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Going to meetings (12 step) while on maintenance therapy.

absent minded

absent minded

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
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Seattle, WA
I was just wondering how many people here regularly attend NA or AA meetings that are also on MMT or Suboxone ? I've done the 12-step thing here and there, it's not personally my thing. I was just wondering how many people here do the thing while on maintenance therapy and if they get any sort of flak for doing so. In my experience 12 step programs and the folks that attend them are very judgemental toward it and don't view that as being "clean".
 
Eh, it depends on the meeting. I know my first sponsor would say that I wasn't clean because I still take benzos for severe anxiety and panic attacks. I fired him after he suggested one time too many that I needed to quit taking my psych meds. Honestly, I'd probably be smoking weed too if my ex hadn't requisitioned my stash for her own use and my source hadn't moved away to pursue graduate school. Like I said in another thread, the important question to ask is, is whatever you're using fucking up your life? Is there really a reason for people to know that you're on maintenance therapy? Really, it's none of their fucking business, IMO.

There are assholes everywhere in life, including twelve step meetings. You just have to find one where the asshole to tolerable people ratio works for you. I wrote off AA at one point because I figured there was no point in exploring other meetings because everyone in AA must be like that. Didn't get sober until I found a meeting that worked for me. I go to an agnostic/atheist meeting, not because I necessarily am one, but as a secular Jew, I am much more comfortable in a setting that isn't permeated with religious talk. There are several of us that go to that meeting for the selfsame reason.
 
If you wan to go don't let narrow minded assholes hold you back. Its really nonebodys business what you do when your not at a meeting. Way more 12 steppers smoke weed then will admit it at a meeting.
 
What's the point of subscribing to the philosophy and go to the meetings if you dont follow even the most basic tennant. You can't do any steps before you are able to get completely clean, which includes smoking weed and mmt / suboxone.


I wish there were as many SMART recovery meetings as AA/NA. :(
 
Why do people have to see everything as so black and white??? Take what you need and leave the rest. I'm sick of hearing people bitch about 12 step and talk about how much better SMART recovery is. Then they actually go to SMART and find out that honest self-reflection is still a requirement of sobriety and then they bitch about SMART. Sobriety is hard work. There's no easy way around it. AA/NA by itself ain't gonna sober you up, SMART ain't gonna sober you up by itself, psych meds ain't gonna sober you up by themselves. I wish people would stop bitching and looking for that magic solution that doesn't exist. Besides, you live in a major metropolitan area like Seattle and you're complaining about the lack of SMART meetings? You sound to me like someone just looking for excuses. Unlike so many people who like to run AA/NA into the ground and tout the superiority of SMART, I actually GO to SMART meetings. And nothing's changed. Sobriety is still an uphill battle.
 
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aihfl said:
Why do people have to see everything as so black and white??? Take what you need and leave the rest. I'm sick of hearing people bitch about 12 step and talk about how much better SMART recovery is. Then they actually go to SMART and find out that honest self-reflection is still a requirement of sobriety and then they bitch about SMART. Sobriety is hard work. There's no easy way around it. AA/NA by itself ain't gonna sober you up, SMART ain't gonna sober you up by itself, psych meds ain't gonna sober you up by themselves. I wish people would stop bitching and looking for that magic solution that doesn't exist. Besides, you live in a major metropolitan area like Seattle and you're complaining about the lack of SMART meetings? You sound to me like someone just looking for excuses. Unlike so many people who like to run AA/NA into the ground and tout the superiority of SMART, I actually GO to SMART meetings. And nothing's changed. Sobriety is still an uphill battle.
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Nobody said sobriety is going to be easy, whether you have pharmacological interventions, NA/AA, Smart Recovery or any other method you can care to mention. Of course it's a battle each way. The guy has a point though, you aren't sober on MMT/subutex. I have made infinitely more progress these past 12 days entirely sober than I did in my 12 weeks of subutex haze. It can be a useful method to get yourself to a place where you can get off opiates entirely, but I think that should always be the end game - they should be used as tools to get yourself to a place where you can get entirely sober, not drugs that you stay on for months & years, since your addiction is essentially paused when you're on them. Sure, you're no longer actively destroying your life, but your body & mind can't heal and learn to cope without drugs when you're still taking an opiate everyday, prescribed or not. In this sense I'd say NA is absolutely right - you are NOT clean and not sober when you're taking subutex or methadone.
 
aihfl said:
Why do people have to see everything as so black and white??? Take what you need and leave the rest. I'm sick of hearing people bitch about 12 step and talk about how much better SMART recovery is. Then they actually go to SMART and find out that honest self-reflection is still a requirement of sobriety and then they bitch about SMART. Sobriety is hard work. There's no easy way around it. AA/NA by itself ain't gonna sober you up, SMART ain't gonna sober you up by itself, psych meds ain't gonna sober you up by themselves. I wish people would stop bitching and looking for that magic solution that doesn't exist. Besides, you live in a major metropolitan area like Seattle and you're complaining about the lack of SMART meetings? You sound to me like someone just looking for excuses. Unlike so many people who like to run AA/NA into the ground and tout the superiority of SMART, I actually GO to SMART meetings. And nothing's changed. Sobriety is still an uphill battle.
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Preach it, brother! Preach it. You're right. You know me better than myself even, it seems. In fact, you reminded me what I love most about 12 step meetings - the member's ability and capacity to be so judgemental and preachy! It really helps! Thank you so much for opening my eyes!! It'a good to see that the 12 step meetings have made you so understanding.

8)

I'm not even going to bother trying to explain myself to you as you are making so many assumptions and already have (incorrect) preconceived notions of my intent as well. Don't bother bringing that negativity here please.

Other than that, thank you very much for these replies - I think this is a good discussion to have and I would love to keep it going. Thank you again everyone.
 
Just don't bring it up. MMT is going to be more controversial then Sub. I've known people on MMT. When you get around to choosing a sponsor, let them know. I sponsor guys on sub, I would sponsor someone very serious on MMT who planned to slowly taper. I don't care if a sponsee is on Sub for life.
 
That's what I was thinking. I really still do want to get that support group network with people and that kind of thing is undoubtedly beneficial to recovery... and unfortunately 12 step programs are the most widely available way to find groups of people that share the same problem that you do. Thanks for your input phactor.
 
phactor said:
Just don't bring it up. MMT is going to be more controversial then Sub. I've known people on MMT. When you get around to choosing a sponsor, let them know. I sponsor guys on sub, I would sponsor someone very serious on MMT who planned to slowly taper. I don't care if a sponsee is on Sub for life.
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Honest question. What do you see as the difference between sub and methadone?
 
I refused to grab key tags because I felt guilty about being in Suboxone. The guy who leads the meetings gave me a brochure on medications and NA and it is allowed. Once you are stabilized on a dose it is just chemical dependency and not active usage. It is also a medically supervised medication. Some people are lifers and that's the closest to sober they will ever get but if one stays on one dose the way tolerance works, it is just keeping them well and not getting them high. I made sure to stay on a dose lower than my tolerance and it was really uncomfortable for the first few months but I am lucid, anxiety and depression are intense and it isn't numbing me so that I can confront my feelings and emotions as if I was completely sober. Technically, no it isn't "sober" but I am experiencing everything fully conscious and not floating on a cloud of contentment. Most people wont let themselves understand this and will write you off but people react negatively to things they don't understand. Most of the people I have met at meetings have been understanding of it however.

Being stabilized on buprenorphine does just that, keeps the user stable. It's chemical dependency with less side effects than most anti-depressants but most people aren't willing to understand that but it's ok. I've chosen to be honest with everyone about the fact that I am utilizing it in early recovery and the reactions have been mixed. Mostly negative but I can't own that and I can only try to educate and just have to accept it when someone that means a lot to me uses it to discredit my struggles.
 
abstinent and sober are two very different things.

That being said, I feel that if you need a medication take it. Only you and your doctor know what you need to be healthy.

I am working on my own recovery program that incorporates people that are on MMT/Bupe because they also have something to offer to the discussion. I had too many people telling me I that I shouldn't be taking benzos or psych meds when in reality I function a lot better on them. I know this because I tried to stop taking my anti depressants and benzos in recovery and it lead me right back to actively self medicating my feelings. I now only take benzos PRN, and even that is extremely rare.

What I propose is: For some folks AA/NA doesn't work because they have psychological issues that need to be addressed in addition to their addiction issues. Smart recovery is also the same way. In order to help people, you need to tailor their program to their abilities and functionality. Someone that is depressed, and used because they are depressed needs to have their depression met on a psychological level as well as spiritual. I have anxiety, and being judged so harshly for needing medications made me not want to go to meetings. There needs to be a forum that is inclusive of people from all walks of life. There also needs to be more free rehabs/ sober living facilities run on donations and staffed appropriately in order for this to work.

Well, I guess in a nutshell I have to say that what you do is your own concern and if the medications you are taking are improving your quality of life then by all means take them. If meetings don't work for you, try something different. Seek therapy if you need it, and see a psychiatrist if you need meds. Most people in meetings are not doctors, nor are they able to fully understand how you feel inside, so to let these people effect the way you manage your health and mentality is not necessarily a good thing.
 
Thank you. I keep telling everyone that the help I need right now is psychological help and I keep having the 12 steps and everybody elses ideas of what I should be doing forced on me. I keep trying to get it through to everyone that they aren't qualified to treat me right now and the way they are going about everything is just making my situation worse. I have failed miserably the past 3 times trying to get sober and this time I connected with people trying to resolve past issues that stem from mental health issues and trauma. In this way I can confront the effect of past trauma and find resolve within that as a way to acknowledge what makes me the way I am and what shaped the behavioral tendencies that had me more likely to do what I have done, none of this obsolves my past wrong doings but it was a form of therapy until I could get therapy. None of that worked out, I've been told that I was wrong but these things would have helped me while I waited for psychological help which I have waited 4 months for and now have. People are horrible but I think they mean well. I have a great understanding of myself and people have taken it upon themselves to be my saving grace but all it's done is deprive me of what I needed for recovery. Feels good to know that I am finally within reaching distance of the help that I so desperately need.
 
I really appreciate what everyone had done to add to this discussion. I am really getting alot out of readingas your advice and stories regarding the mix of maintenance therapy / psych meds/ benzos from a doctor and 12 step meetings. This is really good for me.

Thanks again everyone
 
Ligaturd said:
Thank you. I keep telling everyone that the help I need right now is psychological help and I keep having the 12 steps and everybody elses ideas of what I should be doing forced on me. I keep trying to get it through to everyone that they aren't qualified to treat me right now and the way they are going about everything is just making my situation worse. I have failed miserably the past 3 times trying to get sober and this time I connected with people trying to resolve past issues that stem from mental health issues and trauma. In this way I can confront the effect of past trauma and find resolve within that as a way to acknowledge what makes me the way I am and what shaped the behavioral tendencies that had me more likely to do what I have done, none of this obsolves my past wrong doings but it was a form of therapy until I could get therapy. None of that worked out, I've been told that I was wrong but these things would have helped me while I waited for psychological help which I have waited 4 months for and now have. People are horrible but I think they mean well. I have a great understanding of myself and people have taken it upon themselves to be my saving grace but all it's done is deprive me of what I needed for recovery. Feels good to know that I am finally within reaching distance of the help that I so desperately need.
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There are two types of recovery programs I would be wary of: 12 steps that are overtly religious based (There are quite a few meetings like this. Aifhl has it right, there are good meetings that don't push insane religious practices on you), and Synanon based rehabs. Basically, most rehabs are run on this model. It is rather destructive to the psyche of an addict in early recovery. Behavioral therapy based rehabs that actually have psychologists and therapists (instead of just previous graduates) running the groups is extremely helpful. This is one reason some people can go to a series of rehabs and not have it work. They may have just been treated wrong, and considering synanon rehab workers are like carpenters with only a hammer, basically every problem looks like a nail in that situation and chances are your problems aren't all nails.

good luck.
 
The only requirement to attend a meeting is the desire to get sober.
That seems to be something most everyone in this thread is forgetting.
My advice as someone who takes psych meds that can be frowned upon is to attend as many meetings as you like but maybe avoid getting a real sponsor until you've finished maintenance meds. Maybe find someone you trust and talk to them but hold off on your steps.
I go to meetings sporadicly but I don't work the steps because I don't 100% agree with them even though I'm already sober.
 
Mmp85 said:
The only requirement to attend a meeting is the desire to get sober.
That seems to be something most everyone in this thread is forgetting.
My advice as someone who takes psych meds that can be frowned upon is to attend as many meetings as you like but maybe avoid getting a real sponsor until you've finished maintenance meds. Maybe find someone you trust and talk to them but hold off on your steps.
I go to meetings sporadicly but I don't work the steps because I don't 100% agree with them even though I'm already sober.
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I am the same way about the steps. There is a lot of good tools there, but I think you need to do what keeps you sober. I find that quite a few people on maintenance could work the steps (if they so choose to) because they aren't actually participating in addictive behaviors. Detox is beats dependence, and therapy/groupwork beats addiction.
 
I agree that you'd be fine working your steps, the only reason I say hold off is because someone else may choose to be a jerk about it and while it shouldn't matter, that's the kind of anxiety and stress that can push you away from sobriety.
 
You are so right mmp85. I was pushed away from meetings while I was on benzos. They told me that wasn't "sobriety", basically failing to distinguish between abstinence and sobriety. As soon as they heard I was on benzos, I was out of the clique basically. In all honesty and fairness, it is best to take everything in the rehab/steps industry piecemeal and do what is best for yourself as an individual. The twelve steps are not an end all beat all, and they really are only fully successful for a small group of people. If you go to a lot of meetings it is the few people that can put together a decade or so. These people are the anomaly and not the rule.

I find myself getting hung up on the spiritual aspect of the steps. Basically I feel that it isn't some magical deity that is going to take away my desire to use. It is a hard process that comes down to desire to maintain ones life, and willpower. Believing that a higher power is going to stop you is just placing blame and responsibility on someone/something other than ourselves.
 
Exactly. I often found myself looking around at meetings and asking, "If God is going to magically cure me of my desire to drink, why did he make me an alcoholic in the first place when he could have saved us both a hell of a lot of trouble?" And like you I take benzos and other meds for my bipolar and don't appreciate non-medical professionals telling me it's more important to be their version of "clean" than it is to be my doctors version of mentally stable which is what helps keep me my version of clean. So I attend meetings when the whim hits me but don't work the steps or use a sponsor.
 
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