The isolation of knowing

[Foreigner]

Been going through a lot in my personal life lately, the details of which are not really relevant to the question I'm about to ask, but it's enough to know that such issues have triggered me into asking.

It occurs to me that the more I know, or more precisely, the more wisdom I seem to accumulate with time, the more isolated I am becoming from others. The only way the wisdom seems to help me connect to others is through helping those who are on a path of needing to know, or with others who are in a similar place I am (who are not common). For everyone else, there is seemingly a blissful ignorance within not knowing. In fact, many people I've tried to become friends with or establish romantic connections to are sometimes turned away by being reminded of what they have been ignoring. They are content to chase the material paradigm, be upwardly mobile in a socially acceptable way, and not really question the deeper aspects of life or yet still the even deeper underpinnings of reality. In my daily world I come face to face with the fact that there's no such thing as spiritual capital, not in a culture that doesn't share those values.

And I don't fault them for that, not really... but as time goes on and I find myself on the outside looking in, I wonder a) how much I've actually learned that has bettered my life in terms of basic human needs, and b) if having this philosophical / spiritual wisdom is really so much "better" since at the end of the day we're all just humans making our way from birth to death. What's the point of having all this depth if it hinders human connection? In a way, my question is the classic conformist/rebel axis. We all want to fit in, to love and be loved, and to belong, but at what cost? It seems like the cost becomes exponentially more for people like me, and I have to endure exposure to toxic values in order to get certain other needs met.

I know part of the problem is the specific culture I'm living in right now, which is sort of like west hollywood in its vapidness of values... but I feel that it's not enough to blame the outside world for this. There must be something incongruent with my perceptual reality and the way most humans interact. The most spiritual of my friends say no, it's just that they don't understand, and would rather just keep chasing illusions and desires. But part of me wonders if that's just a cop out? I mean... the point of all this spiritual work has to ultimately be about finding the true source of happiness and contentment, otherwise what's the point?

So I find myself coming full circle now... my learning has evidently been incomplete because I don't feel content at all. I mean let's be honest, basic human needs are not all that complicated. So why muddy the process with all kinds of frameworks that make it harder to maintain those things? (I know the answer to my own question so it's rather rhetorical.) Whether it's sheer intelligence or other kinds of "higher" knowing (put in quotes because I don't think anything is "better"), how does one cope with being a seeker in a world where, predominantly, people could care less?

Put another way, almost every person I've met with high intelligence or some degree of real spiritual attainment also has a bit of silent suffering due to the isolation of being different or having that special awareness. How do I transform that suffering and connect with the masses again? I don't want to be an outsider, yet I don't feel like I can lower myself by pretending I enjoy the world of illusion the way others do. In other words, I can't fake it to fit in anymore.

 

[Mitchi]

I just pretend I'm in the circus

Sorry. the world is really fucked. Modernity fucked us over

 

[rickolasnice]

I think we may just be two sides of the same coin foreigner..

Although we may have different ideas on the definition of what "knowing" is..

 

[Shrooms00087]

It is typical for a person to isolate themselves into some passion that isn't shared by their environment (friends, etc).

 

[Kittycat5]

You mentioned seeking for the meaning of happiness and contentment. You chose to investigate this on a spiritual path but keep in mind this is the goal for most individuals and a small group of people around them. Why does it matter how one tries to achieve this?

 

[swilow]

I don't think anything is "better"

I love what you write and find a lot to think about in it, but I don't think you truly believe that statement. Much of your OP mildy denigrates the general population and our goals and techniques for fulfilling these goals, which seems to be counter-productive and 'not-better' at all.

For me, the fact that nothing is true, nothing matters and I will die one day means that I can eternally compromise my values and ethics and still be happy, because these thoughts and views absolutely do not exist and won't 'not-exist' any more when I am dead. As mentioned above, if all people seek to be happy, do what you need to be happy yourself whilst concurrently ensuring that you don't reduce the ability of others to be happy. There is a joy in rolling in mud when you are 100% aware that you are rolling in mud.

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

In my daily world I come face to face with the fact that there's no such thing as spiritual capital, not in a culture that doesn't share those values.
.

There's not even such a thing as real capital. It's all arbitrary anyway.

People are creatures of psychology.

 

[Sayeh]

Sound like you are not happy with your current enviroment. Sometimes you have to travel, move, make a drastic change in your lifestyle for karma to connect you with the right kind of people. I would suggest making a pilgramage to Nepal or India or both. Live in a buddhist monastery. Travel India and speak with the sadhus. Most of them are really interresting and they personafy great wisdom in the way they live. I was too becoming sick of living in a culture where the religion seems to be smartphones and "social' networking. Thought of the world to be spiritually dead untill i experienced the music and life og India. May i recommend Vrindavan. A perfect mix of ancient culture and religion. Hare krishna being chanted everywhere. Sadhus roaming the streets smoking the best hashish looking at th beautifull flowers. Ketamine is obtainable at the pharmacies OTC though you have to ask around abit. I met an ukrainian agorie sadhu in Nepal he was a former ketamine therapist with 15 years of experience. He really showed me how to live the most crazy, independent lifestyle imaginable. No money through India, making the most of every second, always being in the now 100% no need for money, smartphones. Fancy clothes. Who needs that when you csn venture barefooted though indian forrests at night with only a sheet around you, letting the waves carry you around in the ocean under the big indian moon. Always playing music smoking chillum with other sadhus or becoming one with the univers bagavan through insane ketamine sessions in nature. Life is great when your time is right. Sorry for the long rant. Just thought i would share my experience of liberation from everyday life. Im back again in my home country. Maybe alittle wiser. I dont know. One thing is for certain, im positive of the existens of god/bagavan/nirvana having had a brief glimpse myself. Im now back to my fomer self tho. And the memories are quickly fading away. Hard coming to terms with everyday life again. Seems like having a job earning money 9-5 is just not my thing. I actually dont like my country at all. Seems so dull and mechanic. The feeling of oneness and unity, the certainty that everything was in place, that we were doing the right thing. It's gone now and only my depression is left. Even worse than before i left. Know i should be happy, feel very priviliged to have seen and experienced stuff that most people doesnt before they die. But im just left with a single thought in my mind and that is the wanting of more. I know the deep "insight" here is to realise enlghtement, fun and love isent to be found halfway across the globe, but instead in your own backyard. But boy does is seem hard to get out of this dull hole iv digged.

 

[angeleyes]

I feel so much of this thread applies with my life as well. I'm really hoping that I'll be able to connect with more people once next year comes and other factors come into play.

Like Sayeh wrote, I moved away and I thought it was a great move. I'm finding myself interacting with much more genuine and down to earth people that the big city lacked. Obviously my experience doesn't come anywhere close to his/hers (good lord that India mission that sounds intense, but sick) but it worked for me!


I hope to break this feeling soon.

 

[Furanku_]

So I find myself coming full circle now... my learning has evidently been incomplete because I don't feel content at all. I mean let's be honest, basic human needs are not all that complicated. So why muddy the process with all kinds of frameworks that make it harder to maintain those things? (I know the answer to my own question so it's rather rhetorical.) Whether it's sheer intelligence or other kinds of "higher" knowing (put in quotes because I don't think anything is "better"), how does one cope with being a seeker in a world where, predominantly, people could care less?

Your need to understand seems to be the problem, which is why your learning will always appear incomplete. I don't know if we're talking about the same spirituality here but if it has to do with realization or enlightenment as they say, then your feelings of further separation from others could be from that ego of yours. It's easy for an identity to fall back after taking a hit and saying to itself: "this is what I NOW KNOW to be the truth."

So here you are with your new attained information on yourself and the world around you, and oh yeah, look at all the other people around me who haven't reached my state of awareness or knowledge, I just can't understand or relate to them the same again. You call yourself a seeker, is that what you wish to be?

Put another way, almost every person I've met with high intelligence or some degree of real spiritual attainment also has a bit of silent suffering due to the isolation of being different or having that special awareness. How do I transform that suffering and connect with the masses again? I don't want to be an outsider, yet I don't feel like I can lower myself by pretending I enjoy the world of illusion the way others do. In other words, I can't fake it to fit in anymore.

Let me ask you, what do you know about what you are seeking? What's this special awareness consist of? I only ask you these things because sometimes the search for truth takes us even farther away from it. I've been down your path before and can relate to you in how you feel. The funny thing is, the problem is in the title. The isolation of knowing. You know too much, which is indeed driving you farther away from the truth of life. Slow down in your search, it's ultimately pointless to search for what's right in front of us but we do it anyways lol.

Peace love.

 

[Shrooms00087]

Your need to understand seems to be the problem, which is why your learning will always appear incomplete.

This will always be a problem specific to everyone.

So here you are with your new attained information on yourself and the world around you, and oh yeah, look at all the other people around me who haven't reached my state of awareness or knowledge, I just can't understand or relate to them the same again. You call yourself a seeker, is that what you wish to be?

If it is my understanding he did not mean to imply "look at all the other people around me who haven't reached my state of awareness or knowledge [and cannot relate]". However he is a seeker of knowledge this is a passion. Truly why someone gets isolated is merely by means of conversation which is why I believe he put emphasis on "people could care less". This is why when you get in to colleges you immediately get compartmentalized so you have like minds to inspire each other with their related passions sought

The real question is "are you happy"? Or if this is not a sufficient question "has this brought pleasure"?

The funny thing is, the problem is in the title. The isolation of knowing.

Also I submit to you (whether the OP intended it or not) that "the isolation of knowing" is a real phenomena that only exists in social structures where people with certain interests find it hard to get into a conversation with another which leads to isolation. For example:

You can assume that a Theological Philosopher is going to isolate himself from a String Theory Physicist and vice versa. I mean this is a broad generalization but if you give me the wiggle room I think you'd agree that going into any passion that other people do not share, it's going to be hard to have a conversation.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

It occurs to me that the more I know, or more precisely, the more wisdom I seem to accumulate with time, the more isolated I am becoming from others. The only way the wisdom seems to help me connect to others is through helping those who are on a path of needing to know, or with others who are in a similar place I am (who are not common).

This is called the 'Law of the Ladder'. You can only reach those on your rung of the spiritual ladder or one rung below, and you can only 'hear' those one rung above you. Those further above you won't be able to hear, and those far below will crucify you if you try to help them.. as happened with a certain famous religious figure. Ultimately you reach the top and you are alone for you become one with oneness.

For everyone else, there is seemingly a blissful ignorance within not knowing. In fact, many people I've tried to become friends with or establish romantic connections to are sometimes turned away by being reminded of what they have been ignoring. They are content to chase the material paradigm, be upwardly mobile in a socially acceptable way, and not really question the deeper aspects of life or yet still the even deeper underpinnings of reality. In my daily world I come face to face with the fact that there's no such thing as spiritual capital, not in a culture that doesn't share those values.

Nope. No spiritual capital. And that's the way it should be.. you can't put a price on the Truth. Unfortunately that doesn't do us much good when we still need to eat and live somewhere obviously. It takes time and trust to speak about deeper things with people because everyone has an automatic valve in their minds that prevents them from listening to things that challenge one or more of their egos. You're not worth listening to if you can't be a friend to someone, so don't preach.. just offer truth and insight when it is warranted, but don't go looking for it. At the age of 27 it has taken me several years to find the balance. As for spiritual capital.. I'm struggling to settle on a forward plan for myself in this rapidly shifting/decaying world.

And I don't fault them for that, not really... but as time goes on and I find myself on the outside looking in, I wonder a) how much I've actually learned that has bettered my life in terms of basic human needs, and b) if having this philosophical / spiritual wisdom is really so much "better" since at the end of the day we're all just humans making our way from birth to death. What's the point of having all this depth if it hinders human connection? In a way, my question is the classic conformist/rebel axis. We all want to fit in, to love and be loved, and to belong, but at what cost? It seems like the cost becomes exponentially more for people like me, and I have to endure exposure to toxic values in order to get certain other needs met.

Halfway to eternity is nowhere. Wisdom doesn't take you anywhere, but it is part of the process of understanding and having a realization. Even if you don't go all the way you'll have a much better understanding of yourself and others.. sometimes it makes me sad because people have become so easy to read with heightened intuition and the knowledge that they're just organic robots. But I understand your dilemma because it is something I have struggled with, still struggle with, and have for awhile. It seems everyone diminishes themselves through alcohol, drugs, or other practices that depletes their vitality and worth just so they can fit in with everyone else, and it's a lose-lose situation for our society. It can feel very lonely when everyone else is racing to destroy their worth and you're one of few who stand in opposition to it.. and those who stand with you range from the mystic to the insightful, vegan hippy-liberal douche to plain nutbar.

I know part of the problem is the specific culture I'm living in right now, which is sort of like west hollywood in its vapidness of values... but I feel that it's not enough to blame the outside world for this. There must be something incongruent with my perceptual reality and the way most humans interact. The most spiritual of my friends say no, it's just that they don't understand, and would rather just keep chasing illusions and desires. But part of me wonders if that's just a cop out? I mean... the point of all this spiritual work has to ultimately be about finding the true source of happiness and contentment, otherwise what's the point?

The true source of happiness and contentment involves retreating, not pursuing something. Desires lead to suffering ultimately, because they can never be fulfilled.. it's nature's programming designed to keep you moving, shitting, and popping out babies. The highest objective in spiritual work is to find out the Truth, to know who you are, and that doesn't necessarily mean happiness or bliss.. in fact the accounts of Enlightenment appear the very opposite, there's great pain because it's a real death.

So I find myself coming full circle now... my learning has evidently been incomplete because I don't feel content at all. I mean let's be honest, basic human needs are not all that complicated. So why muddy the process with all kinds of frameworks that make it harder to maintain those things? (I know the answer to my own question so it's rather rhetorical.) Whether it's sheer intelligence or other kinds of "higher" knowing (put in quotes because I don't think anything is "better"), how does one cope with being a seeker in a world where, predominantly, people could care less?

How does one cope? I think you're framing it wrong. Either you put your entire being into the process of finding the Truth, or you set it aside and get busy playing in the mud with the rest of humanity.. because it's going to take a massive effort to break the door down. Halfway to eternity is nowhere. But if you are seeking, then finding others on a similar level or one rung above you is a good idea.

Put another way, almost every person I've met with high intelligence or some degree of real spiritual attainment also has a bit of silent suffering due to the isolation of being different or having that special awareness. How do I transform that suffering and connect with the masses again? I don't want to be an outsider, yet I don't feel like I can lower myself by pretending I enjoy the world of illusion the way others do. In other words, I can't fake it to fit in anymore.

Be a friend to people. Not everyone is worthy of your time, there are a lot of sharks out there. But there's plenty of people around who could use a friend.. even if their interests don't interest you, the longer you talk to them the sooner you'll find common threads between your lives. And it's when you reach those moments that you can sometimes attempt to probe a little bit and see if they're receptive to insight/truth.. if not, no problem.. let them be a robot.

If it's any consolation I've always felt like an outsider. Childhood dream related experiences never left me and ultimately pushed me on to a path of seeking answers. I've struggled to relate to those my age who enjoy drinking and drug use all the time, not that I haven't indulged too, but there's always been a part of me that has tried to limit it. Regardless, you shouldn't try to change who you are to please other people whilst remembering that you can't win everyone over. And besides, do you really want to connect with the masses? Fuck the masses, the majority of people simply are not worth your time or effort.. but there are people out there who could use you in their life. Just don't end up being used.

 

[Wontblonk]

I think this thread is great. I don't have time for a full response right now, but I do want to say that, from my experience, it takes lots of guts and effort to find your tribe.

People come and go, and we navigate social circles in complex ways - the sociometry that connects humans is always changing.

But the more I have put out into the world what I am passionate about (e.g., psychology, philosophy, meaning-making), and tried to centre my life around these studies, practically in fields of education or personal development, the more I have had the chance to come across kindred spirits who are involved in similar quests. I still feel isolated a lot of the time, but at least I bump into people who are also dedicated to something similar enough that I can be refreshed.

It's like - you go to a pub to encounter people who like drinking. Where can you go to encounter other people who like philosophizing and/or considering the strange situation of reality? There are places...

Also, it might be useful to ask - what benefit are you getting from isolation? What are you gaining from it?

Buddha went into his Cave for a time - perhaps you are doing the same.

 

[swilow]

I wonder if true knowledge of humanity does automatically entail a certain isolation, considering we are forever completely singular and therefore always separate and alone.

 

[herbavore]

I was blessed to move a lot during my childhood (didn't feel like a blessing at the time) and to have a mother that could be dropped into the backwaters of Mississippi or a sprawling city in Africa or a crazy city like Detroit and immediately find the most wonderful and exciting and interesting people. The result of that was that I grew up knowing that this world, wherever I may find myself in it, is a place full of possibility and an abundance of fascinating people to learn from. She taught me that there is no "outside" to be looking in from. As her daughter I have a slightly different perspective but it is her warm, humble, open acceptance that balances out my pessimism about our species in general. My son used to say that we are the worst virus the world has ever known and, in respect to what troubles you, Foreigner--the materialism, bigotry, denial and delusion--I would have to agree. But individually, I rarely meet a person that I cannot sincerely connect with on some level. Having genuine friendships across all generations and walks of life is an opportunity to break down one's own assumptions.

One thing I have to comment on is the softening that also comes with age and loss. I have had the honor of connecting with many other parents who have lost children to despair (on this site as well as IRL) and though our spiritual beliefs are wildly divergent, we meet in a profound place that makes our beliefs, (as well as our backgrounds of class, race, gender, education, etc.), irrelevant. Compassion is truly all there is in the end. The closer you get to the actual end of your life the easier this is to see--somewhat like being in a beautiful paradise with a return ticket in your hand for day after tomorrow; suddenly the mosquitos don't bother you and you forget about the fact that a jellyfish stung you or the taxi driver was rude and all you can think about is loving and appreciating every last second of this particular beauty you had the good fortune to be a part of.

edit: just thought of a more succinct way to say what my mom teaches me (still, at 84!). She did not find the "good" people as much as she found the good in people. And because people instantly trust that she is offering her most vulnerable self, they respond in kind.

 

[Foreigner]

Peoples responses here have really moved me... some have brought me to tears of truth. I just wanted to post to say I hear all of you and will post my own reply soon.

 

[Wontblonk]

I wonder if true knowledge of humanity does automatically entail a certain isolation, considering we are forever completely singular and therefore always separate and alone.

I often wonder about this, too. If, as many spiritual revelations posit, "we are all one," then there would be nothing to relate with except a multitude of parts from the same whole - other fragments of ourselves.

God must have been alone enough to start hir process of psychodramatic introspection.

 

[Shrooms00087]

I often wonder about this, too. If, as many spiritual revelations posit, "we are all one," then there would be nothing to relate with except a multitude of parts from the same whole - other fragments of ourselves.

Hermeticism clears this up pretty well. "The All is in the All".

God must have been alone enough to start hir process of psychodramatic introspection.

The Drama is real.

 

[Wontblonk]

Hermeticism clears this up pretty well.

Perhaps intellectually it does. The experience can be an emotional kick-in-the-teeth, however.

The Drama is real.

I agree. What isn't?

 

[Deleted member 210577]

I often wonder about this, too. If, as many spiritual revelations posit, "we are all one," then there would be nothing to relate with except a multitude of parts from the same whole - other fragments of ourselves.

God must have been alone enough to start hir process of psychodramatic introspection.

I think the alone part comes from a conflict between the human drive (imprinted by nature) and the emotions associated with being human vs the realization of oneness. I imagine when you're 'there' it just 'is'.. there's no bliss or relative human thinking/emotion.. and it's only after coming back (or going in) to that experience that there is a tremendous amount of pain.

As for why all this exists, my speculation is this whole thing is a hall of mirrors, a mathematical like function, and that it stirs simply by virtue of its properties or something and not because of any motivation on the part of a being or 'god'. It would most certainly be the saddest story imaginable if this were all like a broken record, 'god' trying desperately to break itself into a million pieces in the hopes of finding something other than its self. That thought has crossed my mind on occasion but I put it down to relative human thinking/emotion clouding an intuitive perception.