Do you believe in Karma?

[murphythecat]

I agree bob lunatic. its exactly this.
we make karma each and every moment of our time.
Karma is the effect that each of our intention and thoughts create in our mind. We create karma constantly, in every moment as we think most of the time: negative, positive or neutral karma.

when you think unwholesome thoughts or do unwholesome action, negativity is bound to happen and insatisfaction/suffering will follow. when you think wholesome thoughts or do wholesome actions, happiness follow.
pure law of the universe. the law of cause and effect.
Karma is intention.

 

[Journyman16]

I agree bob lunatic. its exactly this.
we make karma each and every moment of our time.
Karma is the effect that each of our intention and thoughts create in our mind. We create karma constantly, in every moment as we think most of the time: negative, positive or neutral karma.

when you think unwholesome thoughts or do unwholesome action, negativity is bound to happen and insatisfaction/suffering will follow. when you think wholesome thoughts or do wholesome actions, happiness follow.
pure law of the universe. the law of cause and effect.
Karma is intention.

But what defines 'good' or 'wholesome' and 'bad' or 'unwholesome'? Who decides? If we are here to experience all, maybe it is wholesome to assist someone to experience brutal murder, or rape - after all, you are assisting them on their path, right? What is negativity in a universe where all is to be learned, but just another experience?

And while BobTL might have his definition of Karma, according to his version of Buddhism, many people see it as the 'payback' mecahnism for doing evil things. Same questions for them...

 

[Trying2Iso]

not in this life

 

[PotatoMan]

i don't really believe in good or bad. I just try to do everything out of love for myself and others because it feels good.

 

[murphythecat]

wholesome thoughts are thoughts that bring peace, happiness, calm, increase renunciation and promote love right the moment you think that thought. A thought should make you feel good, if not, its a unwholesome thought.
Thoughts about the past and future is also unwholesome no matter how positive the experience you try to remember is. its still unwholesome thoughts. remembering, craving, ressentments, wishing, hoping, ill will, are all thoughts that are unwholesome. You must be in the present moment, and every thought not concern about right now and helping you feel good right now should be dismissed.

But what defines 'good' or 'wholesome' and 'bad' or 'unwholesome'? Who decides? If we are here to experience all, maybe it is wholesome to assist someone to experience brutal murder, or rape - after all, you are assisting them on their path, right? What is negativity in a universe where all is to be learned, but just another experience?

And while BobTL might have his definition of Karma, according to his version of Buddhism, many people see it as the 'payback' mecahnism for doing evil things. Same questions for them...

negativity, you know it in your consciousness. you know what is negative and what is positive. what makes you feel calm and peaceful is positive, and everything that occur, as thoughts, in your mind that brings stress, hate, ect should be seen as negative.
sadly, some even think its necessary too think negative thoughts.
but thoughts in general, as Ive said multiple time, should be left alone for the much more pleasant mindfulness of body which brings much more calm and peace then any thought, wholesome or unwholesome.

 

[Xorkoth]

So remembering a past event fondly or using your memory to bring up information you need is unwholesome? How about planning or dreaming about the future?

 

[murphythecat]

So remembering a past event fondly or using your memory to bring up information you need is unwholesome? How about planning or dreaming about the future?

thinking, overall, brings more stress then mindfulness of the body. The only thoughts that are beneficial are those that is able to generate love and peace in your heart. but most of the thing we think about is stressful. even remembering past moment that we are fond of brings a subtle type of insatisfaction because we most likely miss the moment we think about and this moment is long gone.

its unwholesome because when you remember, you arent in the present moment, where hapiness can only occur. its not the end of the world of course, but you cannot be now when you think about the future or the past. Most of our suffering in life is thought induced.

About the future, its totally uncertain. thinking about the future is always fantasizing as most of the time most thing we planned doesnt end up like we thought it would. also, hoping, wishing, craving for things in the future brings stress in the mind and most of the things we plan, we could plan it one time, then forget about it totally until you are in that future rather the obsessing over it and thinking about it over and over.

Mindfulness of thought is very helpful as anyone can realize very soon how much out of touch thinking create. Just ask your mind: where are you now? what are you doing now? if you see the thought is about the past, the future, ressentments, hatred, ill will, just observe that thought and label it. when you see that you think about a past event that you thought was injust and you didnt like, just say ressentments in your mind, or past, or whatever. putting a label to our thgouhts help to stop that the dialogue that was going on in the mind.

we then realize that any thought hasnt a life of its own if you observe it. you become the observer rather then the thinker. then you try to replace the unwholesome for a wholesome thoughts. eventually, thinking about negative stuff isnt really a option anymore as it becomes evident how uselsss and detrimental to our own happiness it really is. This is when purification begins to happen as you replace negativity with positivity everytime you see negative thgouhts arise in your mind therefore you are able to control your mood and so are able to maintain a relatively happy state of mind, filled with love in your heart at all time, no matter the circumstance.

and then, go back to the sensation in the body (mindfulness of the body) as its much less stressful to be in touch with the sensation of the body rather then think, no matter the thought.
eventually, its like a loop that you create. you go from negative, to positive, to mindfulness of the body. soon enough, you think much less and spend much more time with the mindfulness of the body. purification really takes place at this point.
hope that helps!!!

 

[Journyman16]

wholesome thoughts are thoughts that bring peace, happiness, calm, increase renunciation and promote love right the moment you think that thought. A thought should make you feel good, if not, its a unwholesome thought.
Thoughts about the past and future is also unwholesome no matter how positive the experience you try to remember is. its still unwholesome thoughts. remembering, craving, ressentments, wishing, hoping, ill will, are all thoughts that are unwholesome. You must be in the present moment, and every thought not concern about right now and helping you feel good right now should be dismissed.

negativity, you know it in your consciousness. you know what is negative and what is positive. what makes you feel calm and peaceful is positive, and everything that occur, as thoughts, in your mind that brings stress, hate, ect should be seen as negative.
sadly, some even think its necessary too think negative thoughts.
but thoughts in general, as Ive said multiple time, should be left alone for the much more pleasant mindfulness of body which brings much more calm and peace then any thought, wholesome or unwholesome.

Don't take this wrong, but that sounds pretty much like some form of nihilism. We are not animals to live only in the moment and forget the past nor worry for the future, and in fact even animals don't do that. We have no large claws or teeth, we are not the fastest, nor the biggest nor the toughest, but we are the highest level of life on the planet that we know of, and we are the BECAUSE we remember the past, in detail, and we can forecast and plan the future in some detail, and we can change how we respond and behave based on those thoughts.

If anything changes for those who live in the moment, they can be swept away by the events - if the winter lasts too long they will have no food. Should the rains not come they will have no water. When the landslide in the pass sends the herd a different way they will not be able to hunt. When the child gets sick they will have no medicine to heal them and the child will likely die while they go looking for a cure.

As for negativity, I'm betting Hitler didn't have a negative thought in his body until things began to unravel. :D

The point is, people have 'adjustable' consciences. What is seen as good or bad depends netirely on upbringing. The hordes of Mongols crossing the steppes didn't think it was evil to kill those who resisted their advance.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Fundamental Buddhism is just as nonsensical as fundamental Christianity...

A thought should make you feel good, if not, its a unwholesome thought.

This statement is wrong and your interpretation of Buddhism is off.
I could name a (literally) endless string of scenarios in which this doesn't work.

Here's 5:

1. A mass murderer on death row, who has never come to terms with his crimes, refuses to do so in order to avoid "unwholesome" thoughts.
2. A chronically depressed pedophile only finds happiness when molesting victims, which he justifies as avoiding "unwholesome" thoughts.
3. A heroin addict refuses to get clean, because doing so will inevitably involve "unwholesome" thoughts.
4. A widow refuses to grieve, in order to avoid "unwholesome" thoughts.
5. A child diagnosed with terminal leukemia refuses to accept the finality of the condition and process death, because facing death (especially at such a young age) will involve "unwholesome" thoughts.

I agree with Journyman.
What you're describing sounds more like nihilism than Buddhism.
If everybody did what you're suggesting, the world would be a horrible place.

It reminds me of the baseless claim that "reincarnation" in Buddhism is similar to "heaven" in that both are attempts to address the fear of death and avoiding it.

It is similar to heaven, but not in the way you described.
They both happen when you die / after death.
If you do good things, you are rewarded.
If you do bad things, you are penalized.

Buddhism is about THIS WORLD

Buddhism is not about THIS WORLD and THIS WORLD only.
On the contrary, it is - often - about seeing beyond this world.
Tibetan Buddhism, for example, largely revolves around death.

...

There are more Buddhist fundamentalists on this forum than Christian fundamentalists.

 

[Journyman16]

I agree with Journyman.

*faints*

 

[ForEverAfter]

I'm scared too.

 

[murphythecat]

hi foreverafter, perhaps my english doesnt allow me to fully translate what I know. I suggest ayya khema who explains in much more details how to train your mind.

I doubt one can really understand the full meaning of the dharma without experiencing it fully, and im far from there yet .

 

[swilow]

^I really enjoy your explanation and interpretation of Buddhism and I think you convey it quite well

*faints*

I agree also.

But I'm not sure Buddhism says to have no thoughts whatsoever of either past or future. Despite some of its esoteric beliefs, it is a relatively practical religion (in parts). Totally ignoring our fundamental human quality of complex recollection and forecasting is a dissonance that seems at odds with most other Buddhist teaching. I thought it was more about not dwelling too much on these things... I think our brother murphy may have over-simplified it perhaps...

 

[Journyman16]

I'm scared too.

Do you think we need a support group? :D

 

[murphythecat]

Sure, you must have thought, but you dont have to follow them. most of the thoughts are concern about the world outside.
eventually, the path is with a silenced mind and when you think, you can rely on the certainty of the thinking.

Our mind arent really clearly understanding reality and the thoughts we generate are always erroneous, at least partially. yet we think all day, all night, about stuff that we don't really know. This is where its unwholesome. we should only think about what we really know, which is now. what our mind is doing now is the only thing we can know fully and truly.

what I describe is the method on how to achieve a state of mind that will be conductive to concentration in meditation and is described by all the monks that I trust and that Ive listened.

mindfulness of thought is what I described and its the first step toward being able to meditate and achieve concentration and cultivate the state of mind conductive to the Jhanas and eventually nibbana.

BTW, I owe everything to Ayya Khema and everyone interested would be much more satisfied in hearing ayya khema talks in much more detail about what Ive said here.

^I really enjoy your explanation and interpretation of Buddhism and I think you convey it quite well




I agree also.

But I'm not sure Buddhism says to have no thoughts whatsoever of either past or future. Despite some of its esoteric beliefs, it is a relatively practical religion (in parts). Totally ignoring our fundamental human quality of complex recollection and forecasting is a dissonance that seems at odds with most other Buddhist teaching. I thought it was more about not dwelling too much on these things... I think our brother murphy may have over-simplified it perhaps...

again though, mindfulness of the body is the next step as it brings more calm and peace but you have to beign with mindfulness of thoguhts as its much easier to go back to mindfulness of the body witha positive thoughts then with a negative thought.

 

[Journyman16]

So, MTC, do you think we are here by mistake? Is this a reality we should be trying to ignore in some way and 'rise above' so we achieve some other reality? Not being sarcastic here, just curious as to why you'd think all around us is something to be rejected and isolated from - which is how what both your view and Bob's seems to be saying.

Why come here if it is just to be ignored? Why live a life if the intention is to close it out? You may reply it is the experience that matters, but how do you experience and learn if the main effort is in learning how NOT to be a part of the world? Surely one could do that in ANY realm, even astral ones.

What I am getting at is there has to be a reason for so many Beings to come here. Yes it could be we come and get trapped by the Solid, but there must be an initial reason that attracts so many. To me the logical answer is we come to learn, which means we need to engage with the classroom or else we'd be learning elsewhere.

 

[murphythecat]

We are here for very specific reasons. we have nothing to lose and everything to gain. we are in the realm of desires and its our desires and craving that brought us here and that brings us suffering over and over again.

You dont have to reject anything or isolate yourself from anything but its indeed about purifying your self to discover your inner self which is happy, at all time and joyful. the way to purify yourself is by letting go of some negative behavior we all have. We have to reduce the egocentricity, the me, the judgments and thoughts about the world. especially letting go of hate, ill will, negative thoughts and unwholesome desires as most of what we think is not absolute truth, its only a view point based on our limited understanding and view of the world yet we believe what we think, and that is the problem as our negative thought makes us suffer.

Any negative thought makes us suffer, yet we dont see it and we continue to justify our negative thought, ect.

Everything we need is right in this moment, but our mind doesnt allow us to see it because we are lazy, dont want to put effort (in trying to purify ourselves with mindfulness) and we accept ourselves to sensual desires, hatred, torpor, restlessness and doubt even though we know it doesnt bring any real satisfaction in the long term we still continue to think and act and believe what the mind think and justify the unwholesome thoughts and actions he makes. Its all just a band aid and not a good and safe remedy.

You dont have to learn to not be part of this world, not at all! its about learning to be in this moment, fully aware of whats actually there and dont allow the mind his unwholesome tendencies which are the 5 hindrances which are absolutely detrimental to one's own happiness.

There is nothing to become, we are already everything we want and have everything we need in this moment, but we cant see it only because we cant let go of our judgements, hindrances, our thoughts, our desires and our egocentricity.

again, I highly suggest anyone interested if only for general information to hear a monk talk about exactly what Im talking about. she is much more interesting then me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBvTQRAtKWY

doubts are greatly reduce when one actually try to meditate and is able to concentrate, even for 10 seconds. you can only concentrate with a happy mind, hence why its really needed to learn mindfulness of thought and integrate in our life.
when there's no thought in the mind, in concentration, this experience shows the mind that concentration do bring another type of calm and satisfaction and happiness that is obviously better then the way we've learned to gain happiness thru our senses...

 

[Xorkoth]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but one thing I don't agree with is that we have everything we need right now, in this moment. Perhaps mentally, but in fact we need food, water and shelter to survive. We need to be able to predict ways to avoid predators and other deaths by using past experiences and future planning. Same for gathering food and water and building shelter. If we lived purely in the moment we would not survive. I do however agree that people should strive to live MORE in the moment, and that focusing TOO MUCH on the past and future produces suffering, in general.

Also, when I was addicted to opiates, my mind was the quietest it's ever been. But I disliked that, I like having an active mind full of thoughts and dreams. After 10 years of opiate addiction I thought I had broken myself, and I was never so happy to have an active mind as I was when it came back. I think part of being human is having an active and inquisitive mind and I would not want to give it up, even if it makes it pretty intense to be a human sometimes.

 

[rave_itsrealfun!!!]

That's what happened to me when I was abusing weed. Completely lost my desire to be active and inquisitive. There was no soul to my life.

I derive meaning in my life through questioning everything and seeking answers, constantly learning and growing. As a stoner I was stagnant, dead inside. I also never dreamed at night when I was a stoner... I think it had to do with how my mind was so blank that there was no subconscious information from the day to process or mull over in my sleep at night... I just didn't feel human. Such a total burnout and a bummer of a human being. It sounds like I was hooked on 'hard' drugs, but there was really no difference. The addiction and obsession could not have been worse. Did that stuff ever ruin my mind when I was on it.

As for karma, I am convinced of its validity. There have been too many coincidences. There is someone who is watching your every move; you can't hide from yourself, and you are more powerful than you might think, since you are a manifestation of the infinite universe and share an intimate connection with everything in existence.

 

[Ninae]

I see it as closely related to how you relate to the whole. What is called karma can be seen as an expression of our inherent unity, meaning that everything you do to someone else you also do to yourself, so it will make its way back to you. In the same way, the more unity consciousness you have the less there will be a need for the law of karma to operate in your life.

People are born with varying degrees of unity consciousness and even children can be seen to be very different. When I grew up I had a very strong sense of unity consciousness. So strong that it was painful to do anything that hurt someone else as I would feel their pain like my own. It was like an inner limit that felt very uncomfortable to cross. And this created some problems as not everyone are like that (also not children) so I had some problems with being too trusting and not wanting to to do what it takes to defend myself. Or I wasn't willing to turn my energy field against someone else or project negative feelings against someone.

So I would choose to sacrifice myself, rather than sacrificing someone else, even though it was unfair to myself. But with time the burden of this got too much, I was also taken advantage of, so I eventually had to say it was enough ( when I was around 18 ) and now I will sometimes choose to sacrifice others instead of myself. In a way there is something lost (on the spiritual level) but also something gained (on the wordly level) as it's also a form of violence against yourself when you sacrifice yourself too much.

Finding a balance is hard. And with the way the world is having a strong unity consciousness tends to make you a victim, even if it is an advantage seen from a spiritual perspective (but this life isn't lived from a spiritual perspective). Although it makes you less of a victim of karmic retribution. It's a tricky choice.

I do feel God views the process I've gone through as an achievement and not just something negative though. I don't allow people to walk all over me and do what they like, unlike my sister, although she also demonstrates a great capacity for self-sacrifice. I just don't want to be a martyr (right now).