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2016 American Presidential Campaign

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crazy... here, until you reach more than 11,000EUR yearly income (not counting 13th and 14th month income I believe), you really don't pay income tax, only social security. I thougt that income tax must be lower in the USA...

and if you are single without children, that money is enough to live a good life.
 
Clinton is toast. New poll released today shows her only leading Trump by 3 points nationally. Now that Cruz and Kasich have announced they're teaming up to beat Trump, Clinton will soon be seen as unelectable by the DNC. She polls even worse against those two.
 
In the states we pay quite a bit for very little when you are working poor or middle class. It is such a defunct system that in quite a few states you come out ahead of someone working a minimum wage job just being on welfare, having section 8 housing, and getting food stamps. It is sad. Very very sad. Well I guess I should be happy that my hard work has enriched those that are already rich. What needs to be fixed is capital gains tax. That is so broken.
 
You haven't offered an alternative. We can condemn taxes all we want, but who is going to act as the fire department? The police? Who's going to build public roadways? Who's going to form the military?

At my old job I worked 40 hours per week, and made on average ~290 before taxes. After taxes I was looking at about 140. Was I happy about that? no. Do I see the necessity, obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be holding contrasting views.

Call it theft, call it rape call it extortion. It's a necessary evil as there MUST be a commons.

If You're onboard with that concept and are more focused on distribution reform, that's something I can get on board with.
I don't know, mutual aid benefit society achieved via agorism?

In every experience I've had with the fire department, they have not been timely. Cops are terrible, they are already being replaced by private police and apps. Muh roads! because flat surfaces from point a to b require bureaucracy. Finland has a great deal of private roads, by the way. Oh come on, If anything, the existence of a monopoly on the use of force is a liability in the event of a foreign invasion because the invaders would only need to conquer and issue orders to the ruling class of said monopoly in order to be able to take control of the territory, the people and their personal property. Why is it, that you can accept a gluttonous government that's borrowed us into 19 trillion in debt, devalued the shit out of our currency, is a fucking militaristic empire, and is utterly incompetent in absolutely everything it aspires to be, becoming what it is suppose to prevent, but you demand absolutely perfection from the idea of freedom?

https://www.facebook.com/Detroit-Threat-Management-Center-214976369118/

http://truthvoice.com/2016/02/the-smartphone-app-cops-dont-want-you-to-have/


What is this shit about Sanders considering banning cigarettes? even after the death of Eric Garner? Fucking really??
 
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Boo hoo. That's life. Taxation is still extortion. Personal circumstances do not change that.

No, it isn't. That's how civilized society has run since forever. Look at the gilded age and its atrocities to see what happens when you let these libertarian psychos run society.
 
I am so fed up with bipartisan politics. People standing in the middle don't even have a candidate, and third party candidates are just wasted votes. Both the GOP and Democratic Party are just very powerful clubs that are constantly pulling strings...but the system has been setup to keep people with radical ideas out. Think about what has happened to bernie sanders and trump. The established parties are actively working to undermine their campaigns....I have to say this, especially with trump. If Trump gets all the delegates he needs, and gets the popular vote, if they force a white knight through I bet there would be some serious dissidence among their party. Something else that pisses me off is all the questions from hillary clinton's followers, and pundits asking when Bernie Sanders is going to throw in the towel and agree to support her. That is extremely annoying and I must say if I were Bernie Sanders I would be offended. What makes her think that he wants to support her? Obviously you can be in the same political party and not care for the policies and track history of another party member. You can also certainly just look at all the scandals she has been involved in, and as a conscientious citizen of this country realize that if she had more power you can expect more of the same . If she gets nominated so many democrats will just not be voting because they don't want to support her. I for one will not vote for her. I would love to see a woman president...just not that one.

Something else that has got me pissing steam is the fact that most politicians spend the majority of their time and resources calling donors and soliciting money. The fact that they are doing that way more than they are actually working is appalling.

Sorry about the rant.
 
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I am so fed up with bipartisan politics. People standing in the middle don't even have a candidate, and third party candidates are just wasted votes. Both the GOP and Democratic Party are just very powerful clubs that are constantly pulling strings...but the system has been setup to keep people with radical ideas out. Think about what has happened to bernie sanders and trump. The established parties are actively working to undermine their campaigns....I have to say this, especially with trump. If Trump gets all the delegates he needs, and gets the popular vote, if they force a white knight through I bet there would be some serious dissidence among their party. Something else that pisses me off is all the questions from hillary clinton's followers, and pundits asking when Bernie Sanders is going to throw in the towel and agree to support her. That is extremely annoying and I must say if I were Bernie Sanders I would be offended. What makes her think that he wants to support her? Obviously you can be in the same political party and not care for the policies and track history of another party member. You can also certainly just look at all the scandals she has been involved in, and as a conscientious citizen of this country realize that if she had more power you can expect more of the same . If she gets nominated so many democrats will just not be voting because they don't want to support her. I for one will not vote for her. I would love to see a woman president...just not that one.

Something else that has got me pissing steam is the fact that most politicians spend the majority of their time and resources calling donors and soliciting money. The fact that they are doing that way more than they are actually working is appalling.

Sorry about the rant.

With the email issue still hanging over Clinton I've wondered about the Dems dropping in a white knight (Joe Biden) in the long shot she gets indicted and what would happen if they leap frogged over Sanders. Just imagine all the anti-establishments protesters from both sides. If I do end up voting it will be for anyone but Hillary.
 
With the email issue still hanging over Clinton I've wondered about the Dems dropping in a white knight (Joe Biden) in the long shot she gets indicted and what would happen if they leap frogged over Sanders. Just imagine all the anti-establishments protesters from both sides. If I do end up voting it will be for anyone but Hillary.

That's an interesting question. If she gets indicted at all they'd probably wait until the middle of the general. I doubt biden would run since his son died and he has said he has no interest. They'd probably pick some other corrupt thirdway toady. It would blow my mind if the republicans did the same because of a contested convention. It would finally show the people that the choice isn't theres at all.
 
No, it isn't. That's how civilized society has run since forever. Look at the gilded age and its atrocities to see what happens when you let these libertarian psychos run society.

Taxes are not voluntary, if you do not pay them the government will arrest you and throw you in a cage, resist and you will be murdered. All this for trying to keep your own money. That is extortion. It is a complete oxymoron to suggest that civilized society can only exist if a group of people have authority to confiscate property from every citizen. Confiscating property without consent is not civilized.

If I went back to the gilded age, I would tell the people I met that taxation is extortion. Then they would say "No, it isn't. That's how civilized society has run since forever". Yeah, people have been stealing from each other for along time, that does not mean it's justified.
 
What's flawed is this is entirely a backwards way to look at it. The problem is minimum wage hasn't been increasing with inflation as it used to in the past, the top just keeps the entire pie while the little guys fight over the crumbs. Of course they're only interested in money so prices will go up which is why they need to be regulated. If businesses are people then they're sociopaths. We shouldn't let sociopaths run around freely.

Strawman. All that "minimum wage not increasing with inflation" shows is that inflation increasing is not a sufficient condition for MW increasing. That is logically isolated from the point I brought up.

You haven't offered an alternative. We can condemn taxes all we want, but who is going to act as the fire department? The police? Who's going to build public roadways? Who's going to form the military?

What do you replace taxes with? If I put out a fire in your backyard, are you going to ask me what I am going to replace it with?

I mean, there's extensive anarchist literature out there about who assumes the roles of the fire department, the police and so on in the absence of a central State and how it is all funded. I could suggest you some titles to check out. But I don't have time to write up a tl;dr on that stuff right now. Similar ideas come up when it comes to providing aid for the poor. Robust systems are there with the option even to (on a more local level) redistribute wealth. They are just designed to be immune from centralised governmental corruption and mismanagement.

As for the roads, serious question...when is the last time the US Government built a road? They've all been built already. The only roads that get built these days are by private industry.

No, it isn't. That's how civilized society has run since forever. Look at the gilded age and its atrocities to see what happens when you let these libertarian psychos run society.

(I really want to know what the race and back round of all these bootstrappy objectivist on bluelight is. What kind of family do they come from, Who paid for their college etc. these--people--ranting about poor people "stealing" almost always come from privilege)

Taxes first arose as a way to pay for a ruling class and its army. Those taxes did not pay for benefits of the ordinary masses. The earliest form of taxes was very true to the idea of the rich stealing from the poor. The Panama Papers leak actually reinforces this idea. If the rich can dodge their own taxes, then the rest has to pay the compensation. Again, the rich stealing from the poor.

Tax avoiders are acting as scapegoats for a government (or shall we call it a "modern ruling class," because that it is...) that is stealing tons of money from its citizens and largely spending it on imperial wars, foreign aid, endless intentional bureaucracy and other stuff that the people no longer want. Debates over social welfare and such are the government using a divide-and-conquer strategy to distract the people from instead seeing it for what it is - a modern ruling class. The dollar amounts of the "poor stealing from the rich" are laughable compared to the "rich stealing from the poor."

This idea of taxation being a socially motivated and beneficial transfer of wealth is clever spin that is masking the transfer of wealth from a productive society to the State. The State seizing so much money from the economy and then only putting a tiny fraction of it back is the reason why the lower class so often bottoms out with homelessness, poverty, unemployment and so on. There is plenty of money to take care of the disadvantaged in our society and ways to do so in a caring fashion were the State not in charge. The State merely creates departments that thrive and depend upon the problems they are supposed to be fixing. We see the obviousness of this in the DEA, but are for some reason blind to the other blatant cases of it. This is how they rule. Bernie Sanders cannot take this down because his views on taxation conflict with the true nature of the problem. He does not know how to conceptualize the problems he think he can solve. You'd need a lot of angry people with masks, guns and grenades to really fix anything...

So whether taxation is theft or not philosophically speaking, it's something that is going to become horribly corrupted in such a large and powerful centralised ruling class. Do I think Bernie believes what he says? Absolutely. Do I think it's possible for him to do any of this stuff without the unstoppable force of Washington greed doing whatever it takes to stop him? Absolutely not. The genie is out of the bottle.

Incidentally, I'm poor and a member of the working class. My political beliefs come through reading. My views on taxes are derived from my views about the existence of government at all. They do not come out of greed. Tax breaks and redistributed wealth would make my life a lot better probably. Call me an idealist, sure, but we do dream big around here...right?
 
Strawman. All that "minimum wage not increasing with inflation" shows is that inflation increasing is not a sufficient condition for MW increasing. That is logically isolated from the point I brought up.

Do you think the advent of large amounts of easy credit had anything to do with wage suppression? I think your outlook here is far too simple. The attempt to isolate inflation as the single driving force for wage increase is just flat out wrong. It SHOULD play a large role, but when prices go up, and the de-unionized workers just go out and get another minimum wage job something is broken. Idiot Americans have stopped fighting for their wages, and our government has allowed de-facto slave labor in the form of illegals. Etc, etc, etc...this problem is fucking complex, don't try to oversimplify please.


What do you replace taxes with? If I put out a fire in your backyard, are you going to ask me what I am going to replace it with?

I mean, there's extensive anarchist literature out there about who assumes the roles of the fire department, the police and so on in the absence of a central State and how it is all funded. I could suggest you some titles to check out. But I don't have time to write up a tl;dr on that stuff right now. Similar ideas come up when it comes to providing aid for the poor. Robust systems are there with the option even to (on a more local level) redistribute wealth. They are just designed to be immune from centralised governmental corruption and mismanagement.

As for the roads, serious question...when is the last time the US Government built a road? They've all been built already. The only roads that get built these days are by private industry.

What are you getting at? That some anarchist super state will be able to guarantee my human rights?

Anarchy in itself is a retarded word, and should never be viewed as something positive. I can get behind the idea of decentralization, but history has shown over, and over, and over, and over again that taken to extremes this ends in war.

Let's do a little thought experiment, a really simple one based on human nature.

We start out as roving bands doing what we want without having to listen to anyone except those stronger than us. My band encounters another band, who for some reason are quite violent and scary. Luckily, we caught them by surprise and managed to finish them off without too many casualties.

After this, my anarchic side puts their brightest, strongest people forward to lead in times of trouble, and they give us coherence, strength, and protection of the team. My previously anarchic side kills your more anarchic, less organized side because we have faced trouble, and don't want to deal with an unknown, unnecessary threat. We take in your survivors and add them to our team. Our team is even bigger, and we fear there may be teams out there even bigger than us. So we organize ourselves to protect what we have. At some point the teams start getting so big, that devolving into anarchic sects simply creates units of chaos which must be eliminated for the greater good, and so on, and so forth. Where does this get us?

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I get the world is rife with corruption, but have you stopped to think how, at the very least, millions and millions of peoples' human rights are right now being protected by our corrupt governments. There is some nasty redistribution going on right now, but so far my human rights are intact. I understand peoples' rights in the US are being trampled right and left, and that your leadership no longer values its constituencies.

Other than anarchy (which would be crushed), how do you propose we change things? I once believed in education. I now believe not everyone can be educated (what a crushing realization IMO). I think the majority can be well educated, and it is their moral imperative to guide those who cannot be educated towards decisions that are in their own best interest. Gets fucking slippery, but what else can we do?

Purity of objective information is something that has always been abused to the point that those who need guidance have no clue where to get it anymore, and half the time they are being led by someone who is exploiting them.

How do we break that cycle? Education? No clue on my side other than putting into place checks and balances which can to the best of their construction protect those who cannot protect themselves.

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On to your TAXES rant.

Hey man, if you want to be a US citizen pay your fucking tax, and be proud of it. If you don't want to pay your tax there are a ton of countries out there where you don't have to pay tax. Just don't expect access to our infrastructure and technology when you find yourself in need.

Why is someone like you still an American citizen? The world is a big place, and there are quite a few areas where it would be easy to practice the type of government you preach. I just doubt many people will go along with you. These places are infamous for lacking any sort of human rights protection, and the amount of people in these places that are simply killed and forgotten is quite shocking.

Things that happen in these areas....that happy, successful family down the street is just gone one day because someone bigger and stronger wanted what they had. The little girl was so beautiful, probably fetched a pretty penny. At least while they were there they had freedom from taxation!
 
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What do you replace taxes with? If I put out a fire in your backyard, are you going to ask me what I am going to replace it with?

I don't think I understand the question.

Are you personally going to put out my fire? What if I live in a high-rise?

I mean, there's extensive anarchist literature out there about who assumes the roles of the fire department, the police and so on in the absence of a central State and how it is all funded. I could suggest you some titles to check out. But I don't have time to write up a tl;dr on that stuff right now. Similar ideas come up when it comes to providing aid for the poor. Robust systems are there with the option even to (on a more local level) redistribute wealth. They are just designed to be immune from centralised governmental corruption and mismanagement.

Hey, I'm not opposed to decentralization, wealth redistribution, or erosion of the state. These things are actually paramount in my own political beliefs. The thing that hangs me up is doings so without a commons, without democracy. Is all of this really going to be done in a privatized, individualized form? What's to stop a profit-driven anarchistic society from becoming just as corrupt as a state?

With all due respect, anarcho-capitalism sounds like the very essence of the crumbling of society and a regression back to whoever has the biggest stick.

No need to reference me to Hayek or Mises literature, my international business professor was a bit of a fanboy.

As for the roads, serious question...when is the last time the US Government built a road? They've all been built already. The only roads that get built these days are by private industry.

Heh, I take it you don't live in Michigan. The Federal government foots the bill for maintaining federal roads year round. State and municipal transport infrastructure the same. There's more to roadway transportation than just building new roads.

But the question still begs, how is there any order without a commonly owned infrastructure in an anarchistic society?
 
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Let's do a little thought experiment, a really simple one based on human nature.

We start out as roving bands doing what we want without having to listen to anyone except those stronger than us. My band encounters another band, who for some reason are quite violent and scary. Luckily, we caught them by surprise and managed to finish them off without too many casualties.

After this, my anarchic side puts their brightest, strongest people forward to lead in times of trouble, and they give us coherence, strength, and protection of the team. My previously anarchic side kills your more anarchic, less organized side because we have faced trouble, and don't want to deal with an unknown, unnecessary threat. We take in your survivors and add them to our team. Our team is even bigger, and we fear there may be teams out there even bigger than us. So we organize ourselves to protect what we have. At some point the teams start getting so big, that devolving into anarchic sects simply creates units of chaos which must be eliminated for the greater good, and so on, and so forth. Where does this get us?

Have you read the Parable of the Tribes? (Long but good read. The underlined part is the most relevant)

The Dynamics of History

THE COMMONSENSE THEORY of social evolution offers a benign and reasonable view of human affairs. According to this image, people are continually hunting for ways to better their condition. (One immediately recognizes the Economic Man of capitalist theory.) The alternatives are readily generated by this pursuit of improvement. The longer the hunt goes on, the more alternatives are discovered. And, since man is an inventive as well as exploratory creature, what is discovered in the world is increasingly supplemented by what people have created. With the passage of time, therefore, more and more cultural alternatives become available for all aspects of our cultural business – how and what to produce, how to govern ourselves, what to think, how to travel, play, make music, and so on. The process of selection is done by people. The criterion for selection? People choose what they believe will best meet their needs, replacing old cultural forms when new and better ones become available. Again, the resonance with economic theory is striking: social evolution is the product of choices made in the marketplace of cultural possibilities.

The commonsense theory of selection by human choice leads one to expect a continuous betterment of the human condition. For a story of improvement, however, the history of civilization makes rather dismal reading, and as the culmination of ten thousand years of progress the twentieth century is deeply disappointing. It is not simply that history is strewn with regrettable events, with accidents leaving carnage and wreckage on the thoroughfare bound for Progress. The road itself has been treacherous. If the stupendous historical transformation in the structure of human life has been the result of people choosing what they believe will best satisfy their needs, why have not human needs been better met?

The idea of history as progress is itself of relatively recent origin. And those who endorse that idea are usually looking only at relatively recent history for support. But even the advances of modern civilization have their nightmarish side, escalating as they have the destructive capacities of civilization. Looking at history as a whole, it is far from clear that the main "advances" of civilized societies have consistently improved the human condition. In earlier eras of history, the cutting edge of civilization’s progress led from freedom into bondage for the common person. The great monuments of the ancient world were built with the sweat of slaves whose civilized ancestors had not known the oppressor’s whip. After four thousand years the pyramids of Egypt can still stand as an emblem of the problem of civilization, that its achievements are more reliably impressive than benign.

The idea of progress has relied in another way on the lack of a clear vision of the distant past. The life of primitive peoples is widely assumed to have been nasty, brutish, and short. The step from the "savage" state to the "civilized" is consequently assumed to have been straight up. Increasingly, however, as anthropologists have taken a closer and less ethnocentric look at hunter-gatherers, the evidence has shown that primitive life was not so bad.

Among hunting-and-gathering bands, the burden of labor is comparatively small, leaving more time than most civilized people have known for play, music, dance. The politics of these small societies are largely free of coercion and inequality. Relationships are close and enduring. Primitives enjoy a wholeness and freedom in their lives which many civilized peoples may well envy. This new view of our starting point demands a new look at the entire course.

The Struggle For Power

In his classic, Leviathan, Thomas Hobbes describes what he calls "the state of nature" as an anarchic situation in which all are compelled, for their very survival, to engage in a ceaseless struggle for power. About this "war of all against all," two important points should be made: that Hobbes’s vision of the dangers of anarchy captured an important dimension of the human condition, and that to call that condition "the state of nature" is a remarkable misnomer.

In nature, all pursue survival for themselves and their kind. But they can do so only within biologically evolved limits. The living order of nature, though it has no ruler, is not in the least anarchic. Each pursues a kind of self- interest, each is a law unto itself, but the separate interests and laws have been formed over aeons of selection to form part of a tightly ordered harmonious system. Although the state of nature involves struggle, the struggle is part of an order. Each component of the living system has a defined place out of which no ambition can extricate it. Hunting- gathering societies were to a very great extent likewise contained by natural limits.

With the rise of civilization, the limits fall away. The natural self-interest and pursuit of survival remain, but they are no longer governed by any order. The new civilized forms of society, with more complex social and political structures, created the new possibility of indefinite social expansion: more and more people organized over more and more territory. All other forms of life had always found inevitable limits placed upon their growth by scarcity and consequent death. But civilized society was developing the unprecedented capacity for unlimited growth as an entity. (The limitlessness of this possibility does not emerge fully at the outset, but rather becomes progressively more realized over the course of history as people invent methods of transportation, communication, and governance which extend the range within which coherence and order can be maintained.) Out of the living order there emerged a living entity with no defined place.

In a finite world, societies all seeking to escape death- dealing scarcity through expansion will inevitably come to confront each other. Civilized societies, therefore, though lacking inherent limitations to their growth, do encounter new external limits – in the form of one another. Because human beings (like other living creatures) have "excess reproductive capacity," meaning that human numbers tend to increase indefinitely unless a high proportion of the population dies prematurely, each civilized society faces an unpleasant choice. If an expanding society willingly stops where its growth would infringe upon neighboring societies, it allows death to catch up and overtake its population. If it goes beyond those limits, it commits aggression. With no natural order or overarching power to prevent it, some will surely choose to take what belongs to their neighbors rather than to accept the limits that are compulsory for every other form of life.

In such circumstances, a Hobbesian struggle for power among societies becomes inevitable. We see that what is freedom from the point of view of each single unit is anarchy in an ungoverned system of those units. A freedom unknown in nature is cruelly transmuted into an equally unnatural state of anarchy, with its terrors and its destructive war of all against all.

As people stepped across the threshold into civilization, they inadvertently stumbled into a chaos that had never before existed. The relations among societies were uncontrolled and virtually uncontrollable. Such an ungoverned system imposes unchosen necessities: civilized people were compelled to enter a struggle for power.

The meaning of "power," a concept central to this entire work, needs to be explored. Power may be defined as the capacity to achieve one’s will against the will of another. The exercise of power thus infringes upon the exercise of choice, for to be the object of another’s power is to have his choice substituted for one’s own. Power becomes important where two actors (or more) would choose the same thing but cannot have it; power becomes important when the obstacles to the achievement of one’s will come from the will of others. Thus as the expanding capacities of human societies created an overlap in the range of their grasp and desire, the intersocietal struggle for power arose.

But the new unavoidability of this struggle is but the first and smaller step in the transmutation of the apparent freedom of civilized peoples into bondage to the necessities of power.

The Parable

The new human freedom made striving for expansion and power possible. Such freedom, when multiplied, creates anarchy. The anarchy among civilized societies meant that the play of power in the system was uncontrollable. In an anarchic situation like that, no one can choose that the struggle for power shall cease. But there is one more element in the picture: no one is free to choose peace, but anyone can impose upon all the necessity for power. This is the lesson of the parable of the tribes.

Imagine a group of tribes living within reach of one another. If all choose the way of peace, then all may live in peace. But what if all but one choose peace, and that one is ambitious for expansion and conquest? What can happen to the others when confronted by an ambitious and potent neighbor? Perhaps one tribe is attacked and defeated, its people destroyed and its lands seized for the use of the victors. Another is defeated, but this one is not exterminated; rather, it is subjugated and transformed to serve the conqueror. A third seeking to avoid such disaster flees from the area into some inaccessible (and undesirable) place, and its former homeland becomes part of the growing empire of the power-seeking tribe. Let us suppose that others observing these developments decide to defend themselves in order to preserve themselves and their autonomy. But the irony is that successful defense against a power-maximizing aggressor requires a society to become more like the society that threatens it. Power can be stopped only by power, and if the threatening society has discovered ways to magnify its power through innovations in organization or technology (or whatever), the defensive society will have to transform itself into something more like its foe in order to resist the external force.

I have just outlined four possible outcomes for the threatened tribes: destruction, absorption and transformation, withdrawal, and imitation. In every one of these outcomes the ways of power are spread throughout the system. This is the parable of the tribes.

This parable is a theory of social evolution which shows that power is like a contaminant, a disease, which once introduced will gradually yet inexorably become universal in the system of competing societies. More important than the inevitability of the struggle for power is the profound social evolutionary consequence of that struggle once it begins. A selection for power among civilized societies is inevitable. If anarchy assured that power among civilized societies could not be governed, the selection for power signified that increasingly the ways of power would govern the destiny of mankind. This is the new evolutionary principle that came into the world with civilization. Here is the social evolutionary black hole that we have sought as an explanation of the harmful warp in the course of civilization’s development.


Power Versus Choice In Social Evolution

The parable of the tribes provides a perspective on social evolution quite different from the commonsense view. Even without rewriting history, the parable of the tribes puts it in a wholly new light.

The Question of Choice The commonsense model emphasizes the role of free human choice: social evolution is directed by a benign process of selection in which people choose what they want from among the cultural alternatives. Viewed from the perspective of the parable of the tribes, human destiny is no longer governed by free human choice. At the heart of the loss of choice is not that some could impose their will upon others, but that the whole reign of power came unbidden by anyone to dominate human life. People inadvertently stumbled into a struggle for power beyond their ability to avoid or to stop. This struggle generated a selective process, also beyond human control, which molded change in a direction that was inevitable – toward power maximization in human societies.

The parable of the tribes is not, however, rigidly deterministic. It does not maintain that specific events are preordained. Even major developments can arise owing to relatively fortuitous circumstances. The history of a continent may be altered by a burst of human creativity, a people’s destiny may hinge on the wisdom or folly of its leaders, the texture of a culture may bear for ages the imprint of some charismatic visionary. What the parable of the tribes does assert is that once mankind had begun the process of developing civilization, the overall direction of its evolution was inevitable. This is suggested by the way civilization developed in those regions of the Old and New worlds where it arose more or less independently: their courses show significant parallels. People can act freely and intelligently, but uncontrolled circumstances determine the situation in which they must act and mold the evolution of their systems

Thus we find that the major trends in the transformation of human society have had the effect of increasing competitive power. This effect in itself does not prove that the selection for power has been the cause of these trends, especially since many of these transformations also increase a society’s ability to achieve goals outside the realm of competition. A major purpose of my work is to make compelling the case for the contention of the parable of the tribes that the reign of power has been a significant factor in dictating the principal trends of the social evolution.

History-makers People do make history. Historical "forces" can be expressed only in the doings of flesh-and- blood human beings. In the commonsense view of social evolution, history is shaped by "the people" in general. To recognize that some people play a large historical role and that others play almost no role at all still falls within the realm of common sense. This inequality does not challenge the essentially democratic view of history as governed by human choices if the history makers are seen as representative of humanity. They can be representative if, like George Washington, they are first in the hearts of their countrymen, or if, like Bach or Edison, they have an extraordinary ability to create what the people want.

The parable of the tribes, however, sees the history makers as an unrepresentative lot. To the extent that social evolution is governed by the selection for power, it is the power maximizers who play the important role in the drama of history. This group is selected for its starring role not by the human cast as a whole but by impersonal and ungoverned forces. They are therefore not representative in the democratic sense. Nor in the Gallup Poll sense, for they are selected because of how they are different from the other actors. They are different in their capacity to get and to wield power. Finally, they are not representative in the sense of the hero who carries his community’s banner and fulfills his community’s aspirations, for the power wielders of history have often been the conquerors, the destroyers, the oppressors of their fellow human beings. Though we must see history as a drama in which the main actors are the powerful and aggressive, we should not slip into seeing them as the villains, for it is not the actors who set the stage or who govern the thrust of the plot.

The category of "power maximizers" embraces a couple of different kinds of actors in the human drama. Most especially, it includes entire sovereign social entities (like the imperialistic tribes of the parable) who impinge upon other, previously autonomous societies. The parable of the tribes focuses primarily on the intersocietal system because that system forms the comprehensive context for human action, but more importantly because in that system anarchy has been most complete and least curable. Anarchy is at the core of the problem of power, making struggle inevitable and allowing the ways of power to spread uncontrolled throughout the whole like a contaminant. Thus, nowhere has power had so free and decisive a reign as in that arena of sovereign actors where, by definition, there is no power to hold all in awe.

Yet the problem of power exists in some form also within societies; for even though in one sense societies are governed, in another more profound sense they are usually subject to anarchy. The formation of government and the establishment of the rule of law can be – and usually have been in large measure – the embodiment of the rule of raw power rather than a restraint upon it. The search for a fuller understanding of the problem of power in social evolution leads therefore to an intrasocietal analogue of the parable of the tribes. And the category of history’s power maximizers includes those groups (like the feudal class) and individuals (like Stalin) who are successful in competing for power within a society’s boundaries. Again, it is those distinguished by their capacity to grasp and wield power who gain the means to shape the whole (social) system according to their ways and their vision. And again, the history makers are cast in their roles not by the people affected but by an unchosen selective process; and generally, they are not those whom mankind would choose to guide its destiny.

The Spread of Cultural Innovations Both the commonsense view and the parable of the tribes would predict that innovations tend to spread from their place of origin. Both would predict an erosion of cultural diversity among societies, but the two theories view this process of cultural homogenization differently. If innovations are seen as "improvements," naturally they will spread. When people in more "backward" areas learn of better ways of meeting their needs, they will adopt them. Cultural diversity is thus diminished by a process of diffusion. In the perspective of the parable of the tribes, the historic trend toward cultural homogeneity is decreed by the reign of power. Whether or not a cultural innovation spreads throughout the system of interacting societies depends not so much on its ability to enhance the quality of human life as on its capacity to increase the competitive power of those who adopt it. The ways of power inevitably become universal. While the diffusion model represents cultural homogenization as the result of free human choice, the parable of the tribes stresses the role of compulsion: the conqueror spreads his ways either directly or by compelling others to imitate him in self- defense.

Civilization and Human Needs If civilization were governed by human choice, we would expect it to be fairly well designed for the fulfillment of human needs. This expectation led us earlier to the Rube Goldberg problem, the ludicrous disproportion between the gargantuan apparatus of civilization and the disappointing benefit in human terms. The parable of the tribes sweeps aside this dilemma. If the selection for power, and not choice, has governed the evolving shape of civilized society, there is no reason to expect the design to correspond with the needs of human beings. According to the parable of the tribes, civilized peoples have been compelled to live in societies organized for the maximization of competitive power. People become the servants of their evolving systems, rather than civilized society being the instrument of its members.

Not that the selection for power systematically selects what is injurious to people. The process is not hostile to human welfare, simply indifferent. Many things that serve power serve people as well, such as a degree of social order and the provision of adequate nutrition to keep people functioning. (As this implies, there are a great many roads to hell that the need for social power helps close off.) But the parable of the tribes suggests that the service to people of such power-enhancing attributes of society may be entirely incidental to their raison d’etre. Those of us who now enjoy affluence and freedom as well as power are predisposed to believe that benign forces shape our destiny. But to the extent that our blessings are incidental by-products of the strategy for power at this point in the evolution of civilization, our optimism may be ill-founded. If the forces that now favor us are the same as those that earlier condemned masses of people to tyranny and bondage, the future requirements of power maximization may compel mankind not toward the heavenly utopia to which we aspire but toward the hellish dystopias that some like Orwell and Huxley have envisioned. Our well-being may prove to be less like that of the squire who feeds himself well off the land that he rules than like that of the dairy cow who, though pampered and well fed, is not served but exploited by the system in which she lives. The bottom line that governs her fate is not her own calculation; when she is worth more for meat than for milk, off she goes to the slaughterhouse.

Power and Choice Wisdom is often less a matter of choosing a particular view as the truth than of combining different truths in a balanced way. So it is with the parable of the tribes and the commonsense view of social evolution. The selection for power does govern a good deal of the evolution of civilization, but people also shape their destiny by their choices. The power wielders are, to be sure, prominent in the human drama, but there are creative and charismatic figures (Shakespeare, Buddha) whom we choose to give a very different kind of power to shape our experience. The ways of power may spread by compulsion, but antibiotics, fine silks, and the idea of liberty can diffuse throughout the world by human choice. Thus, while human well-being may be incidental to one major social- evolutionary force, there is room for human aspiration to dictate a part of the story. I therefore argue not that the parable of the tribes has been the sole force directing the evolution of civilization but only that it has been an extremely important one.

The evolution of civilization can be seen as dialectic between the systematic selection for power and the human striving for a humane world, between the necessities imposed upon humankind regardless of their wishes and their efforts to be able to choose the cultural environment in which they will live.
 
Have you read the Parable of the Tribes? (Long but good read. The underlined part is the most relevant)

Thank you, I read the underlined part, and will read the rest later. This is why I believe contentment to be one of the ultimate virtues. Achieving contentment in itself can leave much destruction in its path, but if we as humans can strive towards simply being content then I think that with our knowledge and technology that we could have mostly peace. There will always be those trying to overturn that which is, but if the vast majority are content these sowers of chaos should be stamped out.

We are so far from such a prospect, that I only view it as worth discussing in a very idealistic way if everything at this point goes right. The likelihood is small, but I believe in infinity, and we will get it right infinite times and wrong infinite times all at different branches of what is. I would like to think that in the reality I perceive we will be one of those branches which gets it right.

Really fucking optimistic I know, but perhaps making the choice to not believe in something is the act that turns the branch from getting it right to getting it wrong?

We should be content and simultaneously attempt to realize our potential. Contradictory, but only if one says that we attempt to realize our potential at any cost, which in my opinion is bullshit. This includes respecting our environment, and not attempting to realize our potential when doing so would destroy that which sustains us.

Even those who are dying, sick, and in pain can be content with proper circumstance. One of my favorite philosophers is Epicurus. I also love his mentor Democritus. Going back further in time the names become sound and smoke, but the beginnings of such ideas are there.

I hope I made some amount of sense to someone. I have trouble putting these thoughts into words, especially when I am staring at my PC screen.
 
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I don't think I understand the question.

Are you personally going to put out my fire? What if I live in a high-rise?



Hey, I'm not opposed to decentralization, wealth redistribution, or erosion of the state. These things are actually paramount in my own political beliefs. The thing that hangs me up is doings so without a commons, without democracy. Is all of this really going to be done in a privatized, individualized form? What's to stop a profit-driven anarchistic society from becoming just as corrupt as a state?

With all due respect, anarcho-capitalism sounds like the very essence of the crumbling of society and a regression back to whoever has the biggest stick.

No need to reference me to Hayek or Mises literature, my international business professor was a bit of a fanboy.



Heh, I take it you don't live in Michigan. The Federal government foots the bill for maintaining federal roads year round. State and municipal transport infrastructure the same. There's more to roadway transportation than just building new roads.

But the question still begs, how is there any order without a commonly owned infrastructure in an anarchistic society?


Better example, you get cancer, they remove it, what do they replace it with?


Democracy sucks. imposing the majority's will unto people who disagree is aggression. There will be commons, societies would have to exist with actual social contracts. You would join a community that enforced the laws and supported the social programs you want to enjoy. They could designate commons or land could even be donated to the cause if those with businesses in the area believed it would be beneficial. All of this with full transparency. The fact of voluntary interaction will stop corruption. Reputation would be important for both businesses and individuals.

Your international business professor sounds like a smart person. %)
 
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On to your TAXES rant.

Hey man, if you want to be a US citizen pay your fucking tax, and be proud of it. If you don't want to pay your tax there are a ton of countries out there where you don't have to pay tax. Just don't expect access to our infrastructure and technology when you find yourself in need.

Why is someone like you still an American citizen? The world is a big place, and there are quite a few areas where it would be easy to practice the type of government you preach. I just doubt many people will go along with you. These places are infamous for lacking any sort of human rights protection, and the amount of people in these places that are simply killed and forgotten is quite shocking.

Things that happen in these areas....that happy, successful family down the street is just gone one day because someone bigger and stronger wanted what they had. The little girl was so beautiful, probably fetched a pretty penny. At least while they were there they had freedom from taxation!

Yeah, this is utter horseshit. There is no place civilization can exist on this earth that hasn't been ruined by government already. Where are you talking about? If you say Somalia, I'm going to gather all 7 dragonballs to wish myself right next to you so I can smack you in the face with a picture of the president of Somalia. I want to move, I have to pay for my passport. I have to fucking pay the government to buy back my right to travel. Not to mention that if I become a citizen somewhere else and renounce citizenship in the us I still pay income taxes for 10 years. There can be infrastructure and technology without government.
 
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Bardo, I'll get back to your post when I have some more free time. Apologies in advance for the delay...

Do you think the advent of large amounts of easy credit had anything to do with wage suppression?

Do you mean personal credit or international credit? Because my answers won't be the same...

I think your outlook here is far too simple. The attempt to isolate inflation as the single driving force for wage increase is just flat out wrong.

Yes, and if you actually read my post (which I suggest you go do again because you are confused), I first paraphrased noone1 who argued that wages having not also been increasing with inflation was the problem. In order words, when inflation goes up, wage does not necessarily follow (again, his words). To this, I said "all this says is that inflation increasing is not a sufficient condition for inflation increasing." This is the only logical relationship between the inflation and wage variables than can be taken from noone1's comment. Because my original question was conditioned on the wage variable going up, what he said falls outside of my thought experiment.

It SHOULD play a large role, but when prices go up, and the de-unionized workers just go out and get another minimum wage job something is broken. Idiot Americans have stopped fighting for their wages, and our government has allowed de-facto slave labor in the form of illegals. Etc, etc, etc...this problem is fucking complex, don't try to oversimplify please.

In the post back when I posed that question, I also wrote a paragraph in which I argued that the "fight for fifteen" momentum should be instead used on pro-union efforts. Did you see that part?

What are you getting at? That some anarchist super state will be able to guarantee my human rights?

I hope you are joking, because if not, that's probably the worst case of an oxymoron I've ever seen.

Here are a first and second page to read on this subject, as I think they will address many of the misconceptions that are apparent in your post. If you get through them, tag me in this thread and I'll come back and chat with you. Or PM me.

As to the other stuff, taxes don't drive my political beliefs. There are much worse issues to get worked up over. I'm talking about them on here because others already brought up the issue.

If I am to move to Somalia, then should the Bernie people move to Scandinavia? It's pretty absurd to think that people with different political beliefs should feel pressured to leave...
 
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Firstly to superelephant:
Do you think Somalia is a place where true anarchists can make a home? I find it offensive that you would use such an example. If you don't think there is a place you can go to to not pay taxes and not receive benefits then you are very naive, or don't have the creativity to find such an area. They even exist within nation-states. /aside

Now to the meat:

The majority imposing their will on the minority. Why the fuck do you think there are human rights? Why do we here in Germany uphold the preservation of human dignity above all else? Talk about a straw man. Just because the majority agree to do something doesn't mean the rights of the minority are worthless, and not to be protected and respected.

I am of the opinion that when a minority goes against the majority by having a certain way of being which causes quantifiable harm within their society then they need to change their behavior, or find a new home where they can be who they want to be. We should not allow some dude to improperly sacrifice a lamb in the middle of Time's Square. We should also not allow people to be stoned in public even if some minorities subscribe to this belief. We also have a moral imperative to fight against unjust laws passed by the majority. How else should it be, what is your opinion?

Of course there are instances where the majority has been successful in oppressing minorities through unfair laws, and there always will be (Drug war, anti-choice, creationists, anti-LGBT, etc, etc...). Have you looked around recently? People are fighting successfully for change in these areas. The simple fact that these people can fight for change and not be killed because of it is a NEW, WONDROUS, and BEAUTIFUL development. People used to simple be killed or locked away forever for attempting these things! Please don't let all the negatives take away from what we have achieved!

Just because some backwards ass areas have chosen to be oppressive assholes will not stand in the way of real change (unless we allow them a libertarian style of government). Sometimes it takes just that oppression for the good people to get fed up, and change the system from within as it was designed to be done. Such is the paradox of the human.

You are living in a dream world if you think any sort of libertarian system can ever guarantee this same amount of freedom for all on a large scale. Not sure if you have been to some of the worst parts of the US, but I thank whatever there may be that our CENTRAL government is able to PROTECT these poor souls to the best of their ability. In these areas the influence of the CENTRAL government has been intentionally eroded so that those locally in power can do whatever the fuck they want, including OPPRESSING minorities they don't like. Often these locals like to call themselves libertarians.

Nothing is perfect, and nothing will ever be perfect. The frame provided us by the Founding Fathers, who built upon the age of Enlightenment, who built upon the Magna Carta, who built upon Roman representation, who built upon Greek democracy, who built upon ideas from the Egyptians, Persians, Assyrians, and Babylonians.

What the fuck can you do better that they haven't already tried? What do you see as the end point of Libertarianism? Do you believe in the inherent good in man? I don't.



Again, on to the tax issue:

Sorry, if I didn't read some of your more important points RedLeader. The articles you pointed me to are trying to redefine Anarchy as something it isn't. I will never define the ideas brought forth in those articles as Anarchy. That is libertarian trip-trap which will leave us with more misery than ever before. Saying that, I view the libertarian trip-trap as preferable to anarchy.

The second article is more of the same. Attempting to define something which isn't close to what Anarchy is as Anarchy. I disagree with these attempts to change the meaning of a very old word and the ideas it conveys. Just call yourself a libertarian and be done with it.

When you say it is wrong that people should be forced to move for their political beliefs I agree with to to an extent. There are some beliefs which are incompatible with our culture (e.g. Sharia Law).

Whether you pay your taxes or not has nothing to do with your political belief. If you don't pay them you are a criminal because you are screwing everyone else around you who does participate. You don't have to like the taxes, and you can try your best politically to get rid of them, and the majority of people will laugh in your face. Usually, the best strategy is to push for more transparency, and more control of where the taxes go. The US has had decades to vote in people who would represent them and put their tax money to good work, but they didn't. Voting rates are something like ~30% on average. Make of that what you will.

Even if you try your hardest to avoid OUR infrastructure and services provided by OUR taxes you will not be able to within the US. Your very existence could most likely be owed to what OUR taxes have built. When you don't contribute, but use OUR shit without OUR permission that IS theft.

I agree there is much reform to be done with regards to our tax systems, and the government needs to start paying the elite tax pros big bucks to hunt down OUR money. Not an IRS for the common man (analogy:FBI), but a semi-global IRS (analogy:CIA) to beat the super wealthy at their own game. Public enemy #1 are tax evading oligarchs and their enablers.

Anyhow, for anyone who doesn't want to pay their taxes to the USA in order to enjoy the quality of life they have there, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE BEFORE WE THROW YOU IN PRISON. You will always have your right to your opinion that being taxed is shitty, and you will always have your right to blah blah about it all you want. I will fight for your right to do so within OUR system.

This situation is black and white, and anyone trying to hide not paying taxes behind a political philosophy is more than likely going to end up far worse off than if they had simply paid their taxes, because at that point they ARE a thief. They are stealing from me, my parents, my brothers and sisters, my cousins, my colleagues, and all the other people paying their taxes in an attempt to create a world they want to be part of. I love the fact that my parents are able to retire soon, and enjoy the country around them they have worked their asses off to build.

I can't stand asshole libertarians trying to burn everything down in some fanciful fit of retarded pride.

If you don't want to pay taxes then please shut off all of your utilities, stop driving anywhere on the roads the taxpayers pay for, stop buying anything produced on the infrastructure paid for by our taxes, don't you dare call emergency services when you have an emergency because you have not subsidized them, let alone paid taxes for the infrastructure they use to both get your communication and to get to you. School your children at home, and defend yourself from any people meaning to do you harm, etc, etc, etc...

Basically, why the fuck do you want to be part of the USA at that point?

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