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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

I want to start obtaining my benzos the right way. Please help me

Mycophile, I 100% agree that the word to describe these situations is INFURIATING with capital letters.
Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath, and a quotation from it is as follows:

"I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick."

Doctors don't give a fuck about serving to benefit patients in the best manner. What they really care about nowadays, is staying in practice as long as they can without overstepping any boundary even slightly, which might cause them to lose their licence. I understand that this is in part caused by overregulation by the government, but when it comes down to it, a doctor should be willing to do whatever it takes to serve society in the best way possible. If you're not willing to take what seems to be the slightest of chances in prescribing at your own will, then don't become a fucking doctor.

Their focus should be to do the best for not only the patient, but for the benefit of those around them and the life that they live. For example, my first real relationship with a girl was ruined in part because I could not stand to go be in public, as it makes me too anxious. Who the fuck wants that from a man? My current relationship is also on a rocky road because of the same reasons. My anxiety has increasingly caused me to isolate myself, and sit around wondering what I could be doing all day if I was normal. I've also strived my whole life excelling in schoolwork, but what good is this going to do if I cannot fucking communicate with another human being effectively? I feel as if my dreams are diminishing every day.

Something that is despicable and deplorable to me, is that basically both of the psychiatrists I've been to have treated me as if I am being silly, or not making sense. Literally one of the psychiatrists was smirking at me as I explained my anguish, and the other replied in a manner that showed me he was not hearing a word I said. The way I have been treated by doctors has lead me to not trust them.

How successful at SERVING TO BENEFIT SOCIETY does the medical profession look, if so many people, in similar shoes to mine, are mistreated to the point that they develop a deeply held MISTRUST for the entire profession.

And the fact that some people abuse medications, well WHO GIVES A FUCK. So fucking be it. That sounds like a necessary side effect to the main effect of saving lives. Are you going to ban the sale of vehicles, just because some people drive irresponsibly? Anyways, that's a political issue and for another argument.

To be honest, I really don't even give a fuck if the medication is a benzo, or a fucking magic potion from the 7th dimension, as long as it fucking works. If the cure for my problem was smoking plastic, then I would fucking smoke plastic every day to live life anxiety free, even if it knocked down my life expectancy 30 years. My problem has been getting worse and worse every day, and it's taking a toll on me. For example, today in the computer lab two girls started giggling. Jesus Christ I spent the next 30 fucking minutes sweating my ass off thinking that everyone was staring at me.

Even though I probably shouldn't have, I became proactive a few years ago at what I called "prescribing myself." I didn't buy benzos to get high (btw, who the fuck gets high from benzos? the only "high" I get is the giddiness of being able to socialize), I bought them to allow me to succeed in life (presentations, networking, and such). My god the way people around me noticed...even my own mother, who strongly disapproved, told me I was a brand new, happier, more comfortable looking person.


I really feel for you man.

My anxiety isn't/wasn't maybe QUITE as bad as yours but I'd been on Klonopin and it helped me IMMENSELY till I was forced to get off of it which was really wrong.

Luckily in my case I am finding that Lexapro seems to MOSTLY be taking care of the majority of my anxiety yet I STILL want to have some access to as needed Klonopin JUST IN CASE I have a panic situation like I have in the past but no one will prescribe it so either I'm just going to have to try to deal without it or search EVERYWHERE until I find someone who will prescribe it.

However, unlike you I don't need it nearly as badly.

In your shoes I'd just start calling psychiatrist after psychiatrist and I'd think that eventually SOMEONE would prescribe them.

How many different doctors have you talked to?

Have you tried general practitioners?

Have you tried neurologists?

A neurologist was my last prescriber for my Klonopin so maybe going that route will work for you.


And the bold part REALLY pisses me off and I think you should do whatever necessary to let people know to avoid that doctor.

Sorry that just really makes me angry and I'd like to see that guy pay.

I once had a psychiatrist say in so many words that he wouldn't give me benzos cause I might get in a car accident from being sedated and he might lose his license but he basically admitted that he was more concerned with that than me getting injured.

He also suggested that I might be psychotic and think that people were following me in their cars because I was worried they might be staring at me which as you probably realize is a whole different level of craziness.

I heard you say you were considering Etizolam and I've never tried it but now I'm wondering about it for myself.

The problem is that if I (or you) try a med on our own we could end up addicted since we don't know the right dosage and I'd be concerned with that.

It's really just fucked.

Good luck.


Oh, by the way, i was just wondering, why don't you try to go see the psychiatrist that prescribes your girlfriend her benzos and see if he might prescribe them for you??

I mean, he's obviously not opposed to prescribing them in general so my guess is he'd prescribe them to you as well.

The trick seems to be to find a doctor who is not opposed to prescribing them for people in general as it SEEMS that usually they are either black or white in that they either refuse to prescribe them EVER or they are open to them.

I guess there could be doctors who might turn down some people if they say the wrong thing and say yes to others, but I'd guess you'd have a good shot with any doc who prescribes them.

Had you ever considered talking to that doctor?
 
You need to first have a good amount of money; and go see as many different psychiatrist as you can, you need to pay your visits in cash. It can cost you thousands of dollars before you find a psychiatrist willing to prescribe you a little bit klonopin. You also need to be willing to drive up to 1-2 hours to said Doctor.

Fucking LOL@ at a General Practitioner MD giving you benzo'z, NO, JUST NO. Your fucking insurance doctor is not going to give you benzo'z.
 
Mycophile, I 100% agree that the word to describe these situations is INFURIATING with capital letters.
Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath, and a quotation from it is as follows:

"I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick."

Doctors don't give a fuck about serving to benefit patients in the best manner. What they really care about nowadays, is staying in practice as long as they can without overstepping any boundary even slightly, which might cause them to lose their licence. I understand that this is in part caused by overregulation by the government, but when it comes down to it, a doctor should be willing to do whatever it takes to serve society in the best way possible. If you're not willing to take what seems to be the slightest of chances in prescribing at your own will, then don't become a fucking doctor.

Their focus should be to do the best for not only the patient, but for the benefit of those around them and the life that they live. For example, my first real relationship with a girl was ruined in part because I could not stand to go be in public, as it makes me too anxious. Who the fuck wants that from a man? My current relationship is also on a rocky road because of the same reasons. My anxiety has increasingly caused me to isolate myself, and sit around wondering what I could be doing all day if I was normal. I've also strived my whole life excelling in schoolwork, but what good is this going to do if I cannot fucking communicate with another human being effectively? I feel as if my dreams are diminishing every day.

Something that is despicable and deplorable to me, is that basically both of the psychiatrists I've been to have treated me as if I am being silly, or not making sense. Literally one of the psychiatrists was smirking at me as I explained my anguish, and the other replied in a manner that showed me he was not hearing a word I said. The way I have been treated by doctors has lead me to not trust them.

How successful at SERVING TO BENEFIT SOCIETY does the medical profession look, if so many people, in similar shoes to mine, are mistreated to the point that they develop a deeply held MISTRUST for the entire profession.

And the fact that some people abuse medications, well WHO GIVES A FUCK. So fucking be it. That sounds like a necessary side effect to the main effect of saving lives. Are you going to ban the sale of vehicles, just because some people drive irresponsibly? Anyways, that's a political issue and for another argument.

To be honest, I really don't even give a fuck if the medication is a benzo, or a fucking magic potion from the 7th dimension, as long as it fucking works. If the cure for my problem was smoking plastic, then I would fucking smoke plastic every day to live life anxiety free, even if it knocked down my life expectancy 30 years. My problem has been getting worse and worse every day, and it's taking a toll on me. For example, today in the computer lab two girls started giggling. Jesus Christ I spent the next 30 fucking minutes sweating my ass off thinking that everyone was staring at me.

Even though I probably shouldn't have, I became proactive a few years ago at what I called "prescribing myself." I didn't buy benzos to get high (btw, who the fuck gets high from benzos? the only "high" I get is the giddiness of being able to socialize), I bought them to allow me to succeed in life (presentations, networking, and such). My god the way people around me noticed...even my own mother, who strongly disapproved, told me I was a brand new, happier, more comfortable looking person.

LOL dude, in a few years all of those positive benefits will go away. Benzo'z for shit like standing in a grocery line without feeling nervous/College powerpoint presentation, is not what they are for.

People have random panic attacks which induce a feeling of having your heart explode. That is what Xanax is for. Not because you feel embarrassed or feel nervous talking to random people in public

I started with 0.5mg of Xanax and worked my way up to 8-12mg a fucking day. It took about two years to get there, maybe three.

I'm a strong believer in shitty benzo'z like Valium 5mg/10mg doses. But 2mg Xanax bars are fucking brutal, and will fucking own you.
 
LOL dude, in a few years all of those positive benefits will go away. Benzo'z for shit like standing in a grocery line without feeling nervous/College powerpoint presentation, is not what they are for.

People have random panic attacks which induce a feeling of having your heart explode. That is what Xanax is for. Not because you feel embarrassed or feel nervous talking to random people in public


I disagree.

I took Klonopin for 11 years and it never stopped working.

It worked for social anxiety both severe and extreme, everything extreme panic attacks to talking in front of a class to standing in a grocery line.
 
I disagree.

I took Klonopin for 11 years and it never stopped working.

It worked for social anxiety both severe and extreme, everything extreme panic attacks to talking in front of a class to standing in a grocery line.





The "confidence boost" will not work forever in therapeutic daily doses. Will it prevent an elevated heart rate and clammy hands/sweating? Sure. But that awesome "I don't give a fuck if this chick turns me down" feeling will fade. At least, it did for me anyways.
 
I really feel for you man.

My anxiety isn't/wasn't maybe QUITE as bad as yours but I'd been on Klonopin and it helped me IMMENSELY till I was forced to get off of it which was really wrong.

Luckily in my case I am finding that Lexapro seems to MOSTLY be taking care of the majority of my anxiety yet I STILL want to have some access to as needed Klonopin JUST IN CASE I have a panic situation like I have in the past but no one will prescribe it so either I'm just going to have to try to deal without it or search EVERYWHERE until I find someone who will prescribe it.

However, unlike you I don't need it nearly as badly.

In your shoes I'd just start calling psychiatrist after psychiatrist and I'd think that eventually SOMEONE would prescribe them.

How many different doctors have you talked to?

Have you tried general practitioners?

Have you tried neurologists?

A neurologist was my last prescriber for my Klonopin so maybe going that route will work for you.


And the bold part REALLY pisses me off and I think you should do whatever necessary to let people know to avoid that doctor.

Sorry that just really makes me angry and I'd like to see that guy pay.

I once had a psychiatrist say in so many words that he wouldn't give me benzos cause I might get in a car accident from being sedated and he might lose his license but he basically admitted that he was more concerned with that than me getting injured.

He also suggested that I might be psychotic and think that people were following me in their cars because I was worried they might be staring at me which as you probably realize is a whole different level of craziness.

I heard you say you were considering Etizolam and I've never tried it but now I'm wondering about it for myself.

The problem is that if I (or you) try a med on our own we could end up addicted since we don't know the right dosage and I'd be concerned with that.

It's really just fucked.

Good luck.


Oh, by the way, i was just wondering, why don't you try to go see the psychiatrist that prescribes your girlfriend her benzos and see if he might prescribe them for you??

I mean, he's obviously not opposed to prescribing them in general so my guess is he'd prescribe them to you as well.

The trick seems to be to find a doctor who is not opposed to prescribing them for people in general as it SEEMS that usually they are either black or white in that they either refuse to prescribe them EVER or they are open to them.

I guess there could be doctors who might turn down some people if they say the wrong thing and say yes to others, but I'd guess you'd have a good shot with any doc who prescribes them.

Had you ever considered talking to that doctor?

This might be irrational, but I've kind of been offput by trying out her specific doctor because she actually talks to her, as in like therapy sessions. I kind of assume he knows my first name at least, from these conversations, and who knows, maybe she's told him about my search to be anxiety free and how it's caused her so much anxiety that she needs a xanax and ativan script for herself...lmfao
Anyways, I guess it wouldn't really matter, would it? I'm gonna test it out, because what's the worst that could happen? All he could say is "aren't you ____'s boyfriend?" That's literally it. And on top of that, he can't even legally say that, as it's against privacy standards. I just asked her now what his name is.

Lol here's a funny story: I actually did write a review for that doctor. It got deleted after like a month...pretty fucking suspicious. My guess is that it was because it was the only review for that doctor, and had a 1/2 star rating out of 5. Also, I'll admit, maybe I went a bit overboard in the review.

Anyways, I've never heard of seeing a neurologist for such a thing. I'm definitely going to check that out, but if you don't mind me asking, how did it come about that you started seeing a neurologist for this issue?

Isn't it kind of sad that people like me and you are willing to live life anxiety free so badly that we would buy unregulated research chemicals off the web? And on top of that, someone like me getting addicted to oxymorphone. It might sound like some sort of cop-out, but I got addicted to oxymorphone on purpose. It was just so damn cheap and treated my anxiety so well, it provided a multiple month period of my life where I was mainly anxiety free. The thing most might find odd, is that it was literally one day that I said to myself, "wow the per-day cost of this drug is so much cheaper than klonopin and xanax. I'm going to buy it today and it will be the thing that I use every day to help myself." I sure am pretty glad I abandoned that idea though. I guess if you go into an addiction logically, you can get out easily?

That's some absurd fucking shit your doctor said about not prescribing benzos. You would think you're on a physician's version of "Pranked."
Also, I've seen 2 psychiatrists, 1 psychologist, and 2 GP's about this issue. My GP is the only one who is remotely empathetic, as he is a bit of a "family acquaintance." I actually am making arangements at trying my shot at him. He's the one that gave me the Lexapro and Buspirone. That's really awesome that you respond well to Lexapro dude, good for you! I wish I was as forturnate, it made me lose 8 pounds (I'm already skinny enough) and it made me become an extremely agitated, aggressive person. Buspirone on the other hand, like I said, no effect whatsoever.

I know I said I had no money really, but I'm sure with a lot of nagging I can convince my mom to pay for this psychiatrist my gf has. Of course I won't tell her that though.
 
The "confidence boost" will not work forever in therapeutic daily doses. Will it prevent an elevated heart rate and clammy hands/sweating? Sure. But that awesome "I don't give a fuck if this chick turns me down" feeling will fade. At least, it did for me anyways.

Well I never personally got the effect you are talking about even in the beginning cause I was on a low dose...if you are saying you got this feeling were you just didn't give a shit at all about rejection and things like that, basically like a high effect? Kind of like if you were really shit faced or something?

Yeah, I never got high from Klonopin at all, I just felt normal and felt less anxious than before.

I don't think he's looking to feel high or super confident but rather just not to have so much anxiety and to feel basically normal.
 
LOL dude, in a few years all of those positive benefits will go away. Benzo'z for shit like standing in a grocery line without feeling nervous/College powerpoint presentation, is not what they are for.

People have random panic attacks which induce a feeling of having your heart explode. That is what Xanax is for. Not because you feel embarrassed or feel nervous talking to random people in public

I started with 0.5mg of Xanax and worked my way up to 8-12mg a fucking day. It took about two years to get there, maybe three.

I'm a strong believer in shitty benzo'z like Valium 5mg/10mg doses. But 2mg Xanax bars are fucking brutal, and will fucking own you.

As this isn't really a self-written biography, I haven't really mentioned every single negative experience that I have. I will just inform you that I did not mention that I do get full-blown panic attacks, although mostly only monthly due to a culmination of stress/anxiety. I get mini episodes about once daily, consisting of the usual symptoms except a bit less intense. Also, I have a problem with episodes of sleep paralysis, but I won't say that has anything to do with my anxiety. I know I just seem like some college kid with social anxiety from what I have posted, but I'll just leave it at there's much more weight on my shoulders than that, the kind of weight/stress people my age shouldn't be experiencing.
I definitely wouldn't mind a less powerful benzo like Valium, as long as it helped me deal with my anxiety, and freed up my time to focus on my other responsibilities in life. Also, just my 2 cents:
You should never, ever, marginalize another person's mental health concerns, especially while they are trying to look for help. You will never know the full story of the going-on's of another person's mind.
 
Well I never personally got the effect you are talking about even in the beginning cause I was on a low dose...if you are saying you got this feeling were you just didn't give a shit at all about rejection and things like that, basically like a high effect? Kind of like if you were really shit faced or something?

Yeah, I never got high from Klonopin at all, I just felt normal and felt less anxious than before.

I don't think he's looking to feel high or super confident but rather just not to have so much anxiety and to feel basically normal.


That's why I edited my earlier post, Klonopin just gave me the munchies and made me feel "neutral" I never got high from my 2mg dose, either. I don't get high high from my nightly dose of 10mg valium either. It's basically taking a 0.25mg of Xanax slow release.


The thing is, Mycophile, Xanax{Alprazolam} causes an amazing amount of euphoria in some users. I got an amazing feeling on Xanax. Like, the best high I have ever felt, to be honest. I never got this with Kpins, but at the same time, I never abused Kpins, because I never had the full bottle to myself. My girl dispensed it to me every 6 hours.
 
This might be irrational, but I've kind of been offput by trying out her specific doctor because she actually talks to her, as in like therapy sessions. I kind of assume he knows my first name at least, from these conversations, and who knows, maybe she's told him about my search to be anxiety free and how it's caused her so much anxiety that she needs a xanax and ativan script for herself...lmfao
Anyways, I guess it wouldn't really matter, would it? I'm gonna test it out, because what's the worst that could happen? All he could say is "aren't you ____'s boyfriend?" That's literally it. And on top of that, he can't even legally say that, as it's against privacy standards. I just asked her now what his name is.

Lol here's a funny story: I actually did write a review for that doctor. It got deleted after like a month...pretty fucking suspicious. My guess is that it was because it was the only review for that doctor, and had a 1/2 star rating out of 5. Also, I'll admit, maybe I went a bit overboard in the review.

Anyways, I've never heard of seeing a neurologist for such a thing. I'm definitely going to check that out, but if you don't mind me asking, how did it come about that you started seeing a neurologist for this issue?

Isn't it kind of sad that people like me and you are willing to live life anxiety free so badly that we would buy unregulated research chemicals off the web? And on top of that, someone like me getting addicted to oxymorphone. It might sound like some sort of cop-out, but I got addicted to oxymorphone on purpose. It was just so damn cheap and treated my anxiety so well, it provided a multiple month period of my life where I was mainly anxiety free. The thing most might find odd, is that it was literally one day that I said to myself, "wow the per-day cost of this drug is so much cheaper than klonopin and xanax. I'm going to buy it today and it will be the thing that I use every day to help myself." I sure am pretty glad I abandoned that idea though. I guess if you go into an addiction logically, you can get out easily?

That's some absurd fucking shit your doctor said about not prescribing benzos. You would think you're on a physician's version of "Pranked."
Also, I've seen 2 psychiatrists, 1 psychologist, and 2 GP's about this issue. My GP is the only one who is remotely empathetic, as he is a bit of a "family acquaintance." I actually am making arangements at trying my shot at him. He's the one that gave me the Lexapro and Buspirone. That's really awesome that you respond well to Lexapro dude, good for you! I wish I was as forturnate, it made me lose 8 pounds (I'm already skinny enough) and it made me become an extremely agitated, aggressive person. Buspirone on the other hand, like I said, no effect whatsoever.

I know I said I had no money really, but I'm sure with a lot of nagging I can convince my mom to pay for this psychiatrist my gf has. Of course I won't tell her that though.


Yeah I can understand how you might feel if that psychiatrist figured out you were his patient's boyfriend but if he's a real professional it will make no difference and he will see you as just any other patient and really, if you are suffering from as much anxiety as you say than I'd think that those would be pretty small details in comparison to having to go on feeling like you are feeling.

I mean nothing worse can come of it than him turning you down or maybe I guess it's possible he could know a couple things that your girlfriend told him about you but who cares?

Maybe if you literally had your choice of different docs to prescribe you benzos you'd try someone else instead of him but if he's your only option you don't really have the luxury of picking and choosing so I would just go for it and I bet you'll be able to get a benzo prescription.

I started seeing a neurologist for my issue because this was many years ago and I was seeing a therapist who recommended him to me.

I also took Buspar and it did absolutely nothing for me.

It really is messed up that people with real anxiety have to resort to getting things online for these issues but that's the position stupid doctors put us in and it's really wrong.

Have you ever tried Kratom?

It's addictive if you take it more than a couple days a week but I've found that it helps with my social anxiety also so it could be a good thing to have on hand.
 
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That's why I edited my earlier post, Klonopin just gave me the munchies and made me feel "neutral" I never got high from my 2mg dose, either. I don't get high high from my nightly dose of 10mg valium either. It's basically taking a 0.25mg of Xanax slow release.


The thing is, Mycophile, Xanax{Alprazolam} causes an amazing amount of euphoria in some users. I got an amazing feeling on Xanax. Like, the best high I have ever felt, to be honest. I never got this with Kpins, but at the same time, I never abused Kpins, because I never had the full bottle to myself. My girl dispensed it to me every 6 hours.

Yeah I've never tried Xanax and I would kind of like to.

Klonopin's the only benzo I've ever done other than Valium just one time so that's why I'm always confused when people say they get high off benzos cause it never did that for me but after talking to more people I've realized that Xanax is different from Klonopin in that way.
 
As this isn't really a self-written biography, I haven't really mentioned every single negative experience that I have. I will just inform you that I did not mention that I do get full-blown panic attacks, although mostly only monthly due to a culmination of stress/anxiety. I get mini episodes about once daily, consisting of the usual symptoms except a bit less intense. Also, I have a problem with episodes of sleep paralysis, but I won't say that has anything to do with my anxiety. I know I just seem like some college kid with social anxiety from what I have posted, but I'll just leave it at there's much more weight on my shoulders than that, the kind of weight/stress people my age shouldn't be experiencing.
I definitely wouldn't mind a less powerful benzo like Valium, as long as it helped me deal with my anxiety, and freed up my time to focus on my other responsibilities in life. Also, just my 2 cents:
You should never, ever, marginalize another person's mental health concerns, especially while they are trying to look for help. You will never know the full story of the going-on's of another person's mind.

I never marginalize, but I was in the same position as you, ENVIOUS of people who had Xanax prescriptions. I was tired of buying a "strip"
I'm not here to argue with you, that's like arguing with someone who has had back surgery and now needs Oxycontin on a daily basis, but he can't get a script for anything except Tramadol.

Like I told you before, be prepared to spend about $1000 in first visits ranging in the $100-$200 range.

>Do not give tips on how to manipulate doctors<
 
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I gotcha.
I believe you when it comes to the pay cash/long search for the right doctor thing.
But since I don't have that liberty, I'm just going to do everything I can to avoid that. Lol at least later in life I'll be banking so much that it wouldn't be so much for me. On top of that, in the field I'm going into, employers provide awesome health care, and don't look down on you for visits of these kind, as it's not too uncommon that people in this field get their doctors to medicate them to whatever extent they ask for. Makes for better employees lol, not many people could work in the field without having at least one drug/alcohol related vice.


Your going to need to do everything you can to "do that/pay cash" and not avoid it.

When I was prescribed Xanax I had to do a drug test, to make sure I was not on any recreational drugs. I hate to assume, but if you do not have a few hundred dollars to spend on Psychiatrist visits than most likely you will need to cop your shit from other people.

If you feel that a daily benzo prescription will turn your life around, you will find the time to go to different psychiatrist, even if it means spending thousands, and spending a few months going to different doctors.

If you do everything you can to avoid paying cash for visits; you are going to depend on illegal purchases for the rest of your life.

Maybe you can get lucky and find a psychiatrist that accepts your insurance, after you telling him that Buspar does not work, and that after two or three months of SSRI medication he will throw in the towel and give you something.

EDIT: I stayed sober for three months so that I can piss clean, and lo and behold the second psychistarist I visted drugtested me and than prescribed me Klonopin on the
fly.

That's how bad I wanted a fucking benzo script.
 
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You need to first have a good amount of money; and go see as many different psychiatrist as you can, you need to pay your visits in cash. It can cost you thousands of dollars before you find a psychiatrist willing to prescribe you a little bit klonopin. You also need to be willing to drive up to 1-2 hours to said Doctor.

Fucking LOL@ at a General Practitioner MD giving you benzo'z, NO, JUST NO. Your fucking insurance doctor is not going to give you benzo'z.

The first benzo script I ever got (xanax) came from a simple walk in clinic. Had a ten minute talk with a doctor, she wrote the script, I filled it at the pharmacy next to the clinic. My insurance covered the visit so I got that script for free.

This happened in Texas, though, and it may be quite different for the op
 
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