The Ferguson Thread: Part II

[LosBlancos]

I interpret it more as a logical human response to shitty prospects. Teen pregnancy tends to go up with future uncertainty (such as the American Revolutionary War). Not all races have the same certainty in the future, for obvious reasons. I'd look there to explain differences in teen pregnancy rates.

Uncertain future? Let me just ensure my future is horrible by conceiving a few children in my teens so then their future can be horrible as well. Get an education, save a few years of salary, then have children. Seems more likely to produce success than a couple baby mamas before your 20 but thats just me.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Uncertain future? Let me just ensure my future is horrible by conceiving a few children in my teens so then their future can be horrible as well. Get an education, save a few years of salary, then have children. Seems more likely to produce success than a couple baby mamas before your 20 but thats just me.

Do you reject evolutionary biology, or do you not know of it?

 

[LosBlancos]

Do you reject evolutionary biology, or do you not know of it?

I'm familiar with it. I've yet to hear it in regard's to high teen pregnancy rates among minorities. I suppose it would be hard to shift the blame otherwise. Tell me that guy I saw on Maury with 13 children all from different women, he must have been practicing evolutionary biology If race is nothing but a social construct wouldn't we all go about preserving our genes in roughly the same way: i.e. if you wait until your late 20's/early 30's and wait till you are in a loving marriage to have children they will likely have a better life than if you had them at 18 years old with someone you just meant.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I'm familiar with it. I've yet to hear it in regard's to high teen pregnancy rates among minorities. I suppose it would be hard to shift the blame otherwise. Tell me that guy I saw on Maury with 13 children all from different women, he must have been practicing evolutionary biology If race is nothing but a social construct wouldn't we all go about preserving our genes in roughly the same way: i.e. if you wait until your late 20's/early 30's and wait till you are in a loving marriage to have children they will likely have a better life than if you had them at 18 years old with someone you just meant.

But if you're life prospects aren't as good as others, then the drawbacks of having a child are less. You won't be giving up a good career.

 

[LosBlancos]

But if you're life prospects aren't as good as others, then the drawbacks of having a child are less. You won't be giving up a good career.

If you complete high school with good grades there is a slew of scholarships and grants available to the poor. There are millions of instances of Americans from the lower-class getting great careers. What gives you a better percentage chance of doing so, is it A.) deferring having children until later in life, completing high school, and going to college or B.) having a child or two out-of-wedlock in your teens when you are not financially stable and not complete high school.

You say won't be giving up a good career as if our destiny is 100% predetermined, as if you have a crystal ball out there and can see there is no chance whatsoever for improvement of living standard given hard work.

There are many drawbacks to having children at a young age and out-of-wedlock. Not just for the parents, but the child of a single parent as well. Studies have shown that children of single-parents (usually fatherless) are at higher risk of suicide, more likely to suffer from child abuse, there is a myriad of drawbacks of having children out of wedlock.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 42"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census)[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 42"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 42"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes (Source: Center for Disease Control)[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 42"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.)[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 42"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 42"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes (Source: Rainbows for all God`s Children.)[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 42"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 42"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992)

[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]

 

[ebola?]

You say won't be giving up a good career as if our destiny is 100% predetermined, as if you have a crystal ball out there and can see there is no chance whatsoever for improvement of living standard given hard work.

 

[LosBlancos]

I know, everything you disagree with is a straw-man argument. He said "you wouldn't be giving up a good career". How does he know that? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy when someone thinks there is bad life prospects but goes to ensure they have bad life prospects by having children at a young age when they are financially unstable, turning to crime, and dropping out of high-school. If you do that it's evident your own choices lead to that, but obviously most people would rather not admit that so playing the victim and blaming your circumstances on racism is preferable.

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

I interpret it more as a logical human response to shitty prospects. Teen pregnancy tends to go up with future uncertainty (such as the American Revolutionary War). Not all races have the same certainty in the future, for obvious reasons. I'd look there to explain differences in teen pregnancy rates.

I think the uncertain futures are correlated but independent of the actual cause of greater teen pregnancies in these populations, which is simply worse off teens engaging in sex younger and more frequently than their better off counterparts. Wealthy communities are going to be filled with strong families that all work to discourage teen pregnancy. Collectively, these families create a community standard where promiscuity at a young age is not the norm. Contrast this with poorer communities-- while some parents definitely work hard to have a strong family and to prevent their children from engaging in sex at a young age, the presence of many broken or dysfunctional families works to create a lower standard for the community as a whole. The children from strong families but poor communities would be expected to have somewhat higher rates of teen pregnancies than their wealthy counterparts, while the dysfunctional families from poor areas would have the highest rates of teen pregnancies.

 

[ebola?]

I know, everything you disagree with is a straw-man argument.

Hahahah...you're still doing it (kind of...I have been overusing this response). However, I am rather skeptical that you aren't taking such an uncharitable reading of Escher on purpose. I think it was rather clear that Escher was talking of tendencies and probabilities, not certainties, since his arguments depended on drawing inference from statistical data in the first place.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy when someone thinks there is bad life prospects

To some extent, you're correct, in that many natural responses to adversity aren't particularly adaptive, at least in terms of overturning those circumstances, but is true across life-situations (the flipside is that maladaptive responses aren't nearly as heavily penalized when one begins with a higher degree of privilege, eg, it's way, way easier to deal with a teen pregnancy when one begins from upper-middle class or better circumstances).

ebola

 

[LosBlancos]

To some extent, you're correct, in that many natural responses to adversity aren't particularly adaptive, at least in terms of overturning those circumstances,

ebola

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a dialogue on those responses, rather than making circumstances seem as though they are entirely imposed by society. Here is a graph of birth rates for each continent:

In Africa what is already a very poor continent the average woman is having about five children. Having to care for these children is obviously putting a strain on families, and when people are already facing starvation and famine it seems foolish to continue to reproduce at this rate. It seems the population growth is far outpacing the growing of infrastructure and wealth, both on the micro level of the family and more macro level of the continent. Compare that to Europe with a very low birth rate where resources are plentiful, there is no people starving, and people can receive top-quality health care. If European birth rates went up to African levels it would be likely result in a strain on resources, congestion on existing infrastructure whether it be health care or benefits services, and much less disposable income as children are very expensive to care for.

Many would rather just blame Africa's situation on European colonialism, and not look beyond that.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

In Africa what is already a very poor continent the average woman is having about five children. Having to care for these children is obviously putting a strain on families, and when people are already facing starvation and famine it seems foolish to continue to reproduce at this rate.

It's also a continent with a poor track record on women's rights, which ties to fertility. Plus traditions where the young take care of the old, which, in the absence of a social safety net, may be a reason to have more children.

 

[L2R]

also a lack of education, birth control and opportunity to lead challenging and fulfilling lives might have a tiny itsy bitsy bit to do with it.

 

[LosBlancos]

also a lack of education, birth control and opportunity to lead challenging and fulfilling lives might have a tiny itsy bitsy bit to do with it.

That's true but would you agree that a high birth rate could correlate with high poverty? If in the short-term resources are finite, then the larger the pool of people relying on the same resources, the less there is for each individual.

 

[L2R]

That's true but would you agree that a high birth rate could correlate with high poverty?

indirectly, yes. poverty has many consequences which lead to higher birth rates.

If in the short-term resources are finite, then the larger the pool of people relying on the same resources, the less there is for each individual.

so the best way to break this cycle is through enabling those most affected by regional scarcity (i.e. welfare).

 

[LosBlancos]

indirectly, yes. poverty has many consequences which lead to higher birth rates.

So you're sure poverty causes high birth rates? Rather than high birth-rates causing poverty? What do you base this off of?

In the top 20 countries with the lowest birth rates are:

19. Bulgaria, which has 9.3 births per 1,000 people and a per capita GDP of $7,200 per year

16. Serbia with 9.19 births per 1,000 people and a per capita GDP of $5,900

11. Bosnia and Herzegovina with 8.9 births per 1,000 people and a per capita GDP of $4,655

All these countries would be considered impoverished, yet they maintain low-birth rates, how do you explain this?

so the best way to break this cycle is through enabling those most affected by regional scarcity (i.e. welfare).

What do you draw this conclusion from? Where will these countries raise tax revenues from?

Has throwing money at a problem ever helped? If you look at America's huge liberal cities you would large sums of money spent on welfare, public school system, health care, ect and yet there continues to be high instances of teenage pregnancy. By the government dishing out welfare, they have effectively taken away the need for personal responsibility, people don't worry about getting pregnant at a young age, they know the government will send them a larger cheque every month, provide them with formula and diapers, and health care for their children. It hasn't been shown to rectify the problem.

 

[L2R]

So you're sure poverty causes high birth rates? Rather than high birth-rates causing poverty? What do you base this off of?

In the top 20 countries with the lowest birth rates are:

19. Bulgaria, which has 9.3 births per 1,000 people and a per capita GDP of $7,200 per year

16. Serbia with 9.19 births per 1,000 people and a per capita GDP of $5,900

11. Bosnia and Herzegovina with 8.9 births per 1,000 people and a per capita GDP of $4,655

All these countries would be considered impoverished, yet they maintain low-birth rates, how do you explain this?

gdp is not a measurement of poverty.
also, re-read my reply. i said that there is an indirect correlation.

What do you draw this conclusion from? Where will these countries raise tax revenues from?

From the taxes brought in from higher consumption, and therefore demand on goods and services, and then in turn on the salary tax from the jobs created by this demand.

Jobs are not created from the benelovence of business. They are created by business exploitation of market forces. When people can afford to spend money, they create market forces which create jobs.

an economy is more about the healthy circulation of currency than it is about federal and state budgets.

 

[LosBlancos]

gdp is not a measurement of poverty.
also, re-read my reply. i said that there is an indirect correlation.

What's your favourite measurement of poverty? Would you say I'm being disingenuous, are Bosnia, Serbia, and Bulgaria considered to be wealthy countries to you? By which metric?

From the taxes brought in from higher consumption, and therefore demand on goods and services, and then in turn on the salary tax from the jobs created by this demand.

So the African government should raise taxes to address the problem?

Jobs are not created from the benelovence of business. They are created by business exploitation of market forces. .

Yes, I suppose every person with a job is horribly exploited. I'm sure the migrants coming from Mexico accustomed to earning $10 a day performing backbreaking labour feel exploited as well when they come here and earn 10 times that in a day.

 

[L2R]

What's your favourite measurement of poverty? Would you say I'm being disingenuous, are Bosnia, Serbia, and Bulgaria considered to be wealthy countries to you? By which metric?

poverty is measured at the individual scale, not the national. you're speaking the wrong language entirely for this.

So the African government should raise taxes to address the problem?

i didn't say anything like this

Yes, I suppose every person with a job is horribly exploited. I'm sure the migrants coming from Mexico accustomed to earning $10 a day performing backbreaking labour feel exploited as well when they come here and earn 10 times that in a day.

*ahem*cost of living /cough

but anyway, how is that even a response to what i posted? that doesn't address it at all. it's like you changed the subject after quoting me.

 

[LosBlancos]

poverty is measured at the individual scale, not the national. you're speaking the wrong language entirely for this

An exercise in being as pedantic as possible and avoiding discussion of anything of substance.

*ahem*cost of living /cough

People sure are going through a lot of trouble to move somewhere with a higher cost of living, oh wait, even considering the cost of living the higher wages of United States still mean a vastly higher quality of life which is why South Americans and Mexicans are flocking here. So what's the use of mentioning this at all?

but anyway, how is that even a response to what i posted? that doesn't address it at all. it's like you changed the subject after quoting me.

You posted a bunch of crap about exploitation. You should know I interned before, not earning not a single dollar for months. It was done on my own volition, if you consider it exploitation then suit yourself. Want to see exploitation, there is still slavery across Pakistan, India and many other countries of that region. I'm sure that doesn't interest you however. Saying "jobs are brought on by "exploitation of market forces" is just laughable.

 

[L2R]

An exercise in being as pedantic as possible and avoiding discussion of anything of substance.

sure, if you don't know the meanings of words

People sure are going through a lot of trouble to move somewhere with a higher cost of living, oh wait, even considering the cost of living the higher wages of United States still mean a vastly higher quality of life which is why South Americans and Mexicans are flocking here. So what's the use of mentioning this at all?

good question. you brought it up inexplicably.

You posted a bunch of crap about exploitation.

exploitation of markets. have another read. you might learn something. lol

You should know I interned before, not earning not a single dollar for months. It was done on my own volition, if you consider it exploitation then suit yourself. Want to see exploitation, there is still slavery across Pakistan, India and many other countries of that region. I'm sure that doesn't interest you however. Saying "jobs are brought on by "exploitation of market forces" is just laughable.

bravo. your conclusion doesn't even match your predicate. well done.