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The Ferguson Thread: Part II

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i don't see where i accused you of lying at all. but it is certainly interesting that's how you took the comment...

my comment was more a generalised comment that statistics can easily be bent to make a case. that goes both ways. perhaps you're not familiar with the reference?

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." (wikipedia article)

alasdair
 
Los Blancos said:
Let me guess the high rate of out of wedlock births is due to KKK members putting afrodisiacs in Black people's food and hiding the condoms?

You might want to refrain from guessing next time, as you appear inordinately unskilled at surmising others' opinions.

ebola
 
You might want to refrain from guessing next time, as you appear inordinately unskilled at surmising others' opinions.

I was being facetious, it does seem that in some people's minds every ailment of the Black community is prescribed as being caused by the external forces and there is little personal accountability whatsoever.

i don't see where i accused you of lying at all. but it is certainly interesting that's how you took the comment...

See typically in lieu of a quotation of someone else's post I typically assume the post immediately preceding mine is referencing me or my post. I stand corrected. I'm not familiar with the reference.

my comment was more a generalised comment that statistics can easily be bent to make a case. that goes both ways. perhaps you're not familiar with the reference?

alasdair

Yes, it does indeed require a great deal of bending when someone says a 7% difference isn't a lot for total rates, yet neglects to say that Whites with 7% less of total murders actually has 192,000,000 more people than African-Americans. I suppose the details can sometimes be inconvenient.

Bear in mind, these statistics on crime I don't bring up to tear down African-Americans and label them as criminals but it's quite convoluted to bring up the disproportionate number of police shootings against Blacks while disregarding the much higher crime rate which often results in armed confrontations with the police. On the typical year there is an average of 400 killings by police recorded, the vast majority of which are justifiable as they had been shot at, or had a gun drawn on them, or been charged at with a knife, ect. Now when you consider that Chicago on an average year records about 400-500 homicides alone, it seems police killings are a drop in the bucket in comparison

FYI, I personally could care less about whether United States is the top immigrant destination or the bottom, but the piece that described it as average used a very convoluted metric to do so. I would consider places like Andorra or Monaco as outliers, they're just tax havens with extremely small populations to begin with.
 
I was being facetious, it does seem that in some people's minds every ailment of the Black community is prescribed as being caused by the external forces and there is little personal accountability whatsoever.

it only seems that way because you don't understand that no one arguing contrary to you on bluelight has ever actually said this. you interpret things as black and white, where we don't discuss things so superficially. reality is not that simple, so your oversimplifying interpretations repeatedly get in the way of the messages you are misreading over and over. hence the source of all of your straw man arguments.
 
it only seems that way because you don't understand that no one arguing contrary to you on bluelight has ever actually said this. .

They've said it implicitly that is for sure, just with far more convoluted language and grandiose verbage. I boiled down the argument to the bare essentials.

Inner-city violence? Caused by lax gun control laws.
Low graduation rates? Caused by disproportionate suspensions.
Higher arrest rates? Caused by racial profiling.

More and more ways of separating everyone from personal accountability. We've even introduced a new one in this thread "ancestral trauma". Choose to have numerous children at a young age, choose to drop out of high school, choose to commit crimes, all choices but I suppose we still have a "get out of jail" card so to speak when you could just say that someone making those choices was lead down that path not do to their own foolishness but rather guided by nefarious forces, due to "ancestral trauma" someone can be possessed Exorcist style having no control over their free will.
 
They've said it implicitly that is for sure, just with far more convoluted language and grandiose verbage. I boiled down the argument to the bare essentials.

I'm sorry that you're having trouble understanding some of the points being made. Please feel free to ask for clarification when anything is unclear.

ebola
 
i'd like to see some examples of

lostverbosity said:
convoluted language and grandiose verbage

i thought i was paying attention, but it seems i have not, for i haven't notice any. it's been fairly low brow as far as i've seen.

please quote bump one or three examples
 
Whoa: the following interview with Judith Butler is both topical and comprehensible. I think that it does well in linking wider socio-historical forces, diffuse cultural forms and social technologies through which we render each other identifiable and comprehensible, and on-the-ground practices of violence. In particular, it begins to specify the fashion in which black lives don't matter in our society and how we got to this point

ebola

One particular gem right here. Seems like a page from the Social Justice Warrior handbook. I suppose it does have more substance than accusing everything of being either A. a straw man argument or B. a fallacy.

Black lives don't matter in our society? Must be why Michael Brown were on every newspaper and magazine for months following their deaths, must be why White victims that haven't robbed a convenience store or attacked an officer yet were heinously killed only get the smallest fraction of the media attention in comparison.
 
First of all, that link was in no way related to this discussion.

Secondly, even if a study found it was more difficult to get an apartment as a Black person than a white (both with similar incomes) I don't follow where having to apply for a few more apartments would somehow lead to a snowball effect of other horrible outcomes.

Assuming that people, regardless of race have the same demand for shelter, if one group has a decreased supply, what does that result in? Economics 101, this isn't a hard question.

Not to mention that a lack of flexibility in living arrangements can cause further difficulty for the poor - harder to escape a bad living situation, harder to find a good school district for the children, harder to find a place to live with easy access to bus routes, etc.

You're either ignorant of, ignoring, or appearing to recklessly reject the concept of intersectionality - how many small biases end up compounding one another - it's a racial bias gestalt.

According to this study (http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...men-as-much-as-incarceration-hurts-black-men/) Black women account for about 9% of the population in Milwaukee yet represent 30% of the evictions. Surprisingly enough, many landlords likely wouldn't be too thrilled about regularly receiving late rent payments or none at all and having to go through a lengthy government process of having a tenant evicted so perhaps some would rather mitigate that risk by choosing applicants less likely to require eviction.

The free market is a beautiful thing though, I think most people even those with racist tendencies would lease an apartment to someone with proof of stable income. It's hard to imagine some people would prefer to loose money or have a property sitting there uninhabited simply because they choose not to rent to a minority.

Except in the study, the income didn't differ.

So if you get suspended you can no longer complete high school? Where's the evidence that white students do more "suspension-worthy" acts? There's absolutely nothing stopping any Black student from going to school everyday and graduating high school, it's a matter of personal choice. It's shameful you'd blame racism on a 68% graduation race.

Are you claiming an environment where black students are more likely to be discipline or suspended even though there's no evidence they commit more infractions is conductive to continued learning?

Let me guess the high rate of out of wedlock births is due to KKK members putting afrodisiacs in Black people's food and hiding the condoms?

Actually, it's due to poverty. Black men, on average, make less and have less wealth. They aren't considered as desirable as husbands. Not to mention relationship stress from financial difficulties.

If you seriously cared about poverty and race in America, the research isn't hard to find, especially in this day and age. You keep giving me the impression that you'd rather not learn.

That's the reality in Chicago and in New York city. I didn't realize we were discussing your city exclusively.

So you're taking the raw numbers from the most populated city in the US, and the third most populated city in the US, and considering them to be typical?

Only when it suits your position I suppose. Look at the countries on the most popular immigrant destinations, it doesn't tell the whole picture. Andorra only has about 80,000 citizens, so add a few boats worth of migrants and it's already at a huge percentage relative to the population. Monaco is also on the top list, and it only has 35,000 people. Hard to compare percentage of foreign born people when the United States has 316 Million people.

Actually, no, that's what per capita does compare.
 
One particular gem right here. Seems like a page from the Social Justice Warrior handbook. I suppose it does have more substance than accusing everything of being either A. a straw man argument or B. a fallacy.

1 - ebola talks like that. for several years i have had regular instant messager conversations with him, it is how he talks. you need to concentrate, and even sometimes google to understand. his vocabulary is quite expansive, but his verbiage is succint and substantial.
2 - a straw man argument IS a fallacy. it is one kind of common fallacies, common enough to have a name.
 
Assuming that people, regardless of race have the same demand for shelter, if one group has a decreased supply, what does that result in? Economics 101, this isn't a hard question.

Not to mention that a lack of flexibility in living arrangements can cause further difficulty for the poor - harder to escape a bad living situation, harder to find a good school district for the children, harder to find a place to live with easy access to bus routes, etc.

Wait, are we discussing Black people or poor people? I'm genuinely confused. If we're discussing poor people then quite possibly their income is the prohibitive factor in getting the housing they want rather than the colour of their skin. Maybe it seems like ancient history but not too long ago we had a bust in the housing market as credit was freely extended by banks and too many people took on mortgage obligations that they couldn't fulfill. There's a decreased supply of housing amongst Black people? So is there a lot of homeless people that have good credit and steady income but they just can't find a residence due to racist landlords not letting them lease?

Are you claiming an environment where black students are more likely to be discipline or suspended even though there's no evidence they commit more infractions is conductive to continued learning?

Where's your evidence they commit less "suspension worthy offences"? If there's none, then why draw any conclusions on the fact they are suspended at higher rates than white students?

Actually, it's due to poverty. Black men, on average, make less and have less wealth. They aren't considered as desirable as husbands. Not to mention relationship stress from financial difficulties.

That explains out of wedlock birth? So women wouldn't want a poor man as a husband but would want one as the father of their child? Maybe just maybe, the less and less wealth and financial difficulties arise from having to support numerous children when your 20 and don't have a high school diploma rather than the converse of hey I'm 18 and don't have any money or education, I'm going to have as many kids as possible.

So you're taking the raw numbers from the most populated city in the US, and the third most populated city in the US, and considering them to be typical?

You seemed to like taking immigrant population percentages as indicator of "desirable countries to live in" from Andorra and Monaco, two of the least populated countries in the world, do you think those are typical?

OK, for what it's worth other cities have a murder every other day, or twice a week, yet would have much higher rates of violence based on their size. It doesn't change the fact that the police will be out in those areas as it's their job to prevent crime and most likely searching people trying to get guns off the street and keep a presence out there to deter crime, do to this likely more Black teens will get arrested for drugs. Many white kids are likely smoking weed in nice suburban communities that have no crime problems and the police don't have nearly as much to worry about. That explains that difference for you.
 
Los Blancos said:
That explains out of wedlock birth?

To a large extent, yes. When one is largely trapped in an environment bereft of economic opportunities and where extended families more often cohabitate, largely out of necessity, you have less economic compulsion to marry when pregnant (a very large percentage of pregnancies are unplanned among all demographics). Regardless of what we tell ourselves, we base decisions to marry in large part on economic concerns (be the influence unconscious or the result of explicit reasoning, it demonstrates its presence in the statistics).

Maybe just maybe, the less and less wealth and financial difficulties arise from having to support numerous children when your 20 and don't have a high school diploma rather than the converse of hey I'm 18 and don't have any money or education, I'm going to have as many kids as possible.

This is not borne out by the relevant data--the conditions of financial hardship tend to predate childbearing, and rates of childbirth among impoverished inner-city African-Americans are not overall elevated, nor do the correlate longitudinally with provision of welfare benefits.

ebola
 
This is not borne out by the relevant data--the conditions of financial hardship tend to predate childbearing, and rates of childbirth among impoverished inner-city African-Americans are not overall elevated, nor do the correlate longitudinally with provision of welfare benefits.

ebola

But financial hardship is exacerbated by children isn't that clear? Children cost a lot of money to raise. If you look at Europe they have a very low birth rate and most countries have a high standard of living.

Look at the top countries in terms of births per capita, the first half of the list (highest birthrates) are largely underdeveloped impoverished places. As you get lower on the list (lower birthrates) you'll see more and more wealthy countries. Not having to take care of as many kids means less money spent on health care, having to watch your kid instead of working, paying for education, loads of expenses. Raising a kid from birth to the age of 18 in America for a typical Middle-Class family costs about $245,000 altogether, you don't think having one let alone 3 or 4 could esentially lock people into poverty? By their own volition.
 
Wait, are we discussing Black people or poor people? I'm genuinely confused. If we're discussing poor people then quite possibly their income is the prohibitive factor in getting the housing they want rather than the colour of their skin. Maybe it seems like ancient history but not too long ago we had a bust in the housing market as credit was freely extended by banks and too many people took on mortgage obligations that they couldn't fulfill. There's a decreased supply of housing amongst Black people? So is there a lot of homeless people that have good credit and steady income but they just can't find a residence due to racist landlords not letting them lease?

If you weren't aware, black households, on average, have a lower income and a lower net worth compared to households of other races. Blacks are disproportionately represented among the poor.

Where's your evidence they commit less "suspension worthy offences"? If there's none, then why draw any conclusions on the fact they are suspended at higher rates than white students?

I said their is no evidence that they commit less suspension worthy offenses. Here's the source for that statement.

That explains out of wedlock birth? So women wouldn't want a poor man as a husband but would want one as the father of their child? Maybe just maybe, the less and less wealth and financial difficulties arise from having to support numerous children when your 20 and don't have a high school diploma rather than the converse of hey I'm 18 and don't have any money or education, I'm going to have as many kids as possible.

People tend to have sex. Most pregnancies are unplanned. Black non-hispanics, on average, have 0.2 to 0.3 children more than white women (source). So if you took a group of 5 black women, and 5 white women, there'd be a total of one more black child than white children.

Of course, fertility rates vary by income (source). This may be due to education affecting both results, or it may be due to other factors such as the poor deciding to focus more on children than work. I wouldn't be surprised that if the fertility rates are corrected for race, we'd fine little or no difference.

You seemed to like taking immigrant population percentages as indicator of "desirable countries to live in" from Andorra and Monaco, two of the least populated countries in the world, do you think those are typical?

I'm taking per capita rates from many nations. If you want to compare rough population equivalents, the Eurozone has more people than the US, and a greater percentage of people who are immigrants.

OK, for what it's worth other cities have a murder every other day, or twice a week, yet would have much higher rates of violence based on their size. It doesn't change the fact that the police will be out in those areas as it's their job to prevent crime and most likely searching people trying to get guns off the street and keep a presence out there to deter crime, do to this likely more Black teens will get arrested for drugs. Many white kids are likely smoking weed in nice suburban communities that have no crime problems and the police don't have nearly as much to worry about. That explains that difference for you.

So you're saying that black teens will be disproportionately affected by drug arrests. Congrats, you're learning how the system is biased! But wait - it gets better. It leads to a disproportionate sentencing for African Americans. After all, the more drug arrests, the greater the chance that you're going to serve time. Of course, being able to afford a good defense will help avoid a conviction, and potentially lesson the penalty if convicted - but wait, guess what group tends to have lower average income and wealth? (This probably helps explain why African-Americans, on average, receive more severe sentences.)

See how this quickly becomes a mess where several small factors combine to have a greater result than any one factor alone?
 
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If you weren't aware, black households, on average, have a lower income and a lower net worth compared to households of other races. Blacks are disproportionately represented among the poor.


So you're saying that black teens will be disproportionately affected by drug arrests.

See how this quickly becomes a mess where several small factors combine to have a greater result than any one factor alone?

You seem the love the word "disproportionately". What do you propose that everyone has the exact same income, and that every race is arrested in equal proportion for drug offences? That is the nature of life, not everything is proportionate. Disproportionate numbers alone does not imply an unjust system.

I said their is no evidence that they commit less suspension worthy offenses. Here's the source for that statement.

What page are you referencing? I'm not reading through a 20 page report to track down one statistic, I am genuinely curious. Does it say that white students commit more suspension worthy offences or is there simply no evidence period?

People tend to have sex. Most pregnancies are unplanned. Black non-hispanics, on average, have 0.2 to 0.3 children more than white women (source).

Of course, fertility rates vary by income (source). This may be due to education affecting both results, or it may be due to other factors such as the poor deciding to focus more on children than work. I wouldn't be surprised that if the fertility rates are corrected for race, we'd fine little or no difference.

Here's a handy chart on teenage pregnancy rates. We can go back and forth on this chicken vs the egg argument on whether poverty results from teenage pregnancy or vice versa but when the average child costs $250,000 from it's birth to the age of 18 it seems like a very expensive responsibility to take on at a young age with no career or education. If it needs to be made any more clear, conceiving a child is a personal choice and a choice which puts significant financial strain on people when they are young.

pregnancyteens.jpg
 
You seem the love the word "disproportionately". What do you propose that everyone has the exact same income, and that every race is arrested in equal proportion for drug offences? That is the nature of life, not everything is proportionate. Disproportionate numbers alone does not imply an unjust system.

Disproportionate ratios, in absence of any other mitigating factor, indicates bias at play. As someone who is planning to live another 50 years, I'd rather my nation not underperform due to people being discriminated against.

What page are you referencing? I'm not reading through a 20 page report to track down one statistic, I am genuinely curious. Does it say that white students commit more suspension worthy offences or is there simply no evidence period?

It states there's no evidence for blacks committing offenses at a higher rate than whites. Now, you may want to prove a negative, but a certain teapot would like to have a word with you.

Here's a handy chart on teenage pregnancy rates. We can go back and forth on this chicken vs the egg argument on whether poverty results from teenage pregnancy or vice versa but when the average child costs $250,000 from it's birth to the age of 18 it seems like a very expensive responsibility to take on at a young age with no career or education. If it needs to be made any more clear, conceiving a child is a personal choice and a choice which puts significant financial strain on people when they are young.

Yet overall birth rates aren't too dissimilar. It may indicate that non-whites have children when they are younger, while whites put it off until later. That would fit the data.
 
It states there's no evidence for blacks committing offenses at a higher rate than whites. Now, you may want to prove a negative, but a certain teapot would like to have a word with you.

What are the numbers of suspension worthy offences for each race? What page is that on? You seem quick to draw conclusions of racism when there's no evidence at all.



Yet overall birth rates aren't too dissimilar. It may indicate that non-whites have children when they are younger, while whites put it off until later. That would fit the data.

Perhaps this could cause a wealth gap. Having children as a teen can lead to serious financial strain. No time for education, etc
 
What are the numbers of suspension worthy offences for each race? What page is that on? You seem quick to draw conclusions of racism when there's no evidence at all.

Well, even the Implicit Assumption Test seems to indicate that racism is pervasive in out culture. So does CE&P. :p

Perhaps this could cause a wealth gap. Having children as a teen can lead to serious financial strain. No time for education, etc

I interpret it more as a logical human response to shitty prospects. Teen pregnancy tends to go up with future uncertainty (such as the American Revolutionary War). Not all races have the same certainty in the future, for obvious reasons. I'd look there to explain differences in teen pregnancy rates.
 
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