******WARNING****** - Potentially TOXIC aMT in the UK *********

[Inflorescence]

Jesus is talking sense however Pagey stated that their aMT was seized by the police so only hope of finding any real problems with an adulterant in the mix is their tox screens.

However if other people have bought recently and especially if from a UK vendor that is currently selling their aMT at half price ahumm it would be well worth a lab test.

Take care you all you crazy kids..we get one chance at this life so don't be complacent and play as safe as possible with whatever we are boshing.

 

[Transform]

A technique called allometric scaling (info (PDF), info2) is usually used to compare LD50 data. A 22mg/kg oral figure for rats translates to 376mg for a 70kg human. This is the amount that would kill half of the population it was given to. It is not a long stretch to think that one might run into trouble at doses of 200mg.

Given that aMT is an MAOI and serotonin releaser it's not unreasonable to expect a significant exponential rise in risk with slight increases in dose at the higher end of the range. You mention that doses close to this have been taken before - how close?

I don't mean to jump down your throat and I don't not believe you but I don't think this is a clear-cut case.


It is a well known phenomenon in the past that some reports of aMT use record 50mg as very strong doses, and others go rather over 100mg. It is not clear whether this is a result of genetic variation between users or chemical variation in batches and data is relatively sparse because of the long duration of aMT making it unpopular.

If you tell me which vendor (PM) this came from then I will get a sample tested. I do not think that naming the vendor is necessary because many of the RCs sold across the world come from a small selection of labs.

 

[ponch]

It's not too far fetched to suspect that perhaps they were shifting cut aMT in the past and are now selling it unbashed to try get rid of it before they are unable to sell it anymore.

 

[Solipsis]

Have all three of you taken doses of AMT like that in the past? And was that AMT from different vendors / batches over a period of time so that we can rule out that you had weak aMT in the past?

Because if all three of you have an unexpected serious reaction like this it seems statistically unlikely to be a triple 'fluke'. Unless it turns out that you didn't really have experience with high doses of actual pure aMT that is.

FYI, this warning was also stickied in PD: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/735452-Warning-Potentially-toxic-aMT-from-UK-vendor

We are of course very concerned about this happening, and to see you guys hurt. Hopefully you will not have persistent damage, and hopefully there will not be other incidents. It would be good to see this cleared up and any extra background information you guys can give us until the tox screen comes back might be helpful, so thatd be great.

 

[bummer]

It's not too far fetched to suspect that perhaps they were shifting cut aMT in the past and are now selling it unbashed to try get rid of it before they are unable to sell it anymore.

I see no reason from a business perspective for one of the big 4/5 to sell cut AMT.
Its so easy to get stuff tested and reputation is everything in the RC business.

 

[ponch]

I do recall a post from a while ago (probably 12+ months) saying that aMT in the UK was low quality/purity.

What Jesus says makes a lot of sense and would probably tie in with a higher purity than usual being sold.

 

[bummer]

Well if they got it where i think they got it, and theres a few clues in the thread then yes its a good batch not a bad batch.


Thats not quite the same as cutting gear with other stuff though... I thought thats what you were suggesting.

 

[ponch]

Nah I just meant bulking it out with inert cuts, not cutting with other active substances.

 

[Si Dread]

Just remember the LD50 is for rats/mice, who have a much better metabolism than ours and so can stand a much higher dose per body weight than we can, and that the LD50 is when 50% of the rats/mice die, the lowest dose that has a good chance (say 10%) of killing someone is usually much lower, often as much as 10x lower.

To put it into perspective:
LD50 for MDMA in rodents: 100-300mg/kg which would be 6.5-19.5 grams in a 65kg adult if the dose translated to humans, it doesn't though, and human LD50 for MDMA is thought to be closer to 30mg/kg, so 1.95g in a 65kg adult - plus remember that's the dose when 50% of people will die, would you really be happy with a 20% risk of dying, or even a 5% for that matter? Because if not then the safe dose decreases dramatically, and that 1.95g for MDMA will become more like 400mg for an individual with no tolerance.


Now look at AMT:

LD50 for AMT in rodents: 20-30mg/kg.. That'd translate to closer to 3-4mg/kg in humans (so 195-260mg), and that's when 50% of individuals would be expected to die, nevermind just 10% or 5%.. 200mg is a dose that *should* put you in hospital and that's not something I have any doubt over. I think even 100mg of pure AMT is overkill and getting into riskier territory, and I've seen people manifesting with symptoms akin to serotonin syndrome from around 110mg before - along with the incident with 180mg that nearly killed one of my old school friends.

I can say without a doubt that getting away alive after taking 200mg of AMT freebase is something you should feel very lucky about.

To put it in perspective, at 40-50mg AMT is just as strong a serotonin releaser/reuptake inhibitor as something like MDMA, and at 150mg it's as strong an MAOI as Harmaline. Harmaline at a single dose has killed people just in combination with stuff like cheese and other tyramine containing foods, combined with a serotonin releaser or reuptake inhibitor of any kind will definitely hospitalise or kill someone. Taking 200mg AMT would be like taking just 1 and 1/3 doses of Harmaline along with 3-4 doses of MDMA, that's definitely something you'd need quite the miracle to survive.

Cut from one of those first class posts that make BL worth logging on to. Kudos.

Glad you guys are okay Pagey, only just saw this. Big dose though! Although I often am, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be naming a vendor in this case.

 

[Sprout]

I'm really sorry for your experience, but it has to be said: 200mg of aMT is obscene, at those doses, as JG explained more eloquently than I can, aMT is a full scale MAO inhibitor that also releases more SE than MDMA. That is a very, very dangerous combination.

I doubt it is a contaminant issue as A) the odds of you being hospitalised after a cocktail of potent MAOi and massive SE flood approach certainty, and B) I personally have some aMT from the same supplier, bought recently in the same sale - it is almost definitely cut (30mg was barely noticeable until the peak), but with a water insoluble, inert substance.

Please, anyone contemplating heroic doses of aMT: don't do it. It is not safe, and it will either kill or hospitalise you.

 

[blue_cheese]

I know its been said again and again but just thought I'd reaffirm what others are saying.

I suspect this is simply a case of amt overdose. Not suggesting that the vendor isn't at fault here, (either due to adulterated product or product of a higher quality than that which was previously available) but the symptoms sound very similar to a recent experience I had with PMA, and even more similar to ones experienced by a friend who took a large amount (150mg+) of amt a few years and barely made it out of hospital alive. It's safe to assume if he took this dose in a warm club environment, and not at home, he would not be here today.

The OP probably has more exp with this chemical than myself, so I'll try not to sound patronising, but I'm sure they'll understand when I say just how unpredictable amt is. I've had incredibly uncomfortable trips with less than 30mg, and beautiful, euphoric and comfortable experiences with doses above 50mg.

Glad you're OK, and anyone reading please please please do not take unsafe doses of amt. It was popular around here as a party drug a while back, and I've lost count of how many people were broken by high, and even medium doses of it.

 

[Shambles]

Really sorry to hear what you guys have been through and very glad you're okay

..but I think Jesus is talking real sense here (and should be commended for his HR stance and knowledge.)

Truthqouted twice over.

That aside, unfortunately in the absence of a sample of that particular batch being analysed speculations on possibilities of contaminants or other shady vendor biznizzes are just that: speculations. Naming of vendors has only happened on BL where there is clear evidence of a substance being missold/mislabelled where there is no question whatsoever (usually cos the vendor is dead and half their customers in hospital). In instances of large vendors with (as far as we know) "only" three instances of there being a major problem there is just way too much scope for there being other potential contributing factors to jump to assuming swathes of hospitalisations given how (relatively) commonly used a substance like aMT is (and there are a fairly limited number of UK vendors who stock it - even fewer with 50% off sales on at the moment - so I'm sure we can work that bit out for ourselves without actual naming of anybody.

The main thing is that you're all okay

Beyond that it's something to keep an eye on for sure but Jesus speaks sense (truly never thought I'd ever say that) on this matter. 200mg is in the danger zone for anybody under any circumstances. Doesn't matter how often you got away with it before. I got away with ridiculous shit until that one time Serotonin Syndrome smacked the living shit outta me and damn near killed me on just about as low-risk and obscure combo as it gets. The simple (and unpleasant) fact is that it really can be you whoever you are and no matter how many considerably more extreme things you've done and gotten away with previously.

Again, the main thing is that you're all okay

 

[Sandbwoy]

Shocking to hear that a UK vendor is selling aMT that is potentially laced with other unknown substances, hope you all recovered well. I would definitely recommend purchasing some reagent testing kits if you have any aMT from that batch remaining, to be able to rule out other substances and maybe even find what it is that's mixed in with this batch of aMT.

Even if all that batch is gone, it's worth getting some reagent testing kits anyway to test future chems you purchase, so that you don't have another bad experience like this one.

 

[masaz]

Doesn't matter how often you got away with it before. I got away with ridiculous shit until that one time Serotonin Syndrome smacked the living shit outta me and damn near killed me

For reals. Not quite the same thing, but I got fairly brave with Tramadol, like, 'hey I got this stuff prescribed, go for it' and kept boshing it at dangerous levels with no consequences. And then, one day, seizure. Was lucky my mate was there. Doctor was shocked when I told him I didn't want it any more and to just scribe me some co-codamol.

That said, I really hope you're all doing ok, can't be a fucking nice thing to go through at all, Jesus

 

[Ismene]

Bit of a narrow squeak there pagey. Much love x

 

[Chatative]

Being as the warning has gone out & no-one else has had any similar issues, the thread has been de-stickified.

If you have any further updates, let us know. Stay safe.

 

[masaz]

Hi guys, mrcientist, Pagey's fiancé, I was also in hospital last weekend with the symptoms mentioned in the OP. The vendor has just sent me an email saying it has 50% off aMT now. DO NOT under any circumstances buy from this vendor. It seems too suspicious given the circumstances.

Please be safe.

Is it not worth alluding to/naming the vendor responsible? I am sure pretty much 95% of us know who it is, and I know our policy on naming vendors and that many of us can infer who is who by offers etc. but I really think it'd be helpful to newbies with a big ol' fucking warning going 'DON'T DO IT'. If it's the same vendor I'm thinking of, they sent my best friend Diphenidine instead of 5-MeO-DALT and that was a lovely early morning trip to hospital.

Once again I know it's against BLUA to name vendors but in cases like this it seems more in the spirit of harm reduction, assuming sufficient warnings are given.

 

[Chatative]

We had this discussion in the staff forums & although could see reason to do so, decided it wasn't appropriate to in this instance.

 

[Transform]

Just to say that I have secured a sample of this from the vendor in question and will be sending it for testing in due course. No point speculating when we have these services available to us! Wedinos sample W002728

The smell is consistent with other batches I have seen and there is no colour change from the marquis reagent, also as expected.

The sample was £5, if anyone would like to contribute a few pennies then I would be grateful, hopefully we can encourage this more in the future. 1GFjH89u4tAME2PWJXnQYoQrXEB2kLbmB8

I wonder if pagey's had this note on it

 

[Chatative]

Just to say that I have secured a sample of this from the vendor in question and will be sending it for testing in due course. No point speculating when we have these services available to us!

The smell is consistent with other batches I have seen and there is no colour change from the marquis reagent, also as expected.

The sample was £5, if anyone would like to contribute a few pennies then I would be grateful, hopefully we can encourage this more in the future. 1GFjH89u4tAME2PWJXnQYoQrXEB2kLbmB8

Thanks, will be very interested to hear the results.