The Ferguson Thread: Part II

[nuttynutskin]

Justice Dept. to Recommend No Civil Rights Charges in Ferguson Shooting

Justice Dept. to Recommend No Civil Rights Charges in Ferguson Shooting

By MATT APUZZO and MICHAEL S. SCHMIDTJAN. 21, 2015

WASHINGTON — Justice Department lawyers will recommend that no civil rights charges be brought against the police officer involved in the fatal shooting of an unarmed teenager in Ferguson, Mo., after an F.B.I. investigation found no evidence to support charges, law enforcement officials said Wednesday.

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. and his civil rights chief, Vanita Gupta, will have the final say on whether the Justice Department will close the case against the officer, Darren Wilson. But it would be unusual for them to overrule the prosecutors on the case, who are still working on a legal memo explaining their recommendation.

A decision by the Justice Department would bring to an end to the politically charged investigation of Mr. Wilson in the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown. Missouri authorities concluded their investigation into Mr. Brown’s death in November and also recommended against charges.

But a broader Justice Department civil rights investigation into allegations of discriminatory traffic stops and excessive force by the Ferguson Police Department remains open. That investigation could lead to significant changes at the department, which is overwhelmingly white despite serving a city that is mostly black.

Benjamin L. Crump, a lawyer for Mr. Brown’s family, said he did not want to comment on the investigation until the Justice Department made an official announcement.

“We’ve heard speculation on cases before that didn’t turn out to be true,” Mr. Crump said. “It’s too much to put the family through to respond to every rumor.”

The lawyer for Mr. Wilson did not return calls for comment.

Mr. Brown’s death touched off protests and violent clashes between demonstrators and heavily armed police in Ferguson. The incident, along with the death of Eric Garner — an unarmed black man who died after a chokehold by a New York police officer in July — sparked a nationwide discussion about policing, race and the use of deadly force.

President Obama, Mr. Holder and Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York, speaking about the issue in personal terms, said they understood the concern that minority neighborhoods had with the police. Those comments prompted rebukes from some law enforcement groups.

Soon after the shooting, witnesses told reporters that Mr. Brown had his hands up in a gesture of surrender when he was shot and killed by Mr. Wilson on a city street.

The F.B.I. investigation, however, painted a murkier picture. Mr. Wilson told investigators that Mr. Brown tussled with him through the window of his police car and tried to grab his gun, an account supported by bruises and DNA evidence. Two shots were fired during that struggle.

What happened next as the confrontation moved into the street is in dispute. While some witnesses were adamant that Mr. Brown had his hands up, some recanted their stories. Mr. Wilson testified that Mr. Brown charged at him, and other witnesses backed up his account.

“I’m backpedaling pretty good because I know if he reaches me, he’ll kill me,” Mr. Wilson told a state grand jury, in testimony that investigators said was consistent with what he told the F.B.I. “And he had started to lean forward as he got that close, like he was going to just tackle me, just go right through me,” Mr. Wilson said.

Mr. Holder said that the Justice Department’s investigation into Mr. Brown’s death would be independent from the one conducted by local authorities. While the F.B.I. and local officials conducted some interviews together and shared evidence, the analysis and decision-making were separate. Mr. Holder resisted calls from local officials to announce his conclusion alongside the county prosecutor last year, in part because he did not want it to appear as if they had reached their decisions together.

Federal investigators interviewed more than 200 people and analyzed cellphone audio and video, the law enforcement officials said. Officer Wilson’s gun, clothing and other evidence were analyzed at the F.B.I.’s laboratory in Quantico, Va. Though the local authorities and Mr. Brown’s family conducted autopsies, Mr. Holder ordered a separate autopsy, which was conducted by pathologists from the Armed Forces Medical Examiner’s office at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, the officials said.

The federal investigation did not uncover any facts that differed significantly from the evidence made public by the authorities in Missouri late last year, the law enforcement officials said. To bring federal civil rights charges, the Justice Department would have needed to prove that Officer Wilson had intended to violate Mr. Brown’s rights when he had opened fire and that he had done so willfully — meaning he knew that it was wrong to fire, but did so anyway.

The Justice Department plans to release a report explaining its decision, though it is not clear when. Dena Iverson, a department spokeswoman, declined to comment on the case Wednesday.

The Ferguson investigation drew Mr. Holder into the spotlight on the issue of race, one he cares about deeply. He traveled to Ferguson, spoke of his experiences as a victim of racial profiling and emerged as a peacemaker during the tense days after the shooting, when police used tear gas on demonstrators and the National Guard was summoned.

The shooting also inflamed longstanding tensions between Ferguson’s black community and the police. Residents told investigators that the police used traffic citations in minority neighborhoods as a way to raise money for the city.

“These anecdotal accounts underscored the history of mistrust of law enforcement in Ferguson,” Mr. Holder said in September after returning from Ferguson, a suburb about 10 miles northwest of St. Louis.

It is not clear when the broader civil rights inquiry of the police department, known as a pattern or practice investigation, will be completed. Under Mr. Holder, prosecutors have opened more than 20 such investigations nationwide. The Justice Department recently called for sweeping changes to the Cleveland Police Department and negotiated an independent monitor to oversee the department in Albuquerque.

Mr. Wilson resigned from the department in November, citing threats of violence against him and other officers. “It is my hope that my resignation will allow the community to heal,” he said.

Mayor James Knowles III of Ferguson did not respond Wednesday afternoon to a voice mail message and email seeking comment about the broader federal investigation of his city’s police department. Jeff Small, a Ferguson spokesman, said city officials did not have any new information to share about either federal probe and would not comment on them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/22/u...ferguson-civil-rights-darren-wilson.html?_r=0

 

[LosBlancos]

Like I said, compared to other nations in the global North, we haven't spent a great deal. I also wouldn't expect a mere quarter more spending on schools than the national average to have that dramatic an effect, particularly in that expensive of an area (the majority of any district's costs is labor).

I'm not sure if spending more would solve the problem, after all if you look at China (even considering purchasing power parity) they spend much less than the United States per student and get much better test scores than us on average.

If you look at this graphic here, you'd see Chicago spent significantly more per pupil than every city besides NYC (of the largest 7 school districts) yet had the lowest graduation rate at only 58%.

I would say that wage-labor is typically exploitative, as owners of capital retain the majority of the wealth created by their employees' labor, mainly by virtue of claims of property ownership (but also in part by creativity and risk-taking sometimes).

With any business venture there is risk-taking, otherwise everyone with money would be starting their own companies or buying property, ect. Workers have the benefit of guaranteed wages, I could start a restaurant and pay employees $10 an hour and if I don't have enough business I could loose $100's of thousands. This is entirely why the owner who takes the risk can also benefit immensely if they are successful.

Also, "claims of ownership" there's some people that have no doubt saved for decades to be able to buy a factory, to "own the means of production", or start a business. They made smart investments, were responsible with their money and benefit from it. Simple as that, I would not advocate Communism which is nothing more than a large-scale armed robbery.

Right, but then the benefit of overhauling severe systemic injustice would be immeasurably great for innumerable people (depending on how fucked you consider the status-quo).

My best guess is even if today we gave every poor person $100,000 or even $1,000,000, for many by the end of the year they would have spent all of it. Look at lottery winner's if you want to see what people not accustomed with money will do with it in short time. There's a huge percentage of lottery winners that go bankrupt very soon after winning vast sums of money, giving people a bunch of money will not solve their problems.

Okay...most research assistants aren't so abjectly unethical.

ebola

Any evidence of this? We have essentially no raw data from this particular study, besides what the researchers claim. They sent out resumes/CV's to these employers, but do we see evidence they sent them out? They tabulated e-mail responses and call-backs but can we see them to double check the numbers they claim?

 

[LosBlancos]

clearly.

to say that people become poor after breeding more is assuming that there is a common and equal starting point, which in reality there isn't.

Well, they obviously become poorer. The average child in middle-class America costs about $250,000 to raise from birth to the age of 18. The poor probably spend less but still a significant sum. It's alot of money spent on food, clothes, health, everything. The more kids you have the more expensive it is, that should be pretty clear.

So even if the starting points are unequal, one doesn't really have much room to complain if you regress from that starting point by having numerous children and drop out of high-school in your teens. Your basically ensuring your kids don't have a good starting point, not society, if you make that choice.

So in most cases you don't become poor after having children, but having children will certainly make you more poor. It's like complaining that the house is hot during the summer, and rather than turning on the air-conditioner you turn on the heat. Obviously people don't like being poor, but think of all the money that could be saved if you can work rather than having to stay home with the kids, pay for daycare, diapers, formula, clothes, all of that stuff. If you don't like being poor, don't make yourself poorer, and I can get a bag full of free condoms at every health clinic here easily so there's no good excuse.

 

[L2R]

Well, they obviously become poorer. The average child in middle-class America costs about $250,000 to raise from birth to the age of 18. The poor probably spend less but still a significant sum. It's alot of money spent on food, clothes, health, everything. The more kids you have the more expensive it is, that should be pretty clear.

So even if the starting points are unequal, one doesn't really have much room to complain if you regress from that starting point by having numerous children and drop out of high-school in your teens. Your basically ensuring your kids don't have a good starting point, not society, if you make that choice.

So in most cases you don't become poor after having children, but having children will certainly make you more poor. It's like complaining that the house is hot during the summer, and rather than turning on the air-conditioner you turn on the heat. Obviously people don't like being poor, but think of all the money that could be saved if you can work rather than having to stay home with the kids, pay for daycare, diapers, formula, clothes, all of that stuff. If you don't like being poor, don't make yourself poorer, and I can get a bag full of free condoms at every health clinic here easily so there's no good excuse.

a reasonable response, which i actually agree with.

now consider that unequal starting point a little more. how does that lead to more children? recall earlier that i mentioned a lack of education and opportunity, and access to health care and (in the case of the third world, the context of our earlier conversation) birth control. these are forces which combine in order to make the simple choice (for you and me) not as simple as it seems.

you don't know what you don't know. (you = the general human, not you specifically losblancos)

without support, how can a person in a less fortunate position know to choose better? not every parent is educate or capable. when there are generations of over-breeding due to undersupportiveness, then a parent's capacity to guide each child diminishes too, making each of those children less capable parents when they grow up too. it's a terrible cycle, and blaming anyone isn't really helpful.

the only way to stop people being poor is to enable them to choose better. the problems here are only exacerbated by persecution.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Its a bit far fetched to take a study of 8,000 applications sent out and blacks having lower rates of responses and extrapolating that it shows systemic racism across the United States.

Except it isn't one study. What we see (and what I've mentioned) in similar studies with renting, a bias is shown. Same with other studies, such as the implicit assumption test with regards to race. While in real life, which obviously is harder to control all the variables, we still see a clear correlation of race and uneven outcomes.

So the evidence is quite strong.

Also these kind of studies take a long time to perform I believe it was conducted at a university. Personally I know I've made up data before and on a study that requires sending out thousands of applications I wouldn't be surprised if someone cut corners to save time or produce result s that a far left university will like.

If you want to say that your feels is more important than the reals to you when it comes to decision making, go ahead. But you're going to get a lot of people who reject your conclusions based on your gut opinion.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I'm not sure if spending more would solve the problem, after all if you look at China (even considering purchasing power parity) they spend much less than the United States per student and get much better test scores than us on average.

If you look at this graphic here, you'd see Chicago spent significantly more per pupil than every city besides NYC (of the largest 7 school districts) yet had the lowest graduation rate at only 58%.

Just googling for information, I find that graduation rates and per-pupil spending seem to have a positive correlation overall on a state-by-state basis. On the other hand, there are states that do rather well with low per-pupil spending, and other states that do poorly with high per-pupil spending.

It would be interesting to see if there are any studies examining the educational outcomes of students that moved from an underperforming state to an overperforming state.

 

[LosBlancos]

Just googling for information, I find that graduation rates and per-pupil spending seem to have a positive correlation overall on a state-by-state basis. On the other hand, there are states that do rather well with low per-pupil spending, and other states that do poorly with high per-pupil spending.

I'm failing to see how spending more get's kids to graduate. Unless maybe you actually gave them money to go to school, which is actually already the case more-or-less. If you perform well in high-school you can end up getting a scholarship or even grants to offset the costs of college, basically saving anywhere from a couple thousand to tens of thousands a year. If your "disadvantaged" you have pretty good chance of a grant given decent grades.

Where specifically would you put the money into as far as helping inner-city schools? I'm finding it hard to understand how China can be outperforming us while spending significantly less even given PPP, and still have it boil down to spending.

Consider China's culture of discipline, strong families, and dedication with the worship of rap music in America's inner-cities which glamorizes violence, fast money, and a lavish lifestyle. The values of delayed gratification are being lost completely.

 

[ebola?]

Any evidence of this? We have essentially no raw data from this particular study, besides what the researchers claim. They sent out resumes/CV's to these employers, but do we see evidence they sent them out? They tabulated e-mail responses and call-backs but can we see them to double check the numbers they claim?

Why would you expect widespread fraud in the absence of significant reward for doing so?
Put otherwise, why you would expect most researchers to act like you would?

ebola

 

[LosBlancos]

Why would you expect widespread fraud in the absence of significant reward for doing so?
Put otherwise, why would expect most researchers to act like you would?

ebola

Speaking from experience, I've sent out in excess of 300 resumes in between jobs (or while employed to see if I can land one with even higher salary) before. Filling out applications and changing my cover letter for specific jobs takes a long, long time. The significant reward for would be saving time and the arduous task of repeating the process 8,000 times.

Not to mention I doubt their university would like to hear that call-back rates were essentially the same, that would shatter the usual academia ethos of the white privilege being a common stream running through American society.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I'm failing to see how spending more get's kids to graduate.

So you're failing to see how more resources would help kids academically?

Where specifically would you put the money into as far as helping inner-city schools? I'm finding it hard to understand how China can be outperforming us while spending significantly less even given PPP, and still have it boil down to spending.

I'd use that nasty liberal "science" that you are so unfond of, look at current differences between school districts, try to find a difference, and then try out various solutions at different schools, looking for changes in the result.

Or I'd bribe a few lobbyists & PR people so that congresscritters must put their family members in the lowest performing school in their district.

 

[LosBlancos]

So you're failing to see how more resources would help kids academically?

I don't, not when they are not using the resources at their disposal currently. Public libraries are there with books on any subject imaginable and internet access, many kids choose to not go and study after school or during the summer. They might prioritize posting on social media over gaining more pertinent knowledge for their career.

I'd use that nasty liberal "science" that you are so unfond of, look at current differences between school districts, try to find a difference, and then try out various solutions at different schools, looking for changes in the result.p

I would think such a study would have already been done. I'm still failing to understand how the issue is spending when so many countries spend less per pupil and consistently outperform us.

 

[LosBlancos]

$175000 on a study to determine if cocaine makes Japanese quails have risky sexual behaviour

$400000 on a National Health Institute Study to find out why Argentina's gay men engage in risky sexual behaviour when intoxicated

$800000 spent to study impact of a genital washing program in South Africa

Our government sure does love science Escher's

 

[ebola?]

Do you understand how one generalizes externally from more specific empirical study? Eg, that Japanese study isn't just about birds...

 

[LosBlancos]

Do you understand how one generalizes externally from more specific empirical study? Eg, that Japanese study isn't just about birds...

So it's a good use of taxpayer money then? Is that what I'm gathering from your statement.

 

[LosBlancos]

I see the Ferguson movement is still going strong

According to the Detroit Free Press her witness statement was so emotional that tissues were passed around the courtroom.
Young and Hunter were convicted of the 2012 murders of Kudla and Bobbish in December and police say they robbed the teenagers before shooting them dead, execution style.
Five days after the murders their bodies were found in an empty lot on Detroit's east side.
Their bodies were found in a trash-strewn field overgrown by weeds near Detroit's city airport, not far from the drug house where they were forced into a car's trunk.
They'd been shot in the head.


Before he was sentenced, Young gave a long, rambling statement. He began by apologzing to the families of Eric Garner and Michael Brown and ended with, 'Hands up. Don't shoot. Black lives matter.'
There was no indication that he has been the victim of police violence or was in any way acquainted with the cases he mentioned.
Hunter did not speak.
In addition to his new sentences, Hunter is already serving two other life sentences, including one for the murder of a Vietnam War Veteran, John Villneff.
Police have said that the two teens were trying to buy prescription drugs from the pair before they stripped them at gun point and put them in their car trunk.
Witnesses to the killings said the two boys pleaded with the men to spare them before they were shot dead.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tenced-life-without-parole.html#ixzz3PbbVVeZ1
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

So it's a good use of taxpayer money then? Is that what I'm gathering from your statement.

The first one you cited seemed to be more along the lines of basic research, which tends to have huge payoffs in the long term. The second and third are applied research, both of which are trying to figure out how to reduce the spread of diseases.

Try again.

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

It would be interesting to see if there are any studies examining the educational outcomes of students that moved from an underperforming state to an overperforming state.

I don't think looking at it by state will give a very accurate picture. Me, for example-- I grew up in the Deep South, in a state that is a perennial contender for worst performing students in the country. Then, as a young adult, I moved to Massachusetts, the state which usually comes out on top in this ranking. I didn't actually attend the schools here, but I can gather from my experiences here that there is a significant similarity between the two areas-- the difference in school achievement comes down largely to the individual school and the individual communities. Looking at the issue on the state level is far too broad. The public school I went to in the South was actually not that bad of a school as the area was a hotbed of engineering and many of the students at my school came from wealthy families. Here in Massachusetts, there are certainly amazing schools that children can attend if they are lucky, but there are poor ones as well. Private schools are extremely popular here especially in urban areas, and the result is often that so many middle class kids go to private schools that the public schools are literally filled with children from families who cannot afford better schools. Getting back to my original point, a study of students moving from one state to another tells very little as most of the variation between good and bad schools occurs within the state level.

--------


I agree with a lot of what Los Blancos has said about government spending on schools. In my view, the issue is not of a shortage of funds but of inefficiencies and corruption in the educational system. Throwing more money at the problem in my view is actually the worst thing that we could do. Now don't get me wrong-- I would love to see better paid teachers at our schools, teaching the children of our nation. However, I don't expect that any considerable portion of money given to schools at this point in time would be used to attract better teachers. I would expect the money to be used for administrative costs and infrastructure (in some cases necessary, in others, not.) The Republican answer to this problem seems to be charter schools and forcing schools to be better with their money by virtue of market forces but I don't think that is the answer either. Something I'd be more supportive would be something like a federal subsidy given directly to teachers with the goal of attracting more qualified candidates. This would ensure that money isn't just thrown at schools in a wishful hope that things get better. The bottom line is that we need better teachers and this would work to create exactly that.

 

[Birc0014]

So maybe this has been covered but did anyone see the convenience store footage of Brown doing the grab and 'dash' just before the shooting? Is it possible the kid was just high and or pissed about something and ran across the wrong cop on the wrong day?

I'm not condoning shooting anyone unarmed or otherwise unless absolutely necessary or even thinking about touching the race issue here. Whats the likelihood this happens to a white, brown, yellow, or polka dot, coloured kid that size in that state who runs across an idiot with a gun, badge, and adrenaline coursing through his veins?

 

[LosBlancos]

The first one you cited seemed to be more along the lines of basic research, which tends to have huge payoffs in the long term. The second and third are applied research, both of which are trying to figure out how to reduce the spread of diseases.

Try again.

I'll be waiting for the conclusion on the effect of cocaine on the sexual habits of quails.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I'll be waiting for the conclusion on the effect of cocaine on the sexual habits of quails.

It would be interesting to see if drug use in on avian species has any effect on their habits, like what we'd expect in humans.

If the answer is true, then we can correlate that with previous knowledge and see if it is consistent.

If not, we can try to figure out how our brains and their brains differ, or if our presumption of the effects in humans is accurate. For an example of the latter, there's been some talk recently about drug addiction in humans - since it actually appears our earlier studies on drug use in animals were misleading and addiction doesn't work the way it does in stereotypes.