Methamphetamine Discussion Thread 3.0

[tweak_chef]

Crystal meth is the perfect destructive drug – it's easy to make, cheap to buy, highly addictive and it's everywhere. 60 Minutes investigates the true toll of the ice crisis.

Story aired last night on 60minutes....

http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/videoindex.aspx

You got one part of that wrong, its not everywhere. I was a meth-user before. I actually thought I had it good mixing my work and hiding my activities just to make the work days run smooth. Yes, it is destructive, yes its cheap and highly addictive. Is it everywhere? Good for me, Ive moved to a different place, where I there is no meth around. I mean literally no meth here. And Im sober for 2 years, but the trauma still haunts me.

 

[footscrazy]

The substance is estimated to be around half as addictive as heroin (based on percentage of users who become dependent) and it's considered to be the fourth most addictive commonly used substance.

I think a difficulty with statements such as this is how subjective words like 'dependent' or 'addicted' can be. I suppose it's easier to draw a line between recreational and dependent opiate users because of the physical addiction, but with something like methamphetamine it's more difficult. I don't think dependence can be qualified simply by how much someone uses - I think it's more accurately based on other factors, such as how much it occupies one's thoughts, how it affects your quality of life, or what other activities fall by the wayside in preference of the drug. Probably the best definition of addiction I've seen is that it's a state of ambivalence - of recognising the negative impacts your use is having and wanting to stop, but at the same time deeply desiring the effects the drug provides - the high or the comfort or escape or whatever it is. Addiction is more of a scale than a line you cross so I think it's impossible to ever really say in cold hard facts, this is the percentage of users that are, or will become dependent/addicted.

It's not to say that I think stats don't have their place, as they do help to paint a picture. I just think comparing the 'addictiveness' of substances or even addictions between different people is only of limited use, as its based on a user's personal perception of their situation, rather than something qualitative like amount used per day or week.

 

[the_ketaman]

I completely disagree with all this "X drug is 4th on the list of drugs"

I have had proper habits with meth, heroin/oxy/morphine, weed, all sorts of benzos. And in my case while I prefer heroin, methamphetamine is a psychological addiction not comparable to anything ive ever used.

I used IV opiates for 8 years and was sickly addicted. People were expecting me dead at 21 through either malnutrition or OD. But I survived that only to become a daily meth user for 12 months, smoking but mostly IV & during that time I got convicted for 3 assaults. I first smoked ice at 16 and managed pretty irregular use even after I IV'd it at 17. I used every 2-3 months for years. Then one day(I was 22-23) I woke up & just began using every day, multiple times a day. A lot too.

I never got violent on opiates, I never did crime either but meth changed me.II'd leave used syringes around, I became very emotionally and mentally unstable, abusive. I felt noticeably dumber. V

 

[SixBuckets]

I think a difficulty with statements such as this is how subjective words like 'dependent' or 'addicted' can be. I suppose it's easier to draw a line between recreational and dependent opiate users because of the physical addiction, but with something like methamphetamine it's more difficult.

The estimation of 'percentage of users who become dependent' isn't based on measuring physical dependency, though - it's based on percentage of users who go on to use at a rate that will induce dependency in the average human. These stats likely capture some frequent users who (for whatever reason) aren't physically dependent, as well as excluding some less frequent users who experience physical dependency, but I'm guessing it all balances out.

I don't think dependence can be qualified simply by how much someone uses - I think it's more accurately based on other factors, such as how much it occupies one's thoughts, how it affects your quality of life, or what other activities fall by the wayside in preference of the drug.

Well, no, 'substance dependence' refers to physical changes that occur in the brain. What you're describing is addiction, not dependency. You're right, though, that substance dependency is usually assessed via verbal reporting, rather than any specific tests to the brain (because how awful would it be if you needed your brain examined before received drug treatment??).

Probably the best definition of addiction I've seen is that it's a state of ambivalence - of recognising the negative impacts your use is having and wanting to stop, but at the same time deeply desiring the effects the drug provides - the high or the comfort or escape or whatever it is. Addiction is more of a scale than a line you cross so I think it's impossible to ever really say in cold hard facts, this is the percentage of users that are, or will become dependent/addicted.

What we find when we study usage patterns of addictive substances is that there's a big jump at around monthly usage. With methamphetamine, for example: as I said, around 90% of people will never use more than monthly. However, of the people who use more than monthly, around a quarter use daily or every day. Does that make sense? There's a similar pattern with many other addictive substances.

It's not to say that I think stats don't have their place, as they do help to paint a picture. I just think comparing the 'addictiveness' of substances or even addictions between different people is only of limited use, as its based on a user's personal perception of their situation, rather than something qualitative like amount used per day or week.

I disagree that these stats come from user's personal perceptions and am happy to discuss the methodology of these studies a little further, if you're interested. They use a variety of assessment methods, but tend to land on pretty similar numbers.

 

[SixBuckets]

I completely disagree with all this "X drug is 4th on the list of drugs"

I have had proper habits with meth, heroin/oxy/morphine, weed, all sorts of benzos. And in my case while I prefer heroin, methamphetamine is a psychological addiction not comparable to anything ive ever used.

I used IV opiates for 8 years and was sickly addicted. People were expecting me dead at 21 through either malnutrition or OD. But I survived that only to become a daily meth user for 12 months, smoking but mostly IV & during that time I got convicted for 3 assaults. I first smoked ice at 16 and managed pretty irregular use even after I IV'd it at 17. I used every 2-3 months for years. Then one day(I was 22-23) I woke up & just began using every day, multiple times a day. A lot too.

I never got violent on opiates, I never did crime either but meth changed me.II'd leave used syringes around, I became very emotionally and mentally unstable, abusive. I felt noticeably dumber. V

I'm sorry you had that experience, but I don't see how your experience contradicts the data?

 

[Crankinit]

Data is never perfect and is easily twisted towards the ends of the individual conducting the experiment, and addiction is an rather subjective and personal manifestation of a multitude of socioeconomic, psychological, neurological and environmental factors.

 

[SixBuckets]

Data is never perfect and is easily twisted towards the ends of the individual conducting the experiment, and addiction is an rather subjective and personal manifestation of a multitude of socioeconomic, psychological, neurological and environmental factors.

Yes, but the reasons behind addiction (or the motivations of the people conducting the data) don't change the reporting of frequency of use? The only real methodological factor I can see influencing the outcome is where the respondents were sourced from, which is why the 'fourth most addictive' figure is taken from meta-analysis of existing research. (ie various studies of various populations agree that opiates/opioids, nicotine and benzodiazapines are more addictive than methamphetamine). I mean, if you're going to throw out the research that says we can rank substances by their statistical link to addiction and dependency, then you're also saying we can't use the data that says things like "crystal methamphetamine is more addictive than the powder form" or "marijuana is widely used, but does not commonly cause depdendency".

 

[canberracrack]

Its no coincidence that meth induces rampant paranoia in the majority of its users. In addition to paranoia though, heavy use heightens ones senses to the point of creating a sixth sense in some. I can tell what people are thinking from the looks on their face, their body language and their tone of voice. You realise how meaningless words truly are, communication is all non verbal as far as I'm concerned.

My dealers been smoking ice everyday since 2006, and he has a little sense that goes off in his head when people talk about him behind his back, or if they are in the same room it reveals their thoughts if they are negative. Sounds wacky but he's adamant its right every single time, plus I've seen it in action. There was still a fair bit left in the pipe, when this one guy was using it, and he tried to say it had all burnt up and the pipe was cracked, no good he said. He casually left the pipe next to him on the couch and said look for the other one.My dealer was up in an instant,he knew the guy was lying and planned to pocket the pipe later.

 

[canberracrack]

also how much does everyone load into their pipe at a time? I used to only do small amounts like 1/4 point but then i tried : putting a whole point in at a time, melt it down and spread it ALL around the pipe, then let it crack back, then melt it down again, and putting the lighter up very close under the pipe without lighting it, like I'm talking virtually touching it, then lighting it up and twirling the pipe around on the blue flame for a few seconds, then just twirling as fast as i possibly can, repeat once it stops smoking but then giving it a break and letting it crack bak before it gets too hot. the tokes i get off this method are insane, i blow out masses of smoke and get insanely high.

My dealer often puts in like 1.5 or 2 whole points and either smokes normally or does it this way, and I've never seen anyone get as high as that cunt.

 

[realtalkloc]

My dealers been smoking ice everyday since 2006, and he has a little sense that goes off in his head when people talk about him behind his back, or if they are in the same room it reveals their thoughts if they are negative. Sounds wacky but he's adamant its right every single time, plus I've seen it in action. There was still a fair bit left in the pipe, when this one guy was using it, and he tried to say it had all burnt up and the pipe was cracked, no good he said. He casually left the pipe next to him on the couch and said look for the other one.My dealer was up in an instant,he knew the guy was lying and planned to pocket the pipe later.

ok calm down. Your dealer is suffering from nothing more than paranoia from prolonged meth use. Anyone smoking meth for over a decade will have a host of mental issues to deal with. Stop looking up to him, he's lost it and you may have also.

 

[Crankinit]

Yeah meth does a lot of things, but granting you psychic powers isn't one of them. When you combine a fiendish drug and paranoia, you're going to get plenty of occurrences where the paranoia turns out to be correct.

 

[smokedup]

Obviously being stimulated means u pick up on subtle characteristics of ppl and can really engage with them on another level than what u would sober. Its like my mate said u see 100 different sides to a person. They were always there, but only until u got on u noticed these things.

tried iv for the second time and can categorically say the pipe is the most fiendish and addictive. I still want the pipe even after feeling that g force rush iv gives.

 

[canberracrack]

ok calm down. Your dealer is suffering from nothing more than paranoia from prolonged meth use. Anyone smoking meth for over a decade will have a host of mental issues to deal with. Stop looking up to him, he's lost it and you may have also.

Nah, he's pretty together man. Owns 3 cars, a dog, a missus plus 2 kids with a 3rd on the way. And I'm pretty switched on too. The only time i really lost it was when we were sitting in this car toking and smoking cones, and some fuckwit was shining a hunting light at us and i thought it was a police helicopter. but that was understandable given the intensity of this light like holy shit.

 

[canberracrack]

just hot rocked 0.8 and I'm flying like superman on a sunday!!!!!!! anyone got thoughts on how much they put in!!

 

[motiv311]

all i can say is that here in america its a real problem....

its cheap and its good , and I never wanted to be this way; I always read about how addictive drugs were and meth was.... I thought I could somehow just "deal with it" .... and in many ways I am... I do well at work , i enjoy my life mostly... but I am not that normal and find intrest in knowledge and learning and songwriting....

i was put on adderall at age 10.... and became heavily dependent on adderal by age 15 or so..... When i first tried meth i LOVED it, now I really don't care what the stimulant is as long as it works.... I sleep tons and dream lots; i try to stop it but I can't really function without it, never could.... Its like i revert to being 10 again without a real ego/identity to rely on

 

[canberracrack]

all i can say is that here in america its a real problem....

its cheap and its good , and I never wanted to be this way; I always read about how addictive drugs were and meth was.... I thought I could somehow just "deal with it" .... and in many ways I am... I do well at work , i enjoy my life mostly... but I am not that normal and find intrest in knowledge and learning and songwriting....

i was put on adderall at age 10.... and became heavily dependent on adderal by age 15 or so..... When i first tried meth i LOVED it, now I really don't care what the stimulant is as long as it works.... I sleep tons and dream lots; i try to stop it but I can't really function without it, never could.... Its like i revert to being 10 again without a real ego/identity to rely on

How much do you guys put in the pipe at once?? And straight pipes vs 45 degree angled ones what your verdict? Ive seen americans in docos using straight ones mainly

 

[Crankinit]

Back in the day I spent ages trying to get my hands on a straight one since I'm left handed... only to break it before I could ever smoke out of it. So I can't really compare

tried iv for the second time and can categorically say the pipe is the most fiendish and addictive. I still want the pipe even after feeling that g force rush iv gives.

Yeah there's something incredibly fun about smoking drugs by vaping them in a glass pipe like that. I'd take all of my drugs that way if I could

 

[Christ!]

My dealers been smoking ice everyday since 2006, and he has a little sense that goes off in his head when people talk about him behind his back, or if they are in the same room it reveals their thoughts if they are negative. Sounds wacky but he's adamant its right every single time, plus I've seen it in action. There was still a fair bit left in the pipe, when this one guy was using it, and he tried to say it had all burnt up and the pipe was cracked, no good he said. He casually left the pipe next to him on the couch and said look for the other one.My dealer was up in an instant,he knew the guy was lying and planned to pocket the pipe later.

Nuh. Hang around him long enough and you'll see it's not always correct. It's probably true that someone on a stimulant picks up on more subtle information than those who are sober but above a certain dose they also get way more false positives. I'd rather miss things than back myself 100% to the extreme on more things that aren't true.

I'm sure most who've used stims have thought things when spun that have you 'what the fuck was I thinking' when sober.

 

[realtalkloc]

Nuh. Hang around him long enough and you'll see it's not always correct. It's probably true that someone on a stimulant picks up on more subtle information than those who are sober but above a certain dose they also get way more false positives.

Yeah but this guy owns 3 cars and a dog so he must always be right

 

[motiv311]

we use straight ones... and angled ones for using / making a bong with.... we put in maybe .05 to .1 at once.... it really just depends on how thick you want your hits, and how much you have to work with.... if your with friends you wanna put a lot in, but also you worry that one of them might burn a fat bowl.... so a medium small bowl works fine.... torch it off, repeat