Misc If a drug has a long history of traditional use how likely does that mean it's safe?

[deruyityn]

I've heard some say that this means it most likely is safe but others say that it is 'no evidence at all' that it's safe.

I mean if it caused acute negative effects it is easy to tell but what about if the negative effects were delayed like incidence of cancer? Would it ever be known that the traditional medicine was the cause?

So I would like to open the discussion as to other people's opinion on this matter regarding specifically the liklihood of knowing long term negatives if any of a traditional herb with several centuries usage.

 

[tacodude]

It means it has a history of safe use, like cannibis, but that does not mean there is no danger as cannibis does have its own minor addiction as well as setting off underlying mental health disorders like the CO guy who took out a gun on his wife, which became a murder suicide if I remember correctly, and all because a "60 mg" THC edible dose.

 

[deruyityn]

But I wonder... if it's deemed safe are they factoring in long term health issues which may arise from it, ie would they know about them or not? How would anyone draw a link between delayed cancer incidence for instance and some traditional herb? How would that not fly under the radar?

 

[bukweat]

Take a look at alcohol. As a drug I can't think of one with a longer history of use. I consider it at least as dangerous as heroin, legal issues aside. I don't know where you're going with this, anyway that's my opinion.

 

[shreddedlettuce]

Take a look at alcohol. As a drug I can't think of one with a longer history of use. I consider it at least as dangerous as heroin, legal issues aside. I don't know where you're going with this, anyway that's my opinion.

^^ This!!!

 

[deruyityn]

Where Im going with it is..I have wanted to try a lesser known herb called erythrina mulungu for a long while now yet couldn't find alot of good studies done on it.

Of those I could find a couple indicated that it *might* be genotoxic at some doses, while a couple of others say it isn't. Since genotoxicity is a very extreme thing I have been very cautious about taking it.

Nothing conclusive. However it has been used for a few hundred years by the indigieous people of brazil and surrounding parts and there are no reports of direct fatalities. Though acute fatalities is different from long term hence my trepidation.

I would say it's had about 10 years exposure in the west now on the more esoteric ethnobotanical forums. So similar to kratom in that respect though a fraction as popular.

Since I can't get hard data I am trying to deduce how likely it would be that long term effects such as concer would have presented themselves by now in medical literature if indeed it was genotoxic.

Alcohol is one of the most studied drugs of all time so I don't think it counts. Sure it is 'traditioanlly used' but also well studied so we know nearly all the ins and outs of it. I'm trying to establish how likely long term negatives of lesser studied drugs would have had such effects identified by now if they weren't immediatly apparent.

 

[Thomas29]

Every Any Substance Mind Altering Or Not Has SIDE-EFFECTS!

 

[Foreigner]

Most of the best herbal knowledge comes from lineage practices or centuries of use, as long as the chain remained relatively unbroken and there was consistent documentation. A good example is China. Their herbal materia medica is matched only by that of India's. That's because their civilizations have remained relatively constant, and they developed systems of excellence in the application and discourse of plants. Everywhere in the world has indigenous knowledge and lineage healers, but places like Europe and North America experienced systematic attacks on this knowledge. A lot of people burned as witches during the burning times were herbalists, and those lineages are lost forever. They also burned books from the Greco-Roman era that we'll never get back, which talked about many occult uses. The few remaining materials that I've studied are AMAZING.

If an herb has a long history of traditional use, and you use it accorded to its intended uses, then yes it can be safe. However, most people who are into herbal medicine only have superficial knowledge of herbs, through the modern natural healthy industry, or through what fad marketing tells them. So people take an herb, and it either doesn't work or it makes them feel off, and they blame herbal medicine... but most modern indications in the marketing have nothing to do with traditional uses. The true wisdom of plant medicine goes much, much deeper. I have both lineage and clinical training in herbalism, and I learn new things every day.

For instance... pill popping is so popular in our society, that most people don't know that dried herbs in pill form are among the weakest form of herbal preparation.

deruyitin, do you have any specific herbs in mind? This is a very broad subject.

 

[manboychef]

classic drugs are generally benign by themselves...including heroin. It is the lifestyle, the legal effects(ie coming from street dealers), and the intent of the user that drives up the risk involved in taking them.

Like foreigner pointed out. Most herbal remedies are excellent if used correctly. Take the effects of peppermint tea on settling a nauseated stomach. That is just a small example of herblore and practical use of herbal remedies. Most of these plants have thousands of years of indigenous use, and when used in the right dosage and context can be wonderful alternatives to the dangerous chemicals pushed on us by Big Pharma. In fact most of the chemicals big pharma pushes on us come from natural herbal remedies in which they have isolated the alkaloid that has the desired effect.

Just be safe, do your research and use responsibly. That is the best advice.

 

[deruyityn]

You guys are going off base here talking about the new age/culture aspect of it. Course it might be bercause I wasnt clear enough but I thought I was in my second repsonse.

I'm merely asking if say a certain drug had an effect like how cigarettes cause cancer (being that there is a 20 year lag on average), how likely would it be that they would have discovered the link back to the given herb used in that traditional setting.

So even though it has enjoyed a long history of use, would they identify a link like that which has a delayed effect if indeed it did cause something like that down the line?

 

[spacejunk]

I see what you're saying - but i think the best answer with the info i have at hand (virtually zero) - is to suggest is you dig up as much information as you can;
- where did you hear the claim?
- what region's people/cultures utilised/utilised erythrina mulungu?
- can information be gleaned from these traditions; statistics or studies conducted on them?
- can you find any studies/reviews/journal articles on this herb (if not, do you have access to any academic databases, or know anyone that does?)

I hope that's not stating the obvious too much; just a small breakdown of how i would go about researching something of this nature.
Personally, ive been meaning to try mulungu for years, but never got around to it (then got a bit too heavily into benzos - which was a bad move).
I assume it must work for you if you consume it with such regularity?

Also, if you have found studies with contradictory/varying conclusions, it may be worth asking a similar question (with as many nitty-gritty details as you can manage) to the wise folks over in Neuroscience and Pharmacology Discussion

 

[Neithman]

Take a look at alcohol. As a drug I can't think of one with a longer history of use. I consider it at least as dangerous as heroin, legal issues aside. I don't know where you're going with this, anyway that's my opinion.

^this
I would say that alcohol isnt as addictive in the sense that its harder to pick up an instant addiction(hangover,no real rush)but once u get going it is fucking destructive and way more physically harming than heroin

 

[deruyityn]

I've done all that already including posting in neuroscience. I think sekio must be fed up of me badgering him about it :D

If you look at my post history you would see that is pretty much all I've been posting about for the last 8 months or so :D

Yet I've come up 'inconclusive'. hence why I still keep trying to dig but coming up short. at least in terms of scientific papers that assure it's safety.

And I have never even tried it yet, been too afriad due to hypochondriac nature. but it does seem to have great therapeutic potential hence why I keep researching.

I see what you're saying - but i think the best answer with the info i have at hand (virtually zero) - is to suggest is you dig up as much information as you can;
- where did you hear the claim?
- what region's people/cultures utilised/utilised erythrina mulungu?
- can information be gleaned from these traditions; statistics or studies conducted on them?
- can you find any studies/reviews/journal articles on this herb (if not, do you have access to any academic databases, or know anyone that does?)

I hope that's not stating the obvious too much; just a small breakdown of how i would go about researching something of this nature.
Personally, ive been meaning to try mulungu for years, but never got around to it (then got a bit too heavily into benzos - which was a bad move).
I assume it must work for you if you consume it with such regularity?

Also, if you have found studies with contradictory/varying conclusions, it may be worth asking a similar question (with as many nitty-gritty details as you can manage) to the wise folks over in Neuroscience and Pharmacology Discussion

 

[manboychef]

if you are so uncertain then don't do it. Usually if you have to consider something this much it is probably not a good idea.

 

[deruyityn]

Phytochemical study and mutagenic analysis of leaves and flowers of Erythrina coral tree (Mart. Ex Benth.) By micronucleus test in rodents

Genotoxicity and cytotoxicity of Erythrina velutina Willd., Fabaceae, on the root meristem cells of Allium cepa

Investigation of protective effects of Erythrina velutina extract against MMS induced damages in the root meristem cells of Allium cepa

Neuropharmacological and genotoxic evaluation of ethanol extract from Erythrina falcata leaves, a plant used in Brazilian folk medicine

So above are the 4 main articles I could find on the subject. As you can see 2 point to it being possibly genotoxic while the other two say it is either benign or even protective.

I would like to hear other opinions on how they felt about it's safety after they themselves read those papers.

 

[spacejunk]

I've done all that already including posting in neuroscience. I think sekio must be fed up of me badgering him about it :D

If you look at my post history you would see that is pretty much all I've been posting about for the last 8 months or so :D

Oops - sorry i didn't know that!
I don't peruse that subforum as often as i should. Mainly because i'm not sciencey enough to contribute much (and i make up words like 'sciencey')

 

[Foreigner]

You guys are going off base here talking about the new age/culture aspect of it. Course it might be bercause I wasnt clear enough but I thought I was in my second repsonse.

I'm merely asking if say a certain drug had an effect like how cigarettes cause cancer (being that there is a 20 year lag on average), how likely would it be that they would have discovered the link back to the given herb used in that traditional setting.

So even though it has enjoyed a long history of use, would they identify a link like that which has a delayed effect if indeed it did cause something like that down the line?

I understand what you're saying. When you put the word esoteric next to ethnobotanical, I get confused. Ethnobotany is the research of indigenous plants, for food or medicinal uses. It's a scientific study. Are you saying that the particular forums you checked out were very new age? If so, you might want to ignore that info. But if it's a real ethnobotany research forum then it could be very useful.

The short answer to your question is that they may or may not have known about the toxic effect, or if they did they would call it something else. For example, with tobacco and cancer... cancer is a modern term, but what cancer is, has been around forever. It's been called different things, had different explanations for its existence, and had different treatment protocols. So if you do ethnobotanical research on a plant, you'll need to open your mind and consider all discrepancies because the traditional wisdom might not tell you things in your world view, but they are still warnings you might want to heed. For instance, I can read up on a Chinese herb and it will say: "Warning, do not use in cases with liver yang upsurging." Which means, in their concept about 400 years ago, the herb sends qi upward, but you don't want to send qi upward if there's already too much liver yang going upward because it will cause dizziness, ringing in the ears, dry eyes, etc. Translation: don't use this herb if you have hypertension because it raises blood pressure.

And if something comes up that just doesn't make sense to you, then you'll have to find a person from the culture that uses that plant to explain it to you. The internet's awesome because some of those people are online now, but depending on where the knowledge comes from they might not share it with outsiders.

One last piece of advice though? Even if you find useful historical data, make sure you put it into context. What was good for them back then may not be good for you now, or vice versa.

If you end up finding some obscure info and start experimenting, be sure to share your knowledge with the community! (Assuming the source of the info says it's ok!)

 

[nuube]

All drugs can harm and its down to an individual use and indeed this can change from one use to the next. If you look at the BNF - the UK Drs prescribing guide it contains a 'yellow card' for alerting them to new negative side-effects that someone has experienced from taking it. Yet all those drugs in there have gone through years of testing BEFORE even getting to the human taking stage and even with that due to the unique nature of someone taking a drug there still could be reactions.

A personal example was I was prescribed an antibiotic, one that I had taken several times in the past and whatever was going on with my body the drug caused damage to my liver and I ended up with Jaundice and in hospital on drips. I think I had taken the drug only the year before with no complications.

That was a hell of a wake up call I can tell you as it made me wonder if some day a trip on a NPS would end up with a trip to the hospital, there were some anxious thoughts the first time I took anything after that . I have seen people react extremely bad to drugs that other people have taken with no side-effects and people develop side-effects after years of use when they had none before, (I'm specifically referring to prescribed drugs), and these are drugs that have supposedly been rigorously tested.

The tree you speak of is Brazilian and maybe there is something in the genetic make-up of the Brazilians that have been using it that protects against negative effects that you may not possess. Personally speaking if the research says by and large it appears safe then if you are going to use the substance you will have to go with that info with the rider that for you that may not hold true.

 

[deruyityn]

The tree you speak of is Brazilian and maybe there is something in the genetic make-up of the Brazilians that have been using it that protects against negative effects that you may not possess. Personally speaking if the research says by and large it appears safe then if you are going to use the substance you will have to go with that info with the rider that for you that may not hold true.

Well it's also had about a decades's exposure in the west now although it's not really popular so a smaller sample size to say kratom.

 

[deruyityn]

I understand what you're saying.
If you end up finding some obscure info and start experimenting, be sure to share your knowledge with the community! (Assuming the source of the info says it's ok!)

The hypertension thing is still a minor side effect. Im not worried about minor ones as you can easily work with them. As I said I'm talking specifically about long term fatal diseases which would stem from chronic usage and whether and how they would be spotted or not.

Of course everyone knew cancer was bad and were aware of it. You are conflating what I was saying. I was proposing would they have known there was a link between cancer and cigarrettes before it was proven with modern medicine. because they used to think cigarettes were good for you and cured coughs rather than caused them etc.