Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[Ninae]

It's political. The largest industries are organised in guilds with immense financial and political power and lobby aggressively for their own interests. Everyone who knows a bit about politics are very aware of this but for some reason they don't think it affects the way they live their lives.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Fairly sure I didn't say any of that.

Was that directed at me?

 

[socko]

Do all you reasonably can, but don't let it harm your health. I spent some time last year trying to live off the land. I hunted, fished, harvested wild plants, and grew a vegetable garden. I would have raised chickens for eggs and meat if I had the time. I had done that several years ago.

Studies have shown commercial meat to be very toxic, prone to triggering diseases like cancer, and shortening of lifespan. Most meat products, like sausages, burgers, kebabs, etc. have no nutritional value, anyway (more like negative nutritional value). If you can afford organic steak it would be different.

Though this is a very unpopular view for all kinds of reasons. And mostly economical......

There is something to this. The conditions under which the animal was raised, what it was fed, what drugs and hormones etc were given to it, and how it was slaughtered affect the quality and even the flavor of the meat, eggs, mik, etc. But I'm not sure if it is known if it can have a significant long term effects on your health. Nobody has demonstrated that, afik.
If you believe animals are sensitive to their environment and are affected by their 'quality of life,' that's another reason to pay attention to the source of your food. In high-throughput factory farming, animals are grown in extremely crowded and dirty conditions which, to us, are disgusting. Free-range and game animals, if you can afford them, would be a better choice.

 

[Ninae]

Pictures like these really show the divinity in animals.

Its aura is SO pure and innocent.

When I was in for psychiatric evaluation (or voluntarily committed for a benzo script) I said one of the things that bothered me the most about this world is all the suffering inflicted on animals. And all they could do was grin and snigger as they obviously found that completely pathetic.

But it is one of the things that depresses me the most. Especially imagining cats being tortured or skinned alive almost makes me insane.

 

[ForEverAfter]

When I was in for psychiatric evaluation (or voluntarily committed for a benzo script) I said one of the things that bothered me the most about this world is all the suffering inflicted on animals. And all they could do was grin and snigger as they obviously found that completely pathetic.

I find that psychiatrists and the staff at psychiatric facilities I've been admitted to have shown less care than anybody else.
They're so jaded, having dealt with other people's problems for decades.
Often they don't even pretend to care, the overpaid fuckers.

I feel more comfortable talking about my depressive triggers with an unqualified stranger, on the internet.

Having said that, most meat eaters repress their true feelings about contributing to the torture of animals and - consequently - don't feel comfortable discussing other people's true feelings on the subject because they're afraid of their own... It's easier for them to mock, then it is to re-connect with their spiritual core and realize that they're contributing to the suffering of animals / doing something reprehensible..

So, maybe, assuming that the people doing your psych evaluation were meat eaters, you experienced a combination of both the jaded and the repressed?

...

PS. That photo is just as divine as a photo of a person, for me.
I'm not sure that God is in a donkey any more than God is in a banana.

PSS. Auras aren't captured by cameras.

 

[Ninae]

Not the literal aura but the energy it emanates.

 

[herbavore]

I find that psychiatrists and the staff at psychiatric facilities I've been admitted to have shown less care than anybody else.
They're so jaded, having dealt with other people's problems for decades.
Often they don't even pretend to care, the overpaid fuckers.

I feel more comfortable talking about my depressive triggers with an unqualified stranger, on the internet.

Having said that, most meat eaters repress their true feelings about contributing to the torture of animals and - consequently - don't feel comfortable discussing other people's true feelings on the subject because they're afraid of their own... It's easier for them to mock, then it is to re-connect with their spiritual core and realize that they're contributing to the suffering of animals / doing something reprehensible..

My experience with the mental health field and psychiatrists in particular has led me to believe that the field has been completely hijacked by the shoddy science of the Holy DSM and the highly profitable drugging of the world for everything and anything that used to simply be a part of being human in all its glorious diversity. The laziness and lack of inquiry and imagination that the DSM supports in modern psychiatry is atrocious. End of rant for now since that isn't the main point of this thread but just had to agree.

I am a terribly guilty meat eater. By that I mean that I agree that I am contributing to something that I could not do if faced with the reality of it directly. When I was young I went to a little hippie school in the Appalachians that actually had us think about where our meat came from and I became a vegetarian overnight. I stayed vegetarian into my twenties and began eating meat again when I was the guest of someone that served little else than meat and I was uncomfortable refusing to eat it. I assumed that it would be temporary but continued and do to this day. But you are right that it is a very uncomfortable place for me to be.

While I do limit myself to eating only small-farmed local meat as a fraction of my diet (and that is reinforced by the fact that it is so expensive that I couldn't afford to eat it every day) I know that if I would have to watch any animal be slaughtered and then prepared for consumption that I could not eat it. This is in contrast to people I know that do hunt and kill and prepare their own meat. To me that seems completely honest even if it is something I could not do. I basically feel like the world's worst hypocrite when it comes to meat.

My love of animals means that I love a lot of predators. I hike a lot and see the remains of deer killed by coyotes and mountain lions, I have pet cats that kill rodents and the other day I actually had to turn away from watching a pelican drown a cormorant to get the fish that the cormorant had just caught. I'm not sure whether we are evolutionarily meant to be predators or not I just know that I am not meant to be one and that the only reason I am is that I am letting someone else do the dirty work for me so I don't have to think about it.

In many ways I think that so many of the problems that people have within come from this separation from the basic life cycle.

 

[Ninae]

This made me feel even worse.

They're only one day old and already on the production line. And they're so beautiful and sunny to look at and there's a little piece of God in all of them. You've gotta be heartless to work in that industry.

 

[ForEverAfter]

It is better, IMO, to feel pain.
I, too, struggle with being vegan / vegetarian.
Having been brought up a meat-eater, it is a HUGE adjustment to go vegan.
Currently I am a practicing vegan, but - like you, herbavore - when I do relapse I am a self-hating meat eater.
At least you're not completely detached from your reality.
It is better to acknowledge what is going on.
It's a step in the right direction.

I don't see meat relapses as being significantly different to alcohol relapses, in the sense that I know I shouldn't be consuming either.
They (alcohol and meat) both make me hate myself... and the hate is increasing, over time, as I get closer to transitioning permanently.
Peer pressure is a big obstacle, for me, for both alcohol and meat.

I find it quite difficult sometimes to resist, when I'm surrounded by social meat / alcohol consumption.
This is especially true if I'm depressed, which ends up being a vicious cycle.

I've recently realized that I'm gluten intolerant, too, which means that I shouldn't eat meat / dairy / alcohol.
This "trifecta of abstinence" makes it seriously difficult to dine with other people.
I need to have non-gluten vegan food, to remain happy.

When I go to dinner at my parent's house, it's particularly difficult.
Everybody is drinking wine and eating home-cooked meals.
I feel embarrassed, insisting that I can't join them.
People look down on vegans.
They think we're crazy.

My family asks me why I'm doing it, and I don't want to insult them.
But, at the same time, I want to try and convince them to join me.
It's weird how addicted everyone is to meat.
Most people eat animal products every day.
I feel like an outsider, like Lisa Simpson.

It's really frustrating, but I'm coming to terms with it.
I'm making progress towards becoming permanently vegan, and gluten / alcohol free.
Sometimes I beat myself up about not getting there fast enough, which - in turn - slows me down.

My girlfriend is doing a vegan week, which I really appreciate.
She loves animals more than I do and I know it causes her serious pain to eat them.

You've gotta be heartless to work in that industry.

I don't think it's fair to condemn everyone who works in (or has ever worked in) a slaughterhouse.
Some people don't have a lot of options, unfortunately, and they need to support their family.
I've known people that I've loved and respected who've worked in chicken factories.

In many ways, I think, it is worse to be the consumer... and that applies to dairy just as much as meat.
No offence, but I suspect you may be distancing yourself from personal responsibility by condemning others.

Are people who euthanize cats and dogs heartless?

This is basically the holocaust. But - like the holocaust - all Nazi soldiers weren't evil.
The system (3rd Reich) was to blame. The individuals didn't really have a choice.
Germans aren't evil... neither are people who work in factory farms. (IMO)
It could have been you working for the Nazis, or killing chickens.
I don't believe in evil.

 

[Ninae]

Not distancing myself from the responsibility by condemning others. I just don't feel ready for it yet, and it's very hard without a transition period of eating dairy. I also think dairy could be available in more limited amounts that were produced in a more ethical way, so I don't feel it needs to be cut off completely like meat should be.

Having said that, if I were given the choice of a dairy production to be stopped if I stopped consuming dairy, I definitely would. It's not the end of the world, and people in the Western world have over-indulged themselves on all kinds of food for far too long. With imagination you could also learn to cook well without dairy just like you learn to cook without meat. Almond milk can be as good as regular milk, for instance, and nut butters are great too. You just need to find a way to use salt, fat, spices, and raw materials with strong flavours (like roasted walnuts with onions is as good as mincemeat).

My dad has actually worked in the meat industry his whole life. Although he's a food inspector so he only deals with the finished product and doesn't see any of horror that is going on. But farmers come in with their animals from all over the province there. My grandfather was also a butcher, he wasn't very delicate, and I once asked him how he could do it and he said "You just slash the pig's throat so fast it doesn't feel anything".

But he really loved animals and had real empathy for them and I guess it's good with someone like that in that position. He had an incredible relationship with animals. He loved them and they were crazy about him. Our pets forgot all about us when he was around. But I think this was also because he was very powerful and like a strong leader type, so they felt safe and protected around him, as no one would dare do anything to them when he was around.

All the same, he didn't see a problem in killing animals on an assembly line, but he was very insensitive, and repressed and compartmentalised his feelings. Then both me and my sisters chose to become vegetarians when we quit school, and my dad couldn't really believe that, but the sins of the fathers, etc.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I also think dairy could be available in more limited amounts that were produced in a more ethical way, so I don't feel it needs to be cut off completely like meat should be.

It's not going to be, though. You've said this before... I think you're lying to yourself.
I mean the same thing could be argued to justify the meat industry, couldn't it?

I just don't feel ready for it yet

How is that any different from people who aren't ready to stop consuming meat?
When will you be ready?

...

I don't see how you can judge factory workers in an industry that you support.
They are working for you.

 

[Ninae]

If you don't see cutting out meat consumption as an accomplishment there's really no way to argue with you. This line of reasoning is pretty crazy as well, considering all the suffering it would reduce.

To me, halving 50% of the atrocities counts for a lot, and the remaining 50% doesn't invalidate that. From what I've seen most also feel that way. Unless you're just trying to excuse your meat consumption by saying dairy is just as bad or even worse. Why not give up dairy then?

Hypocricy isn't the issue here. The lessing of the burden on animal suffering is. I don't feel proud of my dairy consumption but I'm not going to be made to believe that living meat-free of over a decade has contributed nothing because of that. Where would the world be if the millions of vegetrians were carnivores? Not a happier place for the animal kingdom.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I never said it wasn't an accomplishment... I will say, however, that I suspect you're using that (genuine) sense of accomplishment to justify other contributions towards the suffering of animals: in much the same way some people deal with guilt by consuming cage-free eggs... Whether or not you're consuming caged eggs or free-range, you're still contributing to the suffering of animals... and whether or not you're consuming dairy or meat, you're still contributing to the suffering of animals...

As I said, I don't think you're in a position to call meat eaters or people who work in slaughterhouses heartless.
I mean, by your own logic, aren't you "heartless"? (I'm NOT saying that you are. I'm exploring your logic.)

Vegetarianism is not good enough, in my opinion. The logic you're presenting is falsely representative of the issue/s.
To put it in another context, what you're saying is: if you don't rape people that is better than both raping and murdering people.
I can't argue with that. Of course it is better. But, not raping people doesn't justify murder (in any way, whatsoever).

You said you're not "ready" to take dairy out of your diet.
What are you afraid of? When will you be ready?
You've been a vegetarian for 5 years, already.
Why not try it and see how you feel?
Or, have you already tried?
If so, what happened?

you're just trying to excuse your meat consumption by saying dairy is just as bad or even worse. Why not give up dairy then?

Dairy is just as bad as meat.
I have given up both...
(I'm confused.)

 

[ebola?]

I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian, out of ethical concerns. This is my particular current compromise between hedonism, convenience, and altruism (I was a vegan for a few years a while back). Heh, I did eat meat the year that I spent in South Korea...basically, meat appears in all their entrees, and dining out is utterly central to social relationships. I didn't notice any real changes in health or even how I felt in any vague sense switching between omnivory, vegetarianism, and veganism. One can eat a healthy or shitty diet on all of these paths.

ebola

 

[-=SS=-]

Ninae's posts highlight, to me anyway, a problem with being opposed to eating meat based on grounds of pain/suffering. It's easy to see beauty in that little donkey or other fluffy animals but that is merely you projecting beauty on to it. As was stated god is just as much in a banana as something fluffy.

If you walk around outside you inadvertently kill numerous insects and critters all the time. Where is the lamentation for their passing? You didn't even bother to eat them, let alone recognize their death.

Then there's the slight issue that flora may actually register pain just as animals do. They certainly transmit a warning to other nearby plants. Also if you could speed up time you'd see plants are just as murderous to each other as any animal is to its prey.. it just happens so slow you only see the beauty of their forms. Just because you can't see animation of life, eyes or fluffyness doesn't mean plants don't have the same driving spirit that animals, or humans do.

I just don't understand the unnecessary torture you do to yourself by creating a concept of death/suffering for some particular animals. Don't get me wrong, industrial production is barbaric, ruthlessly and hellishly efficient..

If I had the chance to capture and kill my own food in the context of my urban life, I would. I find it to be a real experience, spiritual if you will, that connects me back to what the fuck is this all about, you know? This is not a morbid or twisted sense of death/killing, but more of an honour, a privilege to be a part of this reality. I see god in death just as much as I see god in the living animal or beautiful flower blossoming.

When I die I will be honoured for the bugs and microbes to feast on my flesh. Least I would if I didn't believe cemeteries to be such a fucking waste of space.

 

[ebola?]

What I'm hearing is that you think someone must do the most good possible to do any good. Is that what you're trying to put across?

ebola

 

[murphythecat]

when you kill insects, you dont know it.
but when you buy meat, you know you encourage a industry based on killing animals.

its all about your intentions. when you kill inadvertly bugs, its not your fault, but when you encourage the killing of animals because you like meat, its very different.

trying to justify the killings of animals is useless, it doesnt work. a animal doesnt want to be killed, yet we kill them and we create unnecessary suffering. clearly, if you think plants suffer as much as animals when we kill them, you havent think this through.

Ninae's posts highlight, to me anyway, a problem with being opposed to eating meat based on grounds of pain/suffering. It's easy to see beauty in that little donkey or other fluffy animals but that is merely you projecting beauty on to it. As was stated god is just as much in a banana as something fluffy.

If you walk around outside you inadvertently kill numerous insects and critters all the time. Where is the lamentation for their passing? You didn't even bother to eat them, let alone recognize their death.

Then there's the slight issue that flora may actually register pain just as animals do. They certainly transmit a warning to other nearby plants. Also if you could speed up time you'd see plants are just as murderous to each other as any animal is to its prey.. it just happens so slow you only see the beauty of their forms. Just because you can't see animation of life, eyes or fluffyness doesn't mean plants don't have the same driving spirit that animals, or humans do.

I just don't understand the unnecessary torture you do to yourself by creating a concept of death/suffering for some particular animals. Don't get me wrong, industrial production is barbaric, ruthlessly and hellishly efficient..

If I had the chance to capture and kill my own food in the context of my urban life, I would. I find it to be a real experience, spiritual if you will, that connects me back to what the fuck is this all about, you know? This is not a morbid or twisted sense of death/killing, but more of an honour, a privilege to be a part of this reality. I see god in death just as much as I see god in the living animal or beautiful flower blossoming.

When I die I will be honoured for the bugs and microbes to feast on my flesh. Least I would if I didn't believe cemeteries to be such a fucking waste of space.

 

[-=SS=-]

when you kill insects, you dont know it.
but when you buy meat, you know you encourage a industry based on killing animals.

its all about your intentions. when you kill inadvertly bugs, its not your fault, but when you encourage the killing of animals because you like meat, its very different.

trying to justify the killings of animals is useless, it doesnt work. a animal doesnt want to be killed, yet we kill them and we create unnecessary suffering. clearly, if you think plants suffer as much as animals when we kill them, you havent think this through.

You're just rehashing and jukeboxing the same old argument.

You try to make a distinction based upon intentionality. How exactly do you qualify that.. who is the judge and what is deemed malicious, intentional, inadvertent? Basically, your position is ridiculous.. no offense, I just can't be bothered to pick it apart philosophically using language right now.

If you kill an animal instantly and it doesn't suffer, what then? Does that now become acceptable?

When I buy meat I don't do it to encourage an industry that could adopt better practices but won't because profit is the bottom line and greed has fucked the souls of individuals. I buy it because I want meat in my diet and thanks to the rest of you wacky humans I now live in a fucking concrete jungle where the only hunting options I have available to me is pigeon and rat. If I had a farm I'd quite happily raise and slaughter my own food, and I'd give those animals more love than they'd get from a lot of people, and a cleaner death than they would in the wild.

 

[murphythecat]

if a animal suffer physically or not, it doesnt matter. what matters is that he doesnt want to be killed, yet we kill him for our own benefit. exactly the opposite of compassion.
you are the only one who can know your intentions and we, ourselves, suffer the most from our bad choice in life.

you buy meat most importantly not for your good diet, but because you like meat, even if its at the detriment of the animals. since, especially now, that you know how badly the poor animals are treated in the farms, the fact that you still decide to buy and by the same token encourage the most cruel industry in the world makes me think you may lack compassion for the animals. doesnt make you a bad person, but I dont see how people can convince themselves they are doing the best they can to make a better world by encouraging the slaughter and the worst living conditions of other sentient beings. its a terrible ife those animals have. and if we all stopped to buy meat, that indsutry would die and much less animals would suffer.

I dont care really, but its something to ponder about if you would have a farm and you wouldnt feel bad to kill your pig. I know I couldnt kill a pig, ever. because I'm sure the pig doesnt want to die, hence his horrible reaction when hes just about to be killed.

You're just rehashing and jukeboxing the same old argument.

You try to make a distinction based upon intentionality. How exactly do you qualify that.. who is the judge and what is deemed malicious, intentional, inadvertent? Basically, your position is ridiculous.. no offense, I just can't be bothered to pick it apart philosophically using language right now.

If you kill an animal instantly and it doesn't suffer, what then? Does that now become acceptable?

When I buy meat I don't do it to encourage an industry that could adopt better practices but won't because profit is the bottom line and greed has fucked the souls of individuals. I buy it because I want meat in my diet and thanks to the rest of you wacky humans I now live in a fucking concrete jungle where the only hunting options I have available to me is pigeon and rat. If I had a farm I'd quite happily raise and slaughter my own food, and I'd give those animals more love than they'd get from a lot of people, and a cleaner death than they would in the wild.

 

[-=SS=-]

if a animal suffer physically or not, it doesnt matter. what matters is that he doesnt want to be killed, yet we kill him for our own benefit. exactly the opposite of compassion.
you are the only one who can know your intentions and we, ourselves, suffer the most from our bad choice in life.

you buy meat most importantly not for your good diet, but because you like meat, even if its at the detriment of the animals. since, especially now, that you know how badly the poor animals are treated in the farms, the fact that you still decide to buy and by the same token encourage the most cruel industry in the world makes me think you may lack compassion for the animals. doesnt make you a bad person, but I dont see how people can convince themselves they are doing the best they can to make a better world by encouraging the slaughter and the worst living conditions of other sentient beings. its a terrible ife those animals have. and if we all stopped to buy meat, that indsutry would die and much less animals would suffer.

I dont care really, but its something to ponder about if you would have a farm and you wouldnt feel bad to kill your pig. I know I couldnt kill a pig, ever. because I'm sure the pig doesnt want to die, hence his horrible reaction when hes just about to be killed.

Listen, if I had more money I would pay for meat that I know is proper farm quality and not be forced to buy from shitty supermakets like Tesco which are the real cunts who encourage the industrial farming processes. Not my fault the greed of consumer and market destroyed all the local butchers and green grocers.

Would I feel bad for the animal I'd raised and about to slaughter? Sure. I'm not a heartless person. When I said I'd give them love I didn't mean form an emotional bond like a dog owner would.. it's more going the extra mile to ensure they live content lives and are cared for. But at the end of the day I'm an animal and there is absolutely no reason to get myself in a pickle over desiring to eat flesh.. my body is what it is, I didn't ask for it (to my knowledge). I just found myself here and part of this insane aquarium called life. If I could survive without eating I would.. I don't particularly care for it. Things taste nice sure, but eating is something I'm forced to do if I want to stay alive.

I respect those who want to be vegetarian or whatever, so long as you're not punishing yourself and that energy ends up affecting those around you. The only ones I despise are those who claim to be against animal suffering and simultaneously own pets to fill an emotional void in their lives. Any pet my family owned I loved and cared for, and I do the same for friends. But I would never buy an animal just for my amusement. Just to give you an insight on who I am.. you see actually I have compassion for animals. I just don't operate under illusions about the supposed morality of killing for food.