Most Recreational/Euphoric/Social Psychedelic?

[Delsyd]

Something about semantics

I'm glad you have such a strong opinion on what is or isnt psychedelic. But I go by the actual definition, which is "mind manifesting" and has nothing to do with receptor affinity.

Psychedelic synonyms: hallucinatory, trippy, dream-like, mind-bending, mind-altering, mind-expanding, mind-blowing, bizarre, surreal
"a psychedelic experience"

By that definition MXE is psychedelic as well as other dissociatives and empathogens and even deleriants can cause psychedelic experiences. Just because most psychs are 5ht agonists doesn't mean that the term is to be used exclusively for those drugs.

But we can agree to disagree because it's a stupid argument and I know I'm right and you're wrong

 

[AA357]

I don't believe in socialising while on psychedelics - prefer tripping alone.

To a degree I'm the same... people piss me off when I'm really tripping balls. There are very few people who I like to trip with.

2C-E and DOM are different though - I find them to be very lucid and gentle. There is very little in the way of mindfuck... at 30mg and 10mg respectively, it's business as usual.

 

[AA357]

I'm glad you have such a strong opinion on what is or isnt psychedelic. But I go by the actual definition, which is "mind manifesting" and has nothing to do with receptor affinity.

Psychedelic synonyms: hallucinatory, trippy, dream-like, mind-bending, mind-altering, mind-expanding, mind-blowing, bizarre, surreal
"a psychedelic experience"

By that definition MXE is psychedelic as well as other dissociatives and empathogens and even deleriants can cause psychedelic experiences. Just because most psychs are 5ht agonists doesn't mean that the term is to be used exclusively for those drugs.

But we can agree to disagree because it's a stupid argument and I know I'm right and you're wrong

BULLSHIT. I am going by the commonly accepted definition of what a psychedelic is. I know what the term 'psychedelic' literally translates as, but it's not the same. Literal translations don't mean shit.

Here's another Greek-derived term: pedophile. The literal translation of this term is one who likes or loves children (no sexual connotations). Given your fucked up attitude and apparent obsession with literal meanings; these people are valuable members of society, right??? Ordinary loving parents, teachers and pediatricians fit the literal definition of 'pedophile' very well.

 

[Delsyd]

Lol, I'm kind of excited that my reply has evoked such a reaction from you. I can tell this is something you feel strongly about and for that reason I'll insist that you are still wrong and Wikipedia has my back and supports my definition over yours and so does Mr Webster the Dictionary.
Nany nany boo boo stick your head in doodoo

Now it's your turn to support your argument. Where is it explicitly stated that a psychedelic drug is only one that affects 5ht receptors.

Edit: your pedophile argument is stupid as it's well known that pedophile is someone sexually attracted to pre pubescent children. The etymology of a word doesn't change its definition.

 

[AA357]

Lol, I'm kind of excited that my reply has evoked such a reaction from you. I can tell this is something you feel strongly about and for that reason I'll insist that you are still wrong and Wikipedia has my back

O'rly?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_drug

FIRST line:

A psychedelic substance is a psychoactive drug whose primary action is to alter cognition and perception, typically by agonising serotonin receptors.^[2]

and supports my definition over yours and so does Mr Webster the Dictionary.

Webster's definition is vague but it specifically references LSD numerous times:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psychedelic

Edit: your pedophile argument is stupid as it's well known that pedophile is someone sexually attracted to pre pubescent children. The etymology of a word doesn't change its definition.

The term psychedelic, in common parlance, refers specifically to 5-HT agonists. As you can see, etymology and definition are often quite different.

Dissociatives are classed as a type of hallucinogen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen
Psychedelics are also hallucinogens, as are deliriants. This doesn't mean dissociatives=psychedelics=deliriants... they are three totally different classes of drugs. The only thing they have in common is that they all cause hallucinations.

 

[ecstacylover]

Now it's your turn to support your argument. Where is it explicitly stated that a psychedelic drug is only one that affects 5ht receptors.

correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe someone posted a link a few pages back to a paper by David Nichols which explains why mdma is not a psychedelic. If you go by that definition, then MXE would not be a psychedelic by the same token, correct? Which begs the question, is ketamine not technically a psychedelic since it is primarily an nmda antagonist? I think a fair share of its users would consider it to be psychedelic. Also, what about Salvia?

Anyway, I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and personally I consider a psychedelic to be anything which is "mind-expanding" - which is a pretty subjective term in itself. To me, mdma is a true psychedelic along with cannabis and the 5-ht agonists. I think dxm, mxe , and the rest of the dissociatives are certainly capable of evoking psychedelic experiences. I would say anticholinergics are not. Not trying to push this viewpoint on anyone else, just the way I see it.

Oh and most euphoric: Al-lad

I'm sure a deeper psychedelic could be far, far more euphoric, but also much more difficult. Al-lad euphoria comes easy so I would choose it if I was simply looking for euphoria.

 

[AA357]

correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe someone posted a link a few pages back to a paper by David Nichols which explains why mdma is not a psychedelic. If you go by that definition, then MXE would not be a psychedelic by the same token, correct? Which begs the question, is ketamine technically a psychedelic since it is primarily an nmda antagonist? I think a fair share of its users would consider it to be psychedelic. Also, what about Salvia?

No - they are HALLUCINOGENS. Just because a drug makes you 'trip', doesn't make it a psychedelic.
The drugs you mention - MXE and ketamine especially (and to an extent salvia and cannabis) are dissociatives. They most definitely are hallucinogens but their pharmacology is totally different to that of psychedelic drugs.

Anyway, I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion

But the 'opinion' that dissociatives = psychedelics is false and deserves to be criticized. I thought this forum was all about harm reduction?
Ideally we should be referring to MXE et al as dissociative anesthetics or dissociatives. The term 'hallucinogen' is also acceptable, but referring to them as psychedelics is just misleading and inaccurate.
I'm not nitpicking here. Imagine if somebody snorted a line of K or MXE for the first time expecting an LSD-like experience, after reading on BL that they have in their possession a psychedelic drug. They're sure as hell gonna be in for one hell of a shock.

and personally I consider a psychedelic to be anything which is "mind-expanding" - which is a pretty subjective term in itself.

That it is. Personally the only drug I found truly 'mind expanding' was methamphetamine - my work with that stuff actually increased my productivity and appreciation for life in the long run, but it would be ludicrous to describe it as psychedelic.

 

[Doldrugs]

"What is psychedelic" isn't cut and dry, man. It's a vague, complex concept. It's not as simple as you're making it out to be.

 

[Erikmen]

Not simple at all, to say the least..

 

[AA357]

"What is psychedelic" isn't cut and dry, man. It's a vague, complex concept. It's not as simple as you're making it out to be.

Not really - the only people who are making it vague and complex are yourselves.

In 'drug speak', the term psychedelic refers to a specific a type of hallucinogen.
Dissociatives and deliriants are also types of hallucinogen.

Hallucinogen is a category, psychedelics/dissociatives/deliriants are sub-categories. This system works pretty well so why can't you people just fucking accept this?

Yes, dissociatives can have psychedelic effects. Psychedelics can also have dissociative effects. Both psychs and dissos can cause delirious states.
So yes there is some cross-over, but it doesn't mean shit. Let's just stick to the commonly accepted, 'working' definitions for the sake of harm-reduction and to avoid confusion. It's really not that fucking complicated, Jesus.

 

[Doldrugs]

You can keep saying it's black and white, you're right and everyone's wrong, etc. The fact is, you don't have anything to back that up. Psychedelic is a vague, broadly defined term. Read the dictionary and encyclopedia definitions. They are not all going to say "only these classes of drugs are psychedelics." They are likely to disagree with one another to a certain extent, or contain words like "mostly" or "possibly." At least in part due to prohibition and cultural attitudes, and also in part due to the complexities and limits of our current understanding of the human brain, these things are not concretely decided and proven. Salvia, ketamine, cannabis, etc have been considered psychedelic by high profile researchers and theorists in that field for a long time, despite being drastically different kinds of molecules and not hitting the same receptors that mescaline does.

"What is psychedelic?" is an interesting question. "Only tryptamines and phenethylamines," or "only 5-ht2A agonists" are possible answers, but their accuracy is neither established nor proven.

 

[ecstacylover]

Psychedelic dissociatives

 

[Delsyd]

There are also what's known as atypical psychedelics like salvia and I think Ibogaine too.
AA I'm sorry for getting you all worked up, I was just trolling a bit. I still don't think that you're right because I don't think there is one right answer. But if someone chooses to refer to a dissociative as psychedelic that shouldn't be so much of an issue because as you stated dissociatives can have psychedelic effects therefor calling it psychedelic isn't too far off. If you want to stick to your definition and only refer to 5ht agonists as psychedelic it doesn't bother me. And I don't believe I caused any confusion in calling MXE or K psychedelic in regards to this thread. In fact dissociatives should be included in this thread because they possess psychedelic qualities as well sociability, euphoria etc.

 

[perpetualdawn]

It simple: the definition of psychedelic is a drug that makes you see how absurd it is to classify a drug as being psychedelic or not.

Edit: Back on topic re: Recreational/Social/Euphoric - as always this is down to set and setting but I'd agree with what a lot of people are saying, that AL-LAD is pretty euphoric/recreational, as is LSD. 2C-T-7 seems promising for this vein, but I've only scratched the surface with it. 2C-D is pretty social and recreational. Of course MDMA is extremely social, euphoric and recreational, but we don't call that psychedelic on BL. Personally I find MDMA to be much more psychedelic than ketamine or any other dissociative I've tried, so my personal definition of PD includes MDMA but doesn't include disocciatives. I really don't care at all about how we define it on BL, or how anyone else does for that matter because it's all rather arbitrary anyways.

 

[Xorkoth]

I found AL-LAD to be about as close to ideal for me as I've found in terms of social/recreational/euphoric. I've only had a proper dose once, but I think this weekend I'm going to try it again. I had SO much fun last time, me and my friends all basically had the giggles for the whole duration, the best giggles I've had since I was a kid. Also there was an complete lack of any anxiety or bodyload, even during the come-up.

Also: visiting this thread has left me dripping with sweat. Maybe it's time to turn down the heat a bit?

 

[Doldrugs]

And before anybody tries to argue with me: a 'psychedelic' in common parlance is a drug that works primarily as a 5-HT agonist.

Nope, not true. That is not "common parlance." Your personal definition is not the widely accepted definition. Discussions about psychedelics among the lowest to the highest authorities on this subject very often include other compounds. Or exclude them. It's a fluid discussion.

 

[Kl519]

Man, some debates I just do NOT want to get into, even though I have my own thoughts on the subject. I don't want to be zipping through papers, references, etc. (especially outside an academic setting, I've had enough of that) because I have a lot of fun posting on BL, and this argument is just not fun.

On that note, metocin and miprocin are both a LOT of fun. In fact, I'd call them the recreational psychedelics. Anyone who wants to get hardcore psychedelic effects without going back to trauma city, those are the ones to take. Imo, of course.

 

[AA357]

OK so obviously my brain chemistry is totally different from pretty much everybody else. Personally, when I sniff a line of ket or MXE it doesn't feel anything like acid or shrooms or DPT or anything like that whatsoever. Dissociatives don't make me see intricate patterns everywhere or cause objects to morph. The only thing they have in common with psychedelics is they both get me fucked up.

 

[gonialmonica]

SWIM found that DOM weirdly made him sociably, maybe because he used it so much during the time period that he used it, or maybe because its a substitute amphetamine, but whenever he would take it he felt a weird nee to talk to people.

 

[AA357]

SWIM found that DOM weirdly made him sociably, maybe because he used it so much during the time period that he used it, or maybe because its a substitute amphetamine, but whenever he would take it he felt a weird nee to talk to people.

We don't use SWIM on here.

DOM is basically silly speed for me. Very lucid with great visual effects.