Do you believe in Karma?

[murphythecat]

sorry, but if anything, most of us westerners are profundly lucky and have great karma
just to be a human and have the ability and time to being to really look inside is extremely good karma.
most people are very kind and generous of heart, but most are simply lost in the pursuit of happiness that do not work: mainly sensual desire.

Unfortunately, the rewards of capitalism, by demonstration, do not seem to do much better in terms of a better life. The ever-escalating use of various pharmas, drugs, alcohol and other forms of escape would suggest our way of life is not suitable.

The rising levels of anger in the community suggest the same, and even worse, that we see ourselves as unable to break out of the pattern. Helplessness would appear the proximate cause of the anger - normal people do not have escalating anger because normally anger brings action to remove the irritant; the fact the anger levels are rising and spreading indicates, IMO, that we are not seeing the usual release from rage.

Do we suffer karma for being born into a society gone mad with control and punishment? Are we living this life for being rulers in previous ones? If so there's been a hell of a lot of evildoers around, given probably 6 billion of the 7.5 billion are living crappy lives now at the behest of power-crazed rulers.

 

[swilow]

thats great. im also a vegan. but ultimately mate, the problem is in you.
that illusion of self is consuming each moment of your life, and that wont go away by not polluting so much the environments.

I don't think you can really know this. You can assume it, from a Buddhist perspective, but its almost offensive. Religions like for us to belive we are broken and that they only can fix us. I just find that view to be a bit archaic. My problem can be helped by caring for the environment, because the lack of care is a huge bother to me. Its simple really...

 

[ForEverAfter]

The majority of Buddhist monks are not permitted to eat meat. Buddha, himself, was a vegetarian.
He allowed his monks to consume meat, only if the animal was not slaughtered for them.
He did not approve of the rearing and slaughtering of animals for food.

Caring for and respecting the environment, as well as minimizing harm, is part of Buddhism...

Having said all that, I agree with what Murphy said.
Ideally, you should be at peace with yourself. That is what is important.
It is impossible to cause zero harm.

I almost throw my hands up in despair at my own sense of helplessness

And it doesn't sound, to me, like you're at peace with your position in this world... despite your best efforts.

The problem isn't external.
I mean, is there a realistic/possible goal that you could reach which would alleviate your guilt?
...or will you live your entire life with this sense of helplessness hanging over you?

I have struggled with similar things, throughout my life.
I'm coming to accept the inevitability of my position on this planet.
While I aim to minimize harm, I am not in any hurry to do so.
It's going to take me some time to be able to achieve it.
And, that's okay... I accept it.

(I don't think Murphy meant any offense.)

 

[Journyman16]

thats great. im also a vegan. but ultimately mate, the problem is in you.
that illusion of self is consuming each moment of your life, and that wont go away by not polluting so much the environments.

I puzzle a lot about the 'Self' thing - most methods of spiritual progress seem to push the idea that Self needs to be devalued in one way or another, that we have to step away-from or out-of Self to become higher beings.

But that seems a bit off to me. Why would we be here as Selfs if we have to lose that - is there a Self-generator somewhere that churns us out and we have to somehow work out how to lose our identity?

I can't help wondering if we are here to learn to be Self AND to connect with other Selfs - that maybe we came from a single SELF and becoming a Self of our own is the goal, not the origin. It's difficult to explain, but what I wonder is if we begin as a selection of traits and attitudes and we come here to make that collection into a true Self that has a unique grasp of the Solid and so can contribute to the knowledge of SELF that started it all.

I also wonder if, when we fail to become Self-aware during a life, we might go back into the melting pot and get reissued later in a different mix to try again. Not sure about this part though because if it is that way, reincarnation would seem to be a trap that keeps a fialed mixture-self recycling over and over with little chance of stepping up to the next octave.

But in all of this, Karma and Guilt from the various Religions would seem only to be there to make us easily manipulated. The only real test of positive or negative progress would be how well we move towards Selfness and connection (if that is the aim of being here) NOT whether we 'deserve' punishment or not.

The very act of being aware that we had a non-progress life and perhaps harmed others would/should be enough to cancel any karma - knowing that would mean we do not need to go back and be punished for straying from the path, we have already learned that 'lesson' or we wouldn't be aware of any 'wrongness' in our previous life.

 

[Journyman16]

sorry, but if anything, most of us westerners are profundly lucky and have great karma
just to be a human and have the ability and time to being to really look inside is extremely good karma.
most people are very kind and generous of heart, but most are simply lost in the pursuit of happiness that do not work: mainly sensual desire.

Maybe... but it is also possible the Western life is a trap more sophisticated than that of living a poor life. It is also a toxic life for others - the numbers of downtrodden around the world because we live a life of THINGS and "Ooh, Shiny!" has probably never been equalled at any point in history, no matter how much the made-up history tries to convince us things were horrible in the distant past.

The Babylonians, Sumerians, Egyptians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Khmer, South American cultures and more, ALL built magnificent civilisations, even if they then went bad after some time, and a People do not do such things as abject slaves. We tend to look down on such cultures, partly because the winners write the history and partly because of the Darwinistic 'survival of the fittest' paradigm that implies we must be better because we are here, but given how miserable most people are these days, chances seem pretty good we have found a blind alley to run down and we will need to retrace our steps and find a new path for civilisation.

One that perhaps includes the spiritual and sees the Solid as more of a tool than a final destination.

 

[murphythecat]

what lack of care?
they dont believe in the self, and its not a belief, its the truth. you have no intrinsic self.
so theres nothing broken in anyone as theres no one inside.

of course though, its great the care for environments ect, its very marvelous and Im in the same boat as you, im also vegan ect, but still we are far from pure hapiness.

I don't think you can really know this. You can assume it, from a Buddhist perspective, but its almost offensive. Religions like for us to belive we are broken and that they only can fix us. I just find that view to be a bit archaic. My problem can be helped by caring for the environment, because the lack of care is a huge bother to me. Its simple really...

 

[murphythecat]

having no self meas exactly to connect with anyone. we are all one and are intimely related in the material realm, but the believe in a self is constructed, its not real.
theres 3 different reality they say: mental, material and the objective reality of nibbana.
but the reality of a self in us and a believe in a entity in us, is not one of a reality.

I puzzle a lot about the 'Self' thing - most methods of spiritual progress seem to push the idea that Self needs to be devalued in one way or another, that we have to step away-from or out-of Self to become higher beings.

But that seems a bit off to me. Why would we be here as Selfs if we have to lose that - is there a Self-generator somewhere that churns us out and we have to somehow work out how to lose our identity?

I can't help wondering if we are here to learn to be Self AND to connect with other Selfs - that maybe we came from a single SELF and becoming a Self of our own is the goal, not the origin. It's difficult to explain, but what I wonder is if we begin as a selection of traits and attitudes and we come here to make that collection into a true Self that has a unique grasp of the Solid and so can contribute to the knowledge of SELF that started it all.

I also wonder if, when we fail to become Self-aware during a life, we might go back into the melting pot and get reissued later in a different mix to try again. Not sure about this part though because if it is that way, reincarnation would seem to be a trap that keeps a fialed mixture-self recycling over and over with little chance of stepping up to the next octave.

But in all of this, Karma and Guilt from the various Religions would seem only to be there to make us easily manipulated. The only real test of positive or negative progress would be how well we move towards Selfness and connection (if that is the aim of being here) NOT whether we 'deserve' punishment or not.

The very act of being aware that we had a non-progress life and perhaps harmed others would/should be enough to cancel any karma - knowing that would mean we do not need to go back and be punished for straying from the path, we have already learned that 'lesson' or we wouldn't be aware of any 'wrongness' in our previous life.

karma means intention. as long as you have intention, you will create karma. intention to have sense pleasure, to judge, to gain, to become, to be, to like, ect. you suffer right away from any intentions as most action we do is to run away from our suffering. we want stuff, feelings, because we are, in this moment, unsatisfied.

We shouldnt generalize that all religion are alike. its so stupid to generalize.

its not like loosing our identity, our identity is not real in the first place. its created by your thoughts mainly.nothing solid about your self or your identity, its always chainging and it always change. its the nature of reality. the only thing that is yours if you want is your karma (your intentions). but a arahant has no intention anymore, he has nothing more to do, nothing to achieve.
there is the deed, but no doer
there is suffering, but no sufferer
there is the path but no one to enter it
and there nibbanna but no one to enter it

sure theres pleasant moment, but they will pass. everything will pass. clingning about the self brings a lot of stress in our life.
yes we have to realize and be mindful at all time. mindful means to not react, to be objective and not react. we need to realize what happnes in ourselve.

nothing in the world make us do the things we do. we are in control and we push ourselves, no one else.

we have to see that we believe that there is a me that feel, that think. we have to wonder who is that me. all those things and thoughts are totally impermanenet, yet we believe we own those feeling, those thoughts ect.

 

[murphythecat]

oh yes, it is a trap. as we see everyone trying to find happiness in a wrong way, and its hard to trust ourselve enough to no that no long lasting happiness can be found the way people try to find it. its just impossible.
so yes, western world is a trap, big time

but you have so much choice
you can decide to stop working.
to stop believeing in that self that makes you care so much about itself. its just a body, everyone got one, and the amount of time and effort people spend to care about that body, make sure that ``my`` body is safe, that ''me'' doent miss anything is astonishing.
the believe in a self is the number one cause of suffering. why? because its impossible. that body of ours will suffer and its not your to begin with. you think things you dont want to think, you feel things you dont like to feel. its all not you, its all automatic, cause and effect.
anyways

Maybe... but it is also possible the Western life is a trap more sophisticated than that of living a poor life. It is also a toxic life for others - the numbers of downtrodden around the world because we live a life of THINGS and "Ooh, Shiny!" has probably never been equalled at any point in history, no matter how much the made-up history tries to convince us things were horrible in the distant past.

The Babylonians, Sumerians, Egyptians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Khmer, South American cultures and more, ALL built magnificent civilisations, even if they then went bad after some time, and a People do not do such things as abject slaves. We tend to look down on such cultures, partly because the winners write the history and partly because of the Darwinistic 'survival of the fittest' paradigm that implies we must be better because we are here, but given how miserable most people are these days, chances seem pretty good we have found a blind alley to run down and we will need to retrace our steps and find a new path for civilisation.

One that perhaps includes the spiritual and sees the Solid as more of a tool than a final destination.

 

[Ninae]

I puzzle a lot about the 'Self' thing - most methods of spiritual progress seem to push the idea that Self needs to be devalued in one way or another, that we have to step away-from or out-of Self to become higher beings.

The lower self/ego. Our higher or divine self is waiting for us to break free and identify with it instead. But when you do, you have a completely different perspective on life, it's not even comparable.

Many philosopers and religions leaders had attained that state and are hard to understand.

 

[Erikmen]

True to some extent. My mother was like that, but still had to deal with many of the usual problems in life, and killed herself. But she couldn't accept that everything wasn't good as that's what she had been used to.

I am very sorry to hear that Ninae.
I believe none of us can not accept when everything is not good. Maybe our instincts are made not to accept that.
So I understand how devastating life could be.
I hope you succeed searching the good you deserve in life

 

[pill_billy]

My problem is that I doubt very much anybody gets up in the morning and thinks, "today I'm gonna do evil to people" and heads on out. even psychopaths probably think what is good for them is good for others.

theres defitnatly been days where i woke up and said im gona get high and i give two shits about how it happens... now is this "evil" in the classical sense? prob not, but def fucked up and as far as how it works, if you put good energy out there good things will come back if you dont it wont... its not an exzact science and you can say well ima give this homeless guy a dollar so i get two back later... just live your life in a positive way and positive things will happen...

 

[murphythecat]

karma is intention, then that intention is often translated in action.
karma is not about receiving getting something in return because you did good actions.

making good karma is when you do them actions only for the benefit of others, without any ego goals, because you understand that we are all in this together, and ultimately, giving to others is giving back to you automatically.

of course, it will make you feel good to do good actions, but if you do it also to feel good, it wont really be purely good, as your attached to the results.

the more love you can feel for another being around you and the more love you can generate into your own heart for others, we have to realize that at the end, the more love we will have within us.
the more love we generate, the more love we have.

 

[noone1]

I'm glad a bunch of people immediately jumped in with the correct interpretation of karma, I really hate the "what comes around goes around" definition. I believe it's a fairy story people tell themselves to feel better about life, that somehow there is some sort of cosmic justice out there to right all the wrongs happening.

 

[Journyman16]

Karma to believe in... :D

 

[swilow]

^Ha, nice :D

 

[Foreigner]

I'm glad a bunch of people immediately jumped in with the correct interpretation of karma, I really hate the "what comes around goes around" definition. I believe it's a fairy story people tell themselves to feel better about life, that somehow there is some sort of cosmic justice out there to right all the wrongs happening.

Most honest spiritual scholars will tell you that karma is ultimately beyond our knowing... so people who run around claiming to know exactly how the universe works with their semantic definitions are really just trying to define a system that is beyond definition.

You'll find that life goes a lot better when you abide in and accept the great mystery. When you stop trying to figure out and accept that it's bigger and wiser than you, you'll start learning a lot more.

 

[Bob the Lunatic]

All religion aside, do you?

I do believe. Because karma is real. It is not however like a god as you described. It is not some force of judgment in the universe. it is not a consciousness or being of any sort. I am atheist BECAUSE karma is true. Karma is mutually exclusive with any employable god.

That said, let's examine what it actually is and then you can compare the actual model with the events you want to investigate the meaning of.


The important thing to understand with karma is something it offers that is missed by most religions.

The issue of morality and where it is.


Take christianity-"lying is a sin" "killing is a sin"


This indicates something quite silly if you can step back and see it for what it is-such ideas indicate that actions have value by their OWN accord. They do not.

Killing is neither moral nor immoral by its own accord. What gives it value? THE INTENT. That is where the value lies-in the truth of what one was trying to do. What was their intent? The right intent would determine that killing in some situations, as well as lying in many more would be the ONLY moral thing to do. I shouldn't need to give an example when so many obvious ones exist for all of us-just think and you'll think of many.

Yet... despite common law figuring this out over 1000 years ago.. Xianity still remains clueless on the matter.

Karma also is based on NOT the action itself, but the NATURE OF the action.

The nature of the cause will be equal to the nature of the effect.


So the last thing karma is like is a god. Thus you'll find zero cognitive dissonance with karma as an atheist. Buddhism is usually atheistic. It's usually so atheist it ignores the question (of god) completely. Like-not one sect has a creator or creation story.

Back to karma. You must understand that OTHER atheist explanations are MORE similar to god than karma

For example, Chance or Predeterminism. Both are essentially God are they not? They may be cold, indifferent, uninterested gods... but they fill the same function, and cause the believer to behave the SAME WAY. All 3 (god, chance, predeterminism) are versions of FATALISM (believing some other force controls your destiny). You said that about karma-like it's an outside force, separate from you.

No, it's your 8th consciousness. Look at your life as a mirror. If your life is clean, if you are "good" you can see yourself clearly and you'll be happy and respect those around you-as you cannot see yourself without seeing the same thing in them.


This is nearly NEVER the case-this is the GOAL of life, so it's quite rare. In the meantime-what makes it so hard? Karma. Your karma is like DIRT on that mirror. So, what you see is distorted. As such, those distortions cause you to react to a false reality-which of course creates MORE of the same karma that caused the distortion... that led to the karma.... that caused the distortion.....


You see? Like a waterfall of dirty water into the mind.... always betraying it, but it is YOU. Karma actually is not a force but a LAW that your life operates by-as does mine. Belief is irrelevant, you can't curry its favor, you can't make it offerings, you can't be in the "IN" group, there is no group IN with karma. That's just not how it works with Buddhism... I may take the label "Buddhist" and may have for almost 25 years.... but that doesn't mean my karma is better than yours.

Further, in the 2nd chapter of the Lotus Sutra, I think karma is best explained. Buddhism is a study of the mind you see, it's not really like other religions, it's more like psychology if anything. Anyway, in the Hoben chapter, the 10 factors of life are explained, which describe how life interacts with its environment and changes moment to moment via karma. The karmic cycle I described above is a reality for all of us-slaves to our own natures. Breaking free of that (IN THIS WORLD) is what Buddhist practice, including "Lessening of Karmic Retribution" are all about-and again, emphasis on THIS WORLD.

The 10 factors: the first 3 are the sentient being (1/ appearance 2/ nature 3/ entity)
4-5 their latent & manifest ability to interact (4/ power 5/ influence)
6-9 karma (6/ internal cause 7/ external cause 8/ internal effect 9/ external effect
10/ And their consistency from beginning to end

If there is the slightest bit of life, it has the 10 factors and life is always operating in accordance with them.

I'm a gnostic atheist as a Buddhist. Atheism is an unavoidable side effect of practicing Buddhism.

 

[Bob the Lunatic]

I puzzle a lot about the 'Self' thing - most methods of spiritual progress seem to push the idea that Self needs to be devalued in one way or another, that we have to step away-from or out-of Self to become higher beings.

But that seems a bit off to me. Why would we be here as Selfs if we have to lose that - is there a Self-generator somewhere that churns us out and we have to somehow work out how to lose our identity?

I can't help wondering if we are here to learn to be Self AND to connect with other Selfs - that maybe we came from a single SELF and becoming a Self of our own is the goal, not the origin. It's difficult to explain, but what I wonder is if we begin as a selection of traits and attitudes and we come here to make that collection into a true Self that has a unique grasp of the Solid and so can contribute to the knowledge of SELF that started it all.

I also wonder if, when we fail to become Self-aware during a life, we might go back into the melting pot and get reissued later in a different mix to try again. Not sure about this part though because if it is that way, reincarnation would seem to be a trap that keeps a fialed mixture-self recycling over and over with little chance of stepping up to the next octave.

But in all of this, Karma and Guilt from the various Religions would seem only to be there to make us easily manipulated. The only real test of positive or negative progress would be how well we move towards Selfness and connection (if that is the aim of being here) NOT whether we 'deserve' punishment or not.

The very act of being aware that we had a non-progress life and perhaps harmed others would/should be enough to cancel any karma - knowing that would mean we do not need to go back and be punished for straying from the path, we have already learned that 'lesson' or we wouldn't be aware of any 'wrongness' in our previous life.

I think this is a misinterpretation of karma.

Karma is first of all happening NOW, here, THIS WORLD.

So to me, a person well educated on the topic of these compared religions, you sound like this:

"Yes, drug dealers that offer their drugs a year after you pay are as trustworthy as those that give you your drugs WHEN you pay."

Buddhism is about THIS WORLD, so what threat could it be trying to manipulate us with?

Hell is in the mind-you can only punish yourself in buddhism

This post is way off the mark understanding karma.


Guilt would be bad karma lol. So to claim karma is like guilt requires you misunderstand karma completely.

It reminds me of the baseless claim that "reincarnation" in Buddhism is similar to "heaven" in that both are attempts to address the fear of death and avoiding it.

Not true, and contrary rather. There is no "me" to reincarnate according to Buddhism. That is-I won't have THIS mind, nor this body-so it's no longer me. If it was, I wouldn't be me NOW, but what I was in the last life. And without that mind, I cannot remember that entity-which isn't me. I am me. And what I will be, will no longer be me. Buddhism is definitely focused on THIS WORLD.... to put it mildly. Really it's only focus is THIS MOMENT.

So, that idea and comparison is a fallacy. Further-reincarnation is clearly NOT avoidance, an endless cycle of birth and death with no beginning and no end-that is Buddhism. That's not easy, that's not flowery, if anything it's TOO hard. Quite unlike other religions-which all sell you a galaxy for a quarter.

Back to what karma is and is not. Karma as a theory is EMPOWERING, not guilt-associated nor debilitating. Karma says YOU have 100% control over your life. What is not empowering about that? God says you have 0% control over your life (except perhaps to believe or not, and be gay or not ) so they are absolute opposites. I'll stop there but very happy to debate this misinformation further.

 

[Journyman16]

But how is the 'dirt' on the mirror determined? There is an assumption behind what you say that there is a 'good' way and a 'dirty' way to live - who decides which is which? If it is us, then would Hitler have 'dirty' karma to deal with if he believed he was doing the best possible thing for humanity? How about Genghis Khan? If intent determines the 'dirtiness' of karma, then the 'dirt' on the mirror can easily be made null simply by having the intent to do good.

An example for modern times - we are polluting the Earth and destroying life forms at a rate only seen in ELE's (Extinction-Level Events) If I wish to purify the Earth and bring humanity back into balance with the rest of life, it is moral and right to kill 7 billion people to do so. After all, it is only meat that dies... right? I can even justify it karmicly for the 7 billion - here in this life they are abomination, destroying on wholesale levels the innocent and defenceless.

By removing them all now I help them to stop dirtying their mirror and reduce the amount of karma that will affect them in the future.

 

[CosmicG]

It isn't even really a cosmic thing as it is just natural. If you do good things for people they will do good things for you most of the time assuming you are surrounded by decent people. Energy is real