazyboy, eating a damn hot pocket and flipping through channels on your 56 inch flat screen while your typing this on your mac book pro.

But by all means, you're so totally raped, violated and disenfranchised.

Boo hoo

Grow up kid.
 
Gosh damn, poor people are so annoying.

All I hear is "the gubermint this" "the gubermint that".

Do you people realize that even the poorest among ye have access to riches and luxuries far beyond anything the richest kings of 500 hundred years ago could never even dream of having. Yet you babies still moan and complain. "This Iphone 1 isn't good enough, I want the brand new Iphone 6" Or "my DSL isn't fast enough I want Gigabit internet like Google fiber"

All I hear is spoilt rotten babies crying because they didn't get the deluxe set. Boo hoo cry me a damn river.

You have access to clean running water, food, electricity, internet, Iphones, automobiles, air planes, amusement parks, and I can go on and on and on. Get over yourselves. Be thankful for what you've got and stop envying what you don't have. No one in this world owes you a damn thing. So get off your damn entitlement horse and show some fucking gratitude.

Come drink the water in Flint ;)

Also there are a lot of people who have very little food, are facing electricity shut offs, etc.

But I think the main argument against the rich is their seat in power over society. Most of us can't afford our own senator, you see.
 
Come drink the water in Flint ;)

Also there are a lot of people who have very little food, are facing electricity shut offs, etc.

But I think the main argument against the rich is their seat in power over society. Most of us can't afford our own senator, you see.

As bad as it may seem in flint, they're still going to have a longer life span than the people of 500 years ago. Hell most of them are gonna be cashing in on lawsuit money any day now, so they gonna be "high on the hog". Furthermore, I was just watching a special about Flint on PBS and there was a family on it that had nicer shit than I do, and they didn't seem to be too afflicted either. If you think the residents of flint have it bad go take a walk in Somalia, then come here and tell me you wouldn't be begging to drink the water in flint, I know I would. Plus, the media has really cashed in on this flint situation too, we all know how they blow shit out of proportion, what makes you think this 'crisis' is any different?


But you can afford to cry and complain via the internet Mr. seinior Moderator? awwwweee
 
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