Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[murphythecat]

yes, we clearly are the only species who treat the animals like we do.
by far the most cruel animal on the planet is us because we have the choice to not do so, yet we still do so.
other animals are in survival mode. they cannot take the time to ponder about their diet, we can adn we must.

Sorry Ninae but you are talking out of your arse. How about the simple truth that we are animals living in a terrestrial aquarium where we require nourishment by consuming other living entities. That is what biological life is. One eating another, the transmutation of energy upwards to more complex and refined forms.




Animals farm other animals, we're not the only species that does it. If the animal is treated well and ensured a comfortable existence in exchange for its produce or flesh, how is it any different to any other symbiotic relationship in nature. The animal gets a good existence, gets fed, gets a safe environment to roam around in (obviously industrial practice fails here). Proper farming gives the animals ample freedom.

Besides, what about us? You think we're not being farmed by the establishment? Cities are basically concrete factories to milk humans of their time and energy. Don't see much complaint about that these days..

And despite our pretense at being the 'top dog' it would shock most people to learn we are in fact being farmed by another species, we just can't perceive them with our senses. I wish I could prove that point to people but unfortunately I can't, but I'm certain it's the truth. Not talking about reptilians or anything here, you wont find it printed anywhere. We have our own essence that is valuable to a species higher than us on the chain and the milking takes place most days for people. But no one complains about the process, in fact we revel in it *hint*.



How do you claim to know gods intentions on the matter? I assume you're joking, you don't strike me as a religious person.

As I've stated I don't agree with the suffering of animals in the food production process but it's something I have zero control over. And I'm not going to make my life more difficult and punish myself for something I had nothing to do with in the first place. Forcing me to adapt to toxic circumstances only breeds more toxicity for myself and those I interact with. The problem is squarely on the greedy fucktards in business and government who know exactly what the facts are and continue to force an industry on us we can't change. They undercut the legitimate sources of food and sell us stuff they ripped off from other businesses. Tesco's (UK supermarket) routinely tries to fuck farmers over by undercutting/asking for a stupidly low price on food. I know how they think, and it was confirmed by someone I know who worked in their head office. The supermarkets and industrial processers have a monopoly.

Like I said, when I have more money I will want to buy better produce and support the better practices. My lack of choice does not equal my condoning the bad practices that take place.

 

[What 23]

So you are comfortable basing your entire system on something you likely can't continue yourself without the help of others? Can you synthesize vitamin b-12? Are you a chemist? Have access to growth chambers for chlorella and the means of breaking their protective layers so you can eat it?

I'm not arguing that factory farms and our system... Our entire consumer way of life is littered with "bad karma", that is piling on.

Anyways, you're basically saying that I should depend on other humans and pay them according to a system that is with all of that bad stuff. My bottom philosophy is going to rely on what I can do alone, or reasonably with the help of those around me, off of what comes naturally to the earth. For me, I know how to get what I need, but I don't know how to synthesize vitamins... And I'd prefer eating salmon anyways. Grub worms might pack a good load.

Basically, I don't want to be any more dependent than I have to be on a system that confines me to that system. I want to reduce my dependence. That is where my philosophy lies. Or, that is a true north direction. To have in mind.

 

[murphythecat]

So you are comfortable basing your entire system on something you likely can't continue yourself without the help of others? Can you synthesize vitamin b-12? Are you a chemist? Have access to growth chambers for chlorella and the means of breaking their protective layers so you can eat it?

I'm not arguing that factory farms and our system... Our entire consumer way of life is littered with "bad karma", that is piling on.

Anyways, you're basically saying that I should depend on other humans and pay them according to a system that is with all of that bad stuff. My bottom philosophy is going to rely on what I can do alone, or reasonably with the help of those around me, off of what comes naturally to the earth. For me, I know how to get what I need, but I don't know how to synthesize vitamins... And I'd prefer killing... And eating salmon anyways.

what, B-12 vitamine is the new way of our society to legitimate the need of meat in our diet? never heard of b-12. and ive been living off meat for 2 years and im all good. actually, I evidently look much younger and healthier then most 27 years old.

im not sure I follow your logic here. if you were alone, in nature, good luck killing any animals. you would need tools which you dont have, so you would eat nuts, seeds and fruits.

 

[Ninae]

and ive been living off meat for 2 years

Hah that's nothing. I've been a vegetarian since I was a teenager and both of my sisters stopped when I did. Also, I'm still alive and well.

I didn't need to be a Buddhist to become a vegetaran, it was more inherent.

But, yes, I still get id'd for alcohol and probably will for some time (the lack of sun also helps).

 

[What 23]

You don't even know what b12 is and you are arguing this... Google. If you have only been off of meat for 2 years and eat anything that is processed or fortified (almond milk? Orange juice? Did you say you ate eggs?)... Well one it takes many years up to 20+ for many people to show any big signs of deficiency. We supposedly store a lot from our mothers. Two: eggs have it, and so do fortified drinks and foods.

I spent my childhood finding and sharpinging sticks preparing for a great war. Had I been really hungry or had that been the way of life Im sure I would have hunted with them. It is instinct to hunt.
I didn't naturally gravitate to synthesis of white powders. I didn't make microscopes. I didn't have access to various purified raw materials. But I was frequently within yards of rabbits, squirrels, birds. I could walk 20 minutes and catch a fish. All of this can be done with tools that any human can fabricate. Even their bare hands. Again, I don't possess the skill, and if I did, it could be forgotten, to synthesize vitamins in a lab. But even chimpanzees have been observed sharpening sticks, as weapons for hunting.

I base my direction here.

B-12 is necessary to many of our functions. Our brains don't develop or function right without it. We need it for creation of red blood cells, and a number of other things. It can only be found in, viably, animal sources.

 

[murphythecat]

there, you said it. you dont need meat to have B-12.
about the instinct to hunt. good luck if you only have a stick.
how will you eat the meat, raw? remember, naturally, you dont have fire.

You don't even know what b12 is and you are arguing this... Google. If you have only been off of meat for 2 years and eat anything that is processed or fortified (almond milk? Orange juice? Did you say you ate eggs?)... Well one it takes many years up to 20+ for many people to show any big signs of deficiency. We supposedly store a lot from our mothers. Two: eggs have it, and so do fortified drinks and foods.

I spent my childhood finding and sharpinging sticks preparing for a great war. Had I been really hungry or had that been the way of life Im sure I would have hunted with them. It is instinct to hunt.
I didn't naturally gravitate to synthesis of white powders. I didn't make microscopes. I didn't have access to various purified raw materials.

B-12 is necessary to many of our functions. Our brains don't develop or function right without it. We need it for creation of red blood cells, and a number of other things. It can only be found in, viably, animal sources.

 

[What 23]

Yes, you can get it from milk and eggs. These still require some level of control over these animals. Hens don't just not care when eggs are taken. And I'm allergic to milk anyway, and at any rate it isn't very healthy for people. Eggs, I've been wanting to try them again. Last time I felt horrible.

It is instinct to eat. Part of why we are human, even why we have our complex languages, may be due to hunting behaviors.

Fire is something that I can make in more traditional ways. Everyone can be taught to build a fire. Synthesis of vitamins is a much trickier process, and much more involved. It requires knowledge of many processes, including proper storage for raw materials, continued availability of metals, glass, plastics...

You underestimate humans and their hunting with "sticks" (my sticks could have killed a human, or deer) and spears ability. Jesus.

 

[murphythecat]

of course we have to eat, but you dont have to kill animals to survive.

but you had good tool like knives to make your stick sharp. otherwise, if I were to put you, without any tool, in nature...

yes, you have to be shown how to make a fire, otherwise good luck making fire.

all we have in our society is learned and worst it gives us the illusion that for our only benefit, our health, we can do the most immoral things. worst, we dont even have to do it ourselves. we just know that meat get into our supermarket, that weve been told its good for us, scientific articles has been written to legitimate the necessity of that business and voila, we all accept ourselves, buy meat, and come up with all sorts of illogical excuse to eat meat. survival shouldn't be the excuse of such immoral conducts.

as for vitamins, as far as I know, the synthesis of vitamines isnt hurting anyone. this conversation is about the ethicality of killing animals for our nutriments.

Yes, you can get it from milk and eggs. These still require some level of control over these animals. Hens don't just not care when eggs are taken. And I'm allergic to milk anyway, and at any rate it isn't very healthy for people. Eggs, I've been wanting to try them again. Last time I felt horrible.

It is instinct to eat. Part of why we are human, even why we have our complex languages, may be due to hunting behaviors.

Fire is something that I can make in more traditional ways. Everyone can be taught to build a fire. Synthesis of vitamins is a much trickier process, and much more involved.

You underestimate humans and their hunting with "sticks" (my sticks could have killed a human, or deer) and spears ability. Jesus.

 

[LuGoJ]

Yes, you can get it from milk and eggs. These still require some level of control over these animals. Hens don't just not care when eggs are taken. And I'm allergic to milk anyway, and at any rate it isn't very healthy for people. Eggs, I've been wanting to try them again. Last time I felt horrible.

It is instinct to eat. Part of why we are human, even why we have our complex languages, may be due to hunting behaviors.

Fire is something that I can make in more traditional ways. Everyone can be taught to build a fire. Synthesis of vitamins is a much trickier process, and much more involved.

You underestimate humans and their hunting with "sticks" (my sticks could have killed a human, or deer) and spears ability. Jesus.

Is there anything you aren't allergic to? Besides meat?


I really don't understand why everyone cares so much about what other people eat. I feel like I can't ever go out to dinner without hearing someone go on a tyrade about how terrible meat is, or how terrible vegan eating is, or how terrible paleo eating is.. or you must eat this! and you must eat that! but you better avoid that stuff over there! I think next time that happens at the table I'm going to grab the person by their collar and place my salad fork my steak knife(depending on if i'm veg or carn that day) at their jugular and tell them to worry about their own fucking plate. Maybe a little salt in their eyes too, while i'm at it.

 

[Ninae]

scientific articles has been written to legitimate the necessity of that business and voila, we all accept ourselves, buy

People are naive.

 

[What 23]

Sprouted nuts. Certain berries (golden berries). I am still struggling to discover what I can eat. I hit a big roadblock a couple of years ago.

Murphy... As I child I didn't have a knife. A stick can be sharpened on rocks. And rocks themselves can be broken to make tools. Ever heard of a hand-axe?

Of course, things are taught... But vitamins require professionalism where building a fire doesn't really. Yes it is a skill, but anyone can do it, given time. Making vitamins requires knowledge of materials, solvents, the right temperatures, which require complex instrumentation and industrialization-- electricity.

Basically I am basing my true north on what could continue to exist without higher, wide spread powered human technology. If it came down to it, although cooked meat is preferred, humans can eat raw meat. And raw fish. I find it foolish to base myself, my ethics from what I have to exchange money for.

 

[murphythecat]

simply because that industry have to stop. its a fucking hell for those animals.

fact is, anyone who buys meat encourage that industry and if we were to stop buying meat, that industry would die.

Is there anything you aren't allergic to? Besides meat?


I really don't understand why everyone cares so much about what other people eat. I feel like I can't ever go out to dinner without hearing someone go on a tyrade about how terrible meat is, or how terrible vegan eating is, or how terrible paleo eating is.. or you must eat this! and you must eat that! but you better avoid that stuff over there! I think next time that happens at the table I'm going to grab the person by their collar and place my salad fork my steak knife(depending on if i'm veg or carn that day) at their jugular and tell them to worry about their own fucking plate. Maybe a little salt in their eyes too, while i'm at it.

what23: maybe stop thinking what YOU need and think about what the animals around you need and want.

 

[What 23]

My solution is killing 99+% of human kind.

 

[Ninae]

You first have to mak a difference at the consciousness level for people to stop though. It has to be voluntarily. I know no one can force me to do anything much.

 

[What 23]

what23: maybe stop thinking what YOU need and think about what the animals around you need and want.

I care about animals and life about as much as needed for it to continue, not to say I don't "care" or have empathy. I want balance. I'm actually very gentle with animals, and would be up until the point and even during slitting their throat or driving a knife into their brain/base of their skull to sever their spinal cord or something (to eat).

If it comes down to a meal for my family, or "Think about the deer and what it wants. Think about it's family", or fish, or whatever, I am accepting the gift of my superior place in the food chain and I am eating, with my family. Guiltless.

I eat chicken. It is about the only meat I eat. A raptor would eat me if it could. It wouldn't distinguish me from a little beetle, and it would peck at me, murdering me and eating me.
I don't owe the chicken anything like not eating it because it doesn't want to be eaten, but I am really thankful to God for the meal. I owe myself respect, so I buy organic, and free range, from farms that I can trace. And respect for myself translates to more respect for them.

 

[murphythecat]

or rather stop making babies

My solution is killing 99+% of human kind.

and I understand what you mean what23, but our liberty stop when our desire limit or destroy the desire of others.

 

[ebola?]

b-12 can actually be acquired through some plant-based sources, eg algae. However, just to be safe, I supplemented with b-12 when I was a vegan. I have no problems ingesting synthetic things. I use msg as a table-seasoning, lol.

ebola

 

[Ninae]

This "superior place in the foodchain" stuff is more something that's been invented to appeal to our egos and defend the meat industry.

 

[murphythecat]

maybe we should simply look at the consequence of killing another being. all the feeling oyu need to have to make that action. lack of compassion, ego centricity, lack of love. you have to step on a lot of moral qualities to be able to kill.
for me, killing is not a option, absolutely bad, for me, and for the thing I kill. I cannot accept myself killing things anymore, I just cant. more then that, I want to protect life and id rather loose mine then destroy life for my own benefit.

I care about animals and life about as much as needed for it to continue, not to say I don't "care" or have empathy. I want balance. I'm actually very gentle with animals, and would be up until the point and even during slitting their throat or driving a knife into their brain/base of their skull to sever their spinal cord or something (to eat).

If it comes down to a meal for my family, or "Think about the deer and what it wants. Think about it's family", or fish, or whatever, I am accepting the gift of my superior place in the food chain and I am eating, with my family. Guiltless.

I eat chicken. It is about the only meat I eat. A raptor would eat me if it could. It wouldn't distinguish me from a little beetle, and it would peck at me, murdering me and eating me.
I don't owe the chicken anything like not eating it because it doesn't want to be eaten, but I am really thankful to God for the meal. I owe myself respect, so I buy organic, and free range, from farms that I can trace. And respect for myself translates to more respect for them.

 

[What 23]

I don't agree, although there are many microbes who may be "superior". It is perception... But humans are apex predators. ...Without getting into possible entities we can't see feeding on things in ways that aren't obvious to most.

Ebola... Only chlorella that I know of has B-12 in a form that is usable by our bodies. Spirulina is not the right form. Tests will show someone has the right levels, but they are misleading. It is a "pseudo" b-12. It plugs in the same way but actually blocks the use of the stuff we need. And chlorella needs its cell wall to be cracked, and is hard for some to digest. As well, it is a very complicated process, start to finish, requiring controlled environments, right levels of this and that... It is just more than people are individually capable of, in most cases. Not to say this would always be the case. But it is still high tech to maintain.

I don't know of any larger algae that produce usable B-12. The only one I know of is single celled chlorella.