EADD Theology Megathread - Book II - Exodus

[Vurtual]

OK, but just on that lot, are you saying that you see no difference between heterosexual couples who sin by having sex and homosexual lovers? If that was the position of the church, i'd agree that it isn't homophobic - but the doctrine of marriage suggests otherwise - if there's no non-sinful way for homosexuals to consummate their love, then it's discrimination and therefore homophobia - it doesn't matter how much you tell them you love them while you're telling them they're inherently sinful and there's no way around it like with 'normal' heterosexuals (that's just passive-agressive homophobia - or maybe your homophobia is still in the closet )

 

[Raasyvibe]

^ Yes, as I said earlier in tha thread:

" Heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, pomosexual, autosexual. Christianity attacks animalistic physical sexual desire as a WHOLE and does not discriminate against either inclination. "

Many times in the bible, does Jesus talk against HETEROSEXUAL desires "if Thou even looks at a woman lustfully, he has commited adultery in his heart"


Eventual true love, in God intended way DOES take place between man and a woman. This is not homophobic, it just suggests there is an intended way and it is not through 2 people of the same sex. This analogy makes good practical sense also, as the child has a female and male ro-model in mummy and daddy.




The only flaw in this plan, from my own personal experience is sometimes God is very slow to fate your true love. Waiting all your life for the right person is something a lot of people will find hard to do, or find quite inconvenient, in this day and age.


(Please tell me if anyone finds this awkward or offensive, my personal opinions are put aside I am only purporting Christian beliefs as accurately as I understand, as requested by other users)

 

[Sadie]

Honestly stop ramming your beliefs down throats.Ughhhh...

 

[Ceres]

raas is like a christian version of ISIS

 

[Raasyvibe]

It's a theology thread and I'm only responding to questions asked.

 

[ScotchMist]

It's pretty laughable Raas that you're trying to tell us that the Church or a large percentage of practicing Christians is not homophobic..

Here we have a Pastor in America calling for all homosexual people to be executed to eradicate the Aids virus. He quotes Levictus 18:22 which no matter how you dress it up is homophobic...

 

[Raasyvibe]

It's pretty laughable Raas that you're trying to tell us that the Church or a large percentage of practicing Christians is not homophobic..

Here we have a Pastor in America calling for all homosexual people to be executed to eradicate the Aids virus. He quotes Levictus 18:22 which no matter how you dress it up is homophobic...

The church and Bible's message (When looked at properly) is clearly not homophobic. Though homosexuality is identified as a sin, Jesus talked to love sinners. Jesus also condemns and teaches against the former barbaric misinterpretation of Gods message in the OT (IE, verses exclaiming that homosexuals should be put to death)


There are small Christian groups that twist the message around to suit their own agendas of hate and homophobia, to my knowledge these people are only a very small percentage and shunned by the rest of the church. For instance, westboro Baptist

NSFW:

 

[Sadie]

I knew I recognised a vibe. Quite westbro..... Spot on.

 

[Vurtual]

...Eventual true love, in God intended way DOES take place between man and a woman. This is not homophobic, it just suggests there is an intended way and it is not through 2 people of the same sex. This analogy makes good practical sense also, as the child has a female and male ro-model in mummy and daddy.

But it is though - just passive agressive homophobia as i said. You're saying homosexuals are equal to heterosexuals, but only heterosexuals have got a non-sinful option to have sex (via marriage, which wasn't even christian in origin) - that's discrimination and therefore homophobia (maybe the homophobia is unconscious, but it's still there)

You're judging the actions of homosexuals (judge not lest ye be judged); you're also implying that if only they'd listen to jesus' word, they'd settle down in a normal relationship with the opposite sex like "God intended", which isn't far away from the idea that homosexulaity can be 'cured'. (my dad used to know a gay man in the 50s - he was given aversion therapy to cure his "perversion", following then-current psychology (not to mention christianity) - he was shown pictures of naked men and given electric shocks - it was a success in that it got rid of the homosexuality: he went and laid his head on a train track - who's the sinner here?)

Do you also follow the freudian idea that only penetrative heterosexual sex is proper non-sinful sex - and that women who get orgasms from their clitoris only (which can't lead to procreation) are immature/sinful. Then why did god put the clit there in the first place? or make it pleasurable for homosexuals to have sex for that matter? Why did he even connect our dopamine circuits to anything except praying and babies? Is your god fucking with us?

 

[ColtDan]

Such a deluded fairytale load of bullshit

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

The church and Bible's message (When looked at properly) is clearly not homophobic. Though homosexuality is identified as a sin

If you can't recognise the inherent idiocy in this statement there is little hope for you.

 

[Ceres]

The bible is not an instruction manual on how to be a dick, raas.

(actually come to think of it...)

 

[Raasyvibe]

But it is though - just passive agressive homophobia as i said. You're saying homosexuals are equal to heterosexuals, but only heterosexuals have got a non-sinful option to have sex (via marriage, which wasn't even christian in origin) - that's discrimination and therefore homophobia (maybe the homophobia is unconscious, but it's still there)

No. Bible says all humans are created equally (Galatians 3:28 ) So love in a holy, non sinful way is in no way exclusive to some but no for others. Those with homosexual tendencies could also find true love and sex as God intended. Theology suggests we're all the same, and love is in an intended way. So a person with homosexual desires, would be expected to overcome these "unintended" desires, just as a heterosexual person would be expected to overcome their own unintended desires.

Eventual true love/ twin flames or whatever you want to call it, DOES take place between a man and a woman. This is not homophobic, it's just the way we've been created. This has many practical advantages. For instance, it provides the child with female and male role-models. The traits of 2 different genders work well to create a family.

You're judging the actions of homosexuals (judge not lest ye be judged);

No I am not. I am quoting from scripture. GOD is judging them... y'know, the guy who made judgement day? Feel he is in a good position to say it is wrong.

The church and the Bible's message (When looked at properly) is clearly not homophobic. Though homosexuality is identified as a sin

If you can't recognise the inherent idiocy in this statement there is little hope for you.

No because the term "homophobic" connotes hate and opposition to homosexuals as individuals. Whereas the bible says as people they are made in the image of God and we are to love sinners. It says that the intercourse between the same sex is wrong.

 

[pinkpapaver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM9-8qj_Js8

this is good. isis and Osiris and Christianity. it's all written in the stars.

 

[ScotchMist]

You've lost me Raas.. Your posts contain as many contradictions as the bible itself.

How can "Intercourse between the same sex is wrong" be construed as anything but hateful and opposition to it

 

[Ceres]

I reckon raas' drug induced epiphany when he found god was actually a drug induced psychotic episode.

 

[Vurtual]

No. Bible says all humans are created equally (Galatians 3:28 ) So love in a holy, non sinful way is in no way exclusive to some but no for others. Those with homosexual tendencies could also find true love and sex as God intended. Theology suggests we're all the same, and love is in an intended way. So a person with homosexual desires, would be expected to overcome these "unintended" desires, just as a heterosexual person would be expected to overcome their own unintended desires.

Eventual true love/ twin flames or whatever you want to call it, DOES take place between a man and a woman. This is not homophobic, it's just the way we've been created. This has many practical advantages. For instance, it provides the child with female and male role-models. The traits of 2 different genders work well to create a family.

You've just agreed with me: you're basically saying homosexuality is something that can/should be cured - that's homophobia 101 (and btw homophobia means irrational fear, not hatred of gays (actually homophobia literally means fear of something that's the same as you)). Saying homosexuals are equal to heterosexuals because they can both have heterosexual sex if they want is just complete bollocks any way you look at it - surely you can see it's not an argument.

...No I am not. I am quoting from scripture. GOD is judging them... y'know, the guy who made judgement day? Feel he is in a good position to say it is wrong...Whereas the bible says as people they are made in the image of God and we are to love sinners. It says that the intercourse between the same sex is wrong.

Yep, that's homophobia, it just happens to have been projected outside the human minds it originated in out onto god to validate it more than the common bigotry it started as.

I've tried but you just don't seem to be getting the christian message , just some over-literal logic-twisting word game using an arbitrary bunch of translated documents as if they were some magic almanac that answers all queries. The glowing heart of your religion which i keep on higlighting does answer all questions, but it has to go via your own reason and your heart (or you have to work it out yourself, not get the answer from some 2000 year old authority from a desert) - would god/jesus have created our minds, reasoning and empathy if he didn't expect us to apply them? Would he just want us to be obedient automatons and not use our god-given gifts? Maybe one day you'll learn how to do grown up christianity grasshopper

 

[Raasyvibe]

You've just agreed with me: you're basically saying homosexuality is something that can/should be cured - that's homophobia 101 (and btw homophobia means fear, not hatred of gays (actually homophobia literally means fear of something that's the same as you)). Saying homosexuals are equal to heterosexuals because they can both have heterosexual sex if they want is just complete bollocks any way you look at it - surely you can see it's not an argument.

Christianity opposes love in the form of an "impure" way, drawing a distinction between desires of the flesh, and that of the spirit. (Romans 8:6) using your body and desires in a way that glorifies God (1corinthians 10-31).

This opposition to what is considered false or perverse passions, is just as applicable to heterosexualism:

Matthew 5:28" I say to you that he who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart"[


So if it's homophobic, it's also heterophobic. Basically it would hate all people except asexuals.


Is it homophobic to say homosexual activity is wrong? It depends on how you define Homophobia. Most definitions (And I've just googled about 5) tend to suggest it is an aversion, or negativity towards people who identify themselves with being homosexuals.

google: "dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people"
Dictionary.com" unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality. "
Oxford dictionary "Dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people."
m-w :"irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals "


But Christ does not teach of hate and dislike of sexual sinners, it teaches of love and respect to those who sin sexually. The precise opposite to these definitions.

John chapter 8: When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


"Neither do I condemn thee", being the key words of Jesus here. Christians should follow such attitude, when dealing with the subject of sexual sin.


Homophobia, is a dislike or prejudice against those who identify themselves with being gay. Christianity teaches love and forgiveness to those who sin sexually. This is why I do not think it should be defined "homophobic".



(if ya gonna disagree with all of this regardless, at least do it dignifiedly. I've spent ages writing that concisely and digging out all the appropriate verses off google.

You've lost me Raas.. Your posts contain as many contradictions as the bible itself.

How can Intercourse between the same sex is wrong be construed as anything but hateful and opposition to it

So it depends on precise definition. Homophobia seems to refer to a dislike or aversion to homosexuals, where Christiannity teaches the precise opposite. It does however dislike homosexual activity, I don't think the term "homophobia" quite fits this description. Correct me if you feel it does.

The term "phobia" also connotes fear and aversion, which arent really words associated with a Christian approach - following the teachings of Jesus and NT .

I've tried but you just don't seem to be getting the christian message , just some over-literal logic-twisting word game using an arbitrary bunch of translated documents as if they were some magic almanac that answers all queries.

I'm expounding Christian held beliefs with appropriate verses, so that you know i'm structured and it can be validated.

The glowing heart of your religion which i keep on higlighting does answer all questions, but it has to go via your own reason and your heart (or you have to work it out yourself, not get the answer from some 2000 year old authority from a desert). Maybe one day you'll learn how to do grown up christianity grasshopper

It takes into account our fallibility (We can't even decide amongst us whether homosexual intercourse is right or wrong) and gives scripture to lend support to our "own reason and heart". That's why I'm a Christian, the bible coincides with discerned reason and is much more than a "bunch of fairytales" as ColtDan described it.


But then ColtDan is a true great theological expert who knows all, so probably best disregarding all this converse.

 

[Vurtual]

(i'll try again) Just because a christian would like to think they aren't homophobic, it has no effect on whether they're actually homophobic (we all like to believe nice things about ourselves) - homophobic is as homophobic does (or closet homophobia as i said) - the belief that homosexuality is wrong is homophobic, that seems pretty obvious ('wrong' has pretty negative connotations). Beleiving that someone is 'wrong' becasue of something about themselves that they can't change is pretty much the same as racism - it's definitely a sin in my eyes.

Christianity isn't against heterosexual sex and lust ('be fruitful and multiply') or do you think babies only happen when there's love (whatever that is). It's not even against heterosexual sex for pleasure within marriage since the reformation ('we just don't feel like it' - remember the Monty Python sketch from 'Meaning of Life' (after 'every sperm is sacred')) - and some of the psalms are pretty fruity and definitely about fucking from memory. But it is (if taken literally and without interpretation as you are) against homosexuals having any type of sex, except the 'right' sex (ie not with the person they love (or lust)).

It doesn't matter if christians say they love the perverts while calling them perverts - that's just passive-aggressive (unconscious maybe (if i'm being generous)). It's condemning people as sinners for who they are, and for which they can't do anything about (unless you actually believe in those dodgy christian gay-curing practices (i told what that leads to)) - you can't say it's the same as heterosexuals as they can get married and then fuck. Therefore: discrimination, and homophobia. This point is self evident - please answer it with logic and not some cherry-picked verse from the bible (which is full of contradictions) (if you say it's just what the bible or god said, that doesn't answer the point - i then just say your bible or god is homophobic).
[EDIT:that sounded a bit aggressive - answer it however you want (or not) you're going to think what you think - i'm just offereing a different possible christian perspective (as a non-christian)]

 

[Raasyvibe]

- homophobic is as homophobic does (or closet homophobia as i said) - the belief that homosexuality is wrong is homophobic, that seems pretty obvious ('wrong' has pretty negative connotations). Beleiving that someone is 'wrong' becasue of something about themselves that they can't change is pretty much the same as racism - it's definitely a sin in my eyes.

The key important differentiation, is that it seperates sexuality from the person. It suggests the person is spiritual, and the desires of the flesh are "death". As is it opposes the nature of the fleshly desire, it appreciates and loves the person who can supersede the desire. It suggests a person is too great, to be limited or defined by their sexual preference.

Therefore it does not oppose, nor discriminate, nor hold prejudice to the person who is trying to link themselves with the primitive desire, and why it is not homophobic. The Westboro church IS homophobic, some churches ARE homophobic. They preach hate to homosexuals - they oppose them; they dislike them; they discriminate against them. THAT is homophobic. The large majority of the church is NOT homophobic, because it differentiates between the desires and the individuals and teaches love to the individual regardless.

Is this making sense now??

Christianity isn't against heterosexual sex and lust ('be fruitful and multiply') or do you think babies only happen when there's love (whatever that is). It's not even against heterosexual sex for pleasure within marriage since the reformation ('we just don't feel like it' - remember the Monty Python sketch from 'Meaning of Life' (after 'every sperm is sacred')) - and some of the psalms are pretty fruity and definitely about fucking from memory. But it is (if taken literally and without interpretation as you are) against homosexuals having any type of sex, except the 'right' sex (ie not with the person they love (or lust)).

Christianity is against all sex before marriage. It is against physical sexual desire from an animalistic perspective as a whole. It see's marital sex between soul mates as God intended, as something completely exclusive from the rest of it: The difference being it's pure, spiritual nature.

The term "heterosexual" seems too simplistic to describe it's opposition and does not cater for the complex spiritual ideology. It see's it fine to multiply with one woman, but not with another. Rather than being against homosexuality or heterosexualty, it is better to say it rejects all that is not of pure spirituality. Heterosexual sex that it condones, is meant to be of a completely different nature than the heterosexuality that is disallowed.

It does suggest that the form of true spirituality, is to be taken place through a man and a woman.

It doesn't matter if christians say they love the perverts while calling them perverts - that's just passive-aggressive (unconscious maybe (if i'm being generous)). It's condemning people as sinners for who they are, and for which they can't do anything about (unless you actually believe in those dodgy christian gay-curing practices (i told what that leads to)) - you can't say it's the same as heterosexuals as they can get married and then fuck.

Your example of conditioning a person not to be gay, is not at all related to spiritual healing of sexual desire. Many, many, many people have found sexual chastity through spirituality and been content, you can google the many cases now. It does not condemn people for who they are, or what they can't do anything about. It glorifies them through who they are (made in the image of God) and in the same spirit - gives them a chance to progress from it (progress from the desires and enter chastity, as countless converts have claimed)

[EDIT:that sounded a bit aggressive - answer it however you want (or not) you're going to think what you think - i'm just offereing a different possible christian perspective (as a non-christian)]

I appreciate your perspective and though I disagree, they are very considered posts. I'm trying to push my personal influence aside and give logical answers. To summarise, Christianity does oppose homosexual activity. Calling it homophobia depends purely on how you define it, because it can be a broad term. For me the term connotes aggression - hatred, dislike, fear and malice towards people who consider themselves homosexual. As explained above, Christian values are the opposite to this, which is why I don't think it's a suitable term.