The isolation of knowing

[Shrooms00087]

Maybe you're all right... maybe my problem isn't spiritual, it's social. I'll have to reflect on this a bit more.

Been processing some heavy and primordial feelings of shame these past couple of months. Maybe I'm mistaking the wood for the trees.

Even the mighty tree sheds its leaves to grow new ones. Shame is nothing but a distraction to your immediacy of Being. God speed.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Ok so let's get into the nitty gritty of this. Spiritual ladders are bullshit and only serve as relativistic metaphors for our learning experience. They matter and they don't at the same time. I mean, we're not all born enlightened, so clearly there must be a linear difference between when I was an infant and the adult I am now -- but not really, because I was present awareness then and that's still all I am now.

But what resonates with what you said is that perhaps the nature of the aloneness that I'm referring to is a natural consequence of the heightened insight and overview I've so far managed to attain. But then... shouldn't I feel closer to people, and not more distant? I've met the rare person who is pretty up there spiritually, and they seem to connect with people lovingly, and effortlessly. If the natural consequence of this work is a greater appreciation of oneness and ego dissolution, then why do people drain me so much? Why can't I be that love that I already am, and just emanate?

There's a piece of the puzzle I'm missing, clearly. It's so obvious that it's making me question the entire path, again.

The spiritual ladder doesn't matter no, it's just a way of delineating the different levels people are at in the world. It's more like a pyramid than a ladder, the majority of people live in an instinctual state, fewer within an emotional experience, fewer still in an intellectual, and one in a million at the philosophic level.. and a handful who've been there and back again. As for being an infant in awareness, we're always present in awareness, but that doesn't mean so much when the mind is still ticking over. Only when you're nothing but awareness are you 'there'/end of the journey, but you have to come back again.

Perhaps people are draining you because that is your reaction to them, that you're trying to involve yourself too much with people and their reactions? It's not your job to be loving to everyone so don't try. I got caught in this similar type of thinking/delusion a few years ago because I was unable to confront myself (and have the confidence to move ahead in life) so instead I started to play games, and caused myself an anxiety/stress/sweating issue/feedback loop that has taken 3 years to undo. A mental problem that caused a physical response.

I'd also say you should try to define 'love' and meditate on that. Being love you expect nothing in return. You're getting caught because there's something in your mind getting caught. And again, it's not your job to love everyone. People are on their own journey and if they don't want a hand then don't get angry, upset, *insert emotion here* because they don't take it.

Materialism is so hard for me right now. I know it's necessary for survival and that drags me down a bit. I spent too much time swallowing the blue pill that said the material world is evil so I should be poor and abstain from worldly pleasures, and now I'm having to go the other way or risk homelessness and who knows what else. It's all oneness so the material isn't separate from the spiritual, but because other humans see it that way it makes it hard for me to navigate from a place of authenticity that won't suffer ostracism, denigration, and abuse.

You're correct in that seeking is pointless. It's about letting go and a sinking into. As Nasargadatta said, there's no action you can take to achieve enlightenment.

I think you're causing yourself problems. The world is messed up, that is a fact, and I think once you let go of that fact you will feel much better. I sure do. It was necessary for me to find out about how the world really works but I got caught up in it too much, not to the extent I believed in lizard men or anything, but enough to affect my mental well being. But yes, we do need to eat and have shelter, and that means work. Another fact to accept and let go of.. you have to work, but you can be smart with money etc, and also not let it take over you life.. AND still pursue a spiritual direction, but that has to be the priority. You can't get married, have a family, get a house and car, have sex half a dozen times a week and expect to find an ultimate answer. You got to make a choice, what is important to you.. do you really want to know the Truth?

This. In a nutshell. And I've been plain nutbar from the stark contrast between what the outside world is saying and what I'm going through. Seems like most mental "illness" is really just people living in an incredibly unnatural, unhealthy way.

The thing I'm questioning now, which is causing me pain, is the whole robot notion. Are we any better, for having been educated and practicing awareness? I mean... all this work and investment into the spiritual... maybe we're halfway to nowhere ourselves.

Better? Again you're framing it all wrong my friend, and I hate to be the one to tell you.. but we are all mud. Until you know everything you know nothing. Being better is a human concept, an attempted evaluation. Better in what sense? From what point are you trying to make that definition and evaluation? If you look from natures perspective the best humans are those who pop out the most babies!

You are right about us being halfway to nowhere.. but don't chuck it in on a whim. Your animal body is obviously making suggestions to you.. go get laid being the primary one.. because you've dropped your guard and are feeling tired of the spiritual search. The Richard Rose man i mentioned to you, he was celibate for several years and then started losing his hair/teeth and got fed up with the search, went to Seattle to chase a woman he knew, got rejected, and then boom.. his head popped. Trauma and despair is part of the journey. Real philosophy comes out of adversity, through the challenges life throws at you.

You're obviously thinking about stuff, which is good. Take these things to be a 'koan'.. study it, meditate on it, and you'll push through. When you reach a wall it is something inside yourself you're about to break through/down, and it causes pain because like any living thing it doesn't want to go down easily.

So, do as much as is necessary to maintain oneself, and go no further?

Can you elaborate more on the intense suffering of enlightenment? That subject interests me.

And while we're at it... what is enlightenment and why do people always talk about it? Seems like there can't be enlightenment without desire either, at least initially. Then, if your request was sincere enough, the stark reality sinks in of what it is you actually asked for. As someone asked me above, what is it that we're even seeking here?

It depends on what you want. Do you want to know the Truth above all else in your life? Or are you playing with the spiritual idea to avoid living or some other aspect of yourself, or the world? Whilst i think a lot of people have good hearts and intentions in the spiritual circuit, I do believe the majority aren't really as interested in knowing the answers as they would like to think.. it's just more of a hobby or weekend thing, or a character thing etc. If people knew what was really involved in finding the Truth, or what Enlightenment really is, I don't think many would want it!

As I haven't experienced it myself I can only relate through the words I've read and what I've picked up in writings that relates to the minor glimpses I've had along the way. The intense despair comes as you die, it's a real death.. up to that point you've stripped most of your ego's away but the last ones are the hope of spiritual immortality and the survival ego, and they're taken from you. You face oblivion, and that causes a lot of pain. Also the realization that none of this is real, that you aren't real either, causes great despair.. you are a figment, and apparition, smoke and mirrors. This gets pushed around on the internet a lot and people think they understand it, but until you experience it directly you have no idea of the depth of sorrow it generates. Everyone you've loved, including yourself, becomes nothing more significant than characters on a TV screen, and you know without a shadow of a doubt that none of this is real. To say and think about it is one thing, but to actually experience it, to KNOW it directly, is something else.

Enlightenment is becoming the Truth. Getting the full picture by becoming it. Obviously it requires a desire or push to get you in that direction, no one of their own accord wants to go down that road because deep down inside a part of you already knows what it entails and what the Truth is. I can't tell you what you're seeking without meeting you in person. If you met me you would not likely recognize me as a spiritually inclined person. I don't chant, I don't sit in poses, or anything out of the ordinary. I'm just a guy with long hair in jeans and a t-shirt. If you got to know me you might pick it up. What I realized a couple years ago was that the process of finding the Truth is not about defining in advance, it is about stripping away the falsehoods and untruth from your life. And whilst a lot of spiritual practices and culture does some good, it's a layer that is not necessary. The Truth is everywhere, you don't need to go to India for it.

Right. I keep meeting those people one rung above. They just appear in my life, like messengers. I'm pretty much at the point now where I have to make the choice to put my entire being into the process of truth, or let this go and pursue a life of material peace and prosperity. Maybe the two are not mutually exclusive. Most of what's holding me back right now is material stuff... like survival level stuff. Since enlightenment is spontaneous and there's no formula, it can happen anywhere, but I do believe that, in general, some degree of economic capital / self-sufficiency is needed for this path to continue. So I'm being forced to dive into the material to secure that. I just can't relate to this part of the world, but everywhere else it's same shit different pile.

You can live in the material and pursue the spiritual, but your priority has to be the spiritual. Sounds like you're getting caught up in the material and giving a damn. Let it be, stop worrying about how it is or what it's going to become. It's all a shit pile, all of it. We're indoctrinated to care about it through school and parents, but at the end of the day it is nothing more than a collective fantasy that holds no real value. If it were to collapse tomorrow, no problem.. life will still go on. Maybe you need to find the right environment where you can earn a living but also not be overwhelmed by the material culture. Living in the city takes a lot of energy, hence why I do not want to ever end up back there. You can't change the way things are, so either go on your way spiritually and DO it, or go back to playing games and not giving a fuck. Humanity will take care of itself, and if you want to be involved in changing it that's great, but it will probably chew you up.

Yep exactly. And I have my robotic ways as well, I'm not above it all. I'm still relating from ego a lot of the time too, but the other awareness is encroaching more and more, trying to snuff it out.

Sounds like you need to retreat and be somewhere where you can put your mind to this problem until you get it figured out. I don't want to advise you on what to do, but I think you should read some of Richard Rose's writings. If anything it will stir you up more, get you thinking on this whole thing. This transcript is good, and about our robot nature. There's some good papers available for free on that website, from Rose and other writers. Good meditation material.: http://www.searchwithin.org/download/are_you_a_robot.pdf

No, the masses can fuck off, basically... but basic human needs like physical contact, a sense of belonging, communication, etc (our animal side) needs fulfillment. It's like trying to be all crown chakra when the root or second chakras are completely unfulfilled. I've seen so many people pursue spirituality in order to maintain deep denial and avoidance of their personal, corporeal issues. It's all part and parcel. If you aren't coming from a place of authentic self then the spiritual work won't dissolve anything. Self needs completion and acknowledgment before it becomes a non-issue. That's kind of where I'm at... delving into this bodily self that is so wounded, to release wounds, so that other levels of consciousness can unfold.

But it's incredibly painful. I might go from suicidiality to bliss within a single day. The pendulum swings wildly right now and there are forces fighting within me for dominance. And in my times of needing to reach out, I realize that no one can help me. Not really. Not with this kind of work. It's not psychiatric, otherwise I would love to just go get medicated... but I can't numb this. I refuse. Maybe someone on the same part of the ladder or just above could offer insight... but in the end this is my responsibility, my karma if you will. I just realized (this second)... the isolation I'm experiencing is fear of death. When you're dying, your instinct is to reach out to anyone and everyone. I've been an introvert for years and now suddenly I want to surround myself with people 24/7, not wanting to be alone. I'm fighting death. No one can help because no one really knows anyone, and that's the intense loneliness I'm dealing with. I'm dying and there's nothing anyone can do.

Yes. We do need contact as animals, and that causes me perhaps the most pain of all due to my British upbringing ^_^ I don't think you need to "complete your self" or anything, that to me sounds like a rationalization or sexual drive ego talking. We need to procreate and have intimacy, but there's nothing there to complete.. it's just programming. Maybe you're building it up to be something bigger than it is? Every time I've had sex I've always thought immediately afterwards what the point of that was.. my body feels great, I had connection with the person, but I feel used by something else. You don't need to create more issues for yourself by "exploring your sexuality" or anything like that. If you want to heal yourself just look inside, that's all you need to do. The worst advice anyone can get is "go out and explore your sexuality" to remedy inner issues. You'll be happy for a brief moment, but it won't undo the wounds or take you any place. To undo the wounds you need to go inside and see them. Unfortunately our sexuality is a big thing.. it always has been, and why the big religions have always struggled to place it correctly. They know, or used to anyway, that there's something more to sex beyond body to body contact.. hence the moral code that developed (no masturbation, no homosexuality, etc).. people hate that idea in our liberal world, but you are only protected from the influence of malign entities when you are strictly heterosexual or celibate completely. The trick is recognize sex for what is and not get caught up in it all. That doesn't mean being anti-sex, but just acknowledging that there is a healthy way of doing things and an unhealthy way (which is common these days. very common).

Ultimately you go it alone. No one can hold your hand through to the end, because in the end it is only you there. Only you know your situation and again I don't want to advise you on what to do, but I think you need to get away for a little while, change your environment, but do it so you can focus on this thing and sort it out. I don't know, there's so many things to consider and I know nothing about you or your situation so again I feel reluctant to offer any advise (not that you'll necessarily take any of it).

 

[Foreigner]

Thanks again for taking the time, you have my profound respect. And please keep challenging whatever I say. I want you to cross examine it. This is helping me a lot (and I hope it helps you too).

The spiritual ladder doesn't matter no, it's just a way of delineating the different levels people are at in the world. It's more like a pyramid than a ladder, the majority of people live in an instinctual state, fewer within an emotional experience, fewer still in an intellectual, and one in a million at the philosophic level.. and a handful who've been there and back again. As for being an infant in awareness, we're always present in awareness, but that doesn't mean so much when the mind is still ticking over. Only when you're nothing but awareness are you 'there'/end of the journey, but you have to come back again.

So your perspective is that enlightenment is something that we glimpse, not something that we "stay" in 24/7?

Perhaps people are draining you because that is your reaction to them, that you're trying to involve yourself too much with people and their reactions?

Hmmm... it's not a matter of reactivity most of the time, even though some of the time it certainly is. It's a matter of involuntarily letting people in and attaching their leeching cords to me. It occurs to me today that I should just consciously cut those cords as I feel them forming, and try my best to just be present and emanate loving light. I'd require no "protection" then.

I don't mean give them love, I mean *be* love. It's about my internalization, not what the external world wants/needs. It's just hard to be love all the time... I'm not there yet and don't know that I'll ever be.

It's not your job to be loving to everyone so don't try.

I don't... but I would imagine that a consciousness at the love level could do it effortlessly and without trying.

I got caught in this similar type of thinking/delusion a few years ago because I was unable to confront myself (and have the confidence to move ahead in life) so instead I started to play games, and caused myself an anxiety/stress/sweating issue/feedback loop that has taken 3 years to undo. A mental problem that caused a physical response.

Ditto... and upon further examination, I believe it to be partly be a product of the post-colonial mentality... that the world needs "saving", and that it's our job to do it. When really, nothing is wrong, nothing ultimately matters, and nothing needs doing.

I'd also say you should try to define 'love' and meditate on that. Being love you expect nothing in return. You're getting caught because there's something in your mind getting caught. And again, it's not your job to love everyone. People are on their own journey and if they don't want a hand then don't get angry, upset, *insert emotion here* because they don't take it.

Agree 100% and thank you for this reminder.

You can't get married, have a family, get a house and car, have sex half a dozen times a week and expect to find an ultimate answer. You got to make a choice, what is important to you.. do you really want to know the Truth?

Not sure that either of us is qualified to say what we can or cannot do here. My understanding is that you can do any of these things as long as you know it's all inherently empty. I mean... take sex for example... what about tantrikas and dakinis? What about daoism where sex is sacred and a method of touching on the All That Is? We've established that intense suffering can bring us the necessary ego death, but is suffering the only route?

That's what I'm getting at here... enlightenment seems to be this spontaneous thing that is capable of manifesting in any number of random circumstances. I don't think we can succinctly describe "ideal" recipes here. Saying we should exclude this and this, and include that, is hearsay really.

Better? Again you're framing it all wrong my friend, and I hate to be the one to tell you.. but we are all mud. Until you know everything you know nothing. Being better is a human concept, an attempted evaluation. Better in what sense? From what point are you trying to make that definition and evaluation? If you look from natures perspective the best humans are those who pop out the most babies!

Let me qualify it further. I mean "better" as in the methods. i.e.... seek the Truth or get down in the muck of the human world. I've got news for you, you are in the muck (if you wish to frame it that way) of the human world whether you know you are seeking Truth or not. It's inevitable. You can choose to take conscientious consciousness with you anywhere, or abandon it and let yourself slip into forgetfulness. At the end of the day no one is in control here. I said "better" because there seems to be a subtle righteousness happening where this over here is better than that over there, in this case it is Truth vs. the material world and that just seems like separation talking. It's not a zero sum game. All of this is empty, and no matter where you are you can't get anymore into it than that. I could be tilling shit in a field and suddenly experience a revelation. I mean, the Truth is wherever you are, right?

You are right about us being halfway to nowhere.. but don't chuck it in on a whim. Your animal body is obviously making suggestions to you.. go get laid being the primary one.. because you've dropped your guard and are feeling tired of the spiritual search. The Richard Rose man i mentioned to you, he was celibate for several years and then started losing his hair/teeth and got fed up with the search, went to Seattle to chase a woman he knew, got rejected, and then boom.. his head popped. Trauma and despair is part of the journey. Real philosophy comes out of adversity, through the challenges life throws at you.

I see you have a particular bent against sex, not sure why, but it's not really my business. I don't view sex as a zero sum game as you do. It's more than possible to experience Divine unity through such an act, if both people are at a sufficient level of attainment to do so. I know because it has happened to me... a fully embodied tantric experience where you are everything and nothing simultaneously. And why should that be impossible? Anywhere you are, the work is happening, and that includes fucking or being fucked. *shrug* Maybe my animal body is making suggestions, but that doesn't have to be all that's happening. Why deprive when you can revel.

Yes... at the highest level, none of this matters, and nothing needs doing. We. Should. Just. Stop. But since we aren't doing that, and we have to "come back", then why deprive ourselves? You can take the awareness with you into anything. And I'm not saying all this to justify some kind of lusciously sexual or hedonistic lifestyle (trust me that's really far from the mark lol).

Despair and suffering are excellent vehicles for awakening along the path, but why artificially stay there via deprivation? If one can't take the hard earned philosophy with one into the human world then what the fuck has one really learned? It's not even about the notion of temptation. The refuge is useful for a time, but if you want to be a bodhisattva then you can't stay there forever. Or maybe you can. I dunno. It's not my place to say really.

You're obviously thinking about stuff, which is good. Take these things to be a 'koan'.. study it, meditate on it, and you'll push through. When you reach a wall it is something inside yourself you're about to break through/down, and it causes pain because like any living thing it doesn't want to go down easily.

Tell me about it... there have been many episodes of this throughout my life but the past couple of months have felt like the perfect setup combined with kicking me while I'm down so that I just get a clue already. Layers upon layers, I suppose.

It depends on what you want. Do you want to know the Truth above all else in your life? Or are you playing with the spiritual idea to avoid living or some other aspect of yourself, or the world?

Coming to terms with the fact that it's been a combination of both, to be honest. The recent clarity (insanity?) has helped with weeding some of the inauthentic, avoidant parts a little bit more than usual. But man... what a fuck show it's been.

In the softest, more graceful and immortal words of a cherished guru I've been listening to for a while now: just stop. That's what I want. I don't want to know the Truth. I don't care about knowing. I just want to completely let go and surrender. There is no "Truth" really worth knowing except the one that's beyond knowing, and I'm not in control of it so (and I mean this in the most benevolent way possible) who cares?

I'm in love with a mystery I don't understand. I'm not in control here and in fact I'm tired of grasping.

Whilst i think a lot of people have good hearts and intentions in the spiritual circuit, I do believe the majority aren't really as interested in knowing the answers as they would like to think.. it's just more of a hobby or weekend thing, or a character thing etc. If people knew what was really involved in finding the Truth, or what Enlightenment really is, I don't think many would want it!

Right... which is part of the isolation I experience because seeking a community of sangha is always difficult when you are dealing with varying degrees of willingness to know the truth, on top of the usual koolaid that people are serving for some kind of egotistical or righteous purposes.

As I haven't experienced it myself I can only relate through the words I've read and what I've picked up in writings that relates to the minor glimpses I've had along the way. The intense despair comes as you die, it's a real death.. up to that point you've stripped most of your ego's away but the last ones are the hope of spiritual immortality and the survival ego, and they're taken from you. You face oblivion, and that causes a lot of pain. Also the realization that none of this is real, that you aren't real either, causes great despair.. you are a figment, and apparition, smoke and mirrors. This gets pushed around on the internet a lot and people think they understand it, but until you experience it directly you have no idea of the depth of sorrow it generates. Everyone you've loved, including yourself, becomes nothing more significant than characters on a TV screen, and you know without a shadow of a doubt that none of this is real. To say and think about it is one thing, but to actually experience it, to KNOW it directly, is something else.

I've experienced all of this... the embodied experience, not the parroted knowledge. I've been through such intense suffering that a switch flipped and I remembered the Truth. But as you said, you have to come back. And when you do, you can forget, until you come full circle again. Even though ego is empty, it comes across as being very real. When you experience the Truth through emptiness, ego does return when you "come back", but the awareness behind ego has a different quality to it. Hard to describe.

Enlightenment is becoming the Truth. Getting the full picture by becoming it. Obviously it requires a desire or push to get you in that direction, no one of their own accord wants to go down that road because deep down inside a part of you already knows what it entails and what the Truth is. I can't tell you what you're seeking without meeting you in person. If you met me you would not likely recognize me as a spiritually inclined person. I don't chant, I don't sit in poses, or anything out of the ordinary. I'm just a guy with long hair in jeans and a t-shirt. If you got to know me you might pick it up. What I realized a couple years ago was that the process of finding the Truth is not about defining in advance, it is about stripping away the falsehoods and untruth from your life. And whilst a lot of spiritual practices and culture does some good, it's a layer that is not necessary. The Truth is everywhere, you don't need to go to India for it.

Like I said a few paragraphs above, I think just stopping is the solution. Just. Stop.

I have no qualms with your appearance, that stuff doesn't matter.

You can live in the material and pursue the spiritual, but your priority has to be the spiritual. Sounds like you're getting caught up in the material and giving a damn.

It's survival stuff. Hard to be spiritual when you're about to be evicted and the next meal is an issue. I saw a talk by David Suzuki two nights ago in my city, and he said that the research on wealth and happiness is pretty clear. For the first while, income increases bring contentment, but beyond a certain amount it plateaus and no more emotional utility can be gained no matter how much money you earn. That's kind of where I'm at... I'd be content with the basics. Beyond that I couldn't care less about the rat race.

Let it be, stop worrying about how it is or what it's going to become. It's all a shit pile, all of it.

Can't look at it through that harsh lens, sorry.

We're indoctrinated to care about it through school and parents, but at the end of the day it is nothing more than a collective fantasy that holds no real value. If it were to collapse tomorrow, no problem.. life will still go on. Maybe you need to find the right environment where you can earn a living but also not be overwhelmed by the material culture. Living in the city takes a lot of energy, hence why I do not want to ever end up back there. You can't change the way things are, so either go on your way spiritually and DO it, or go back to playing games and not giving a fuck. Humanity will take care of itself, and if you want to be involved in changing it that's great, but it will probably chew you up.

There's no part of me here that wants to go back to not giving a fuck, and even if I wanted to it would be impossible. Can't put pandora back in the box, not really. There's only a mild forgetfulness until something happens to remind me that this isn't real.

The city is indeed draining but again the work happens wherever, and I'm not in control. If I leave the city then that's just the way of things. I don't pretend to know how all this all works, I just know that I need to stop. There is something working through me, through all of us, that is really calling the shots. Don't ask me what that is... but it's closer to the Truth than anything my monkey mind can come up with.

Sounds like you need to retreat and be somewhere where you can put your mind to this problem until you get it figured out. I don't want to advise you on what to do, but I think you should read some of Richard Rose's writings. If anything it will stir you up more, get you thinking on this whole thing. This transcript is good, and about our robot nature. There's some good papers available for free on that website, from Rose and other writers. Good meditation material.: http://www.searchwithin.org/download/are_you_a_robot.pdf

I've been to refuges galore. Same shit, different pile really. I just lived in pristine countryside for 3 months and was faced with the same shit. Now I'm back in the city, where it's the same shit. It's funny because some part of me naively thought that I could get clearer on this "over there", only to be confronted by the same obvious reality of complete unrealness. The location doesn't matter and I'm kind of done with searching in that way.

I'm not sure that thinking or mind are really going to help this beyond using language to trigger internal shifts. If anything language is a hindrance at this point... it builds it all up categorically only to come full circle again and have it all shot back down. When I really need is embodied awareness. I need all this heady stuff to sink down corporeally so that I become that which I already am. Ugh... language... such a pest.

Thanks for the references, I will look them up

Yes. We do need contact as animals, and that causes me perhaps the most pain of all due to my British upbringing ^_^ I don't think you need to "complete your self" or anything, that to me sounds like a rationalization or sexual drive ego talking. We need to procreate and have intimacy, but there's nothing there to complete.. it's just programming.

Not sure it's totally that simple. Yes, on an animal level perhaps. But as someone recently reminded me... you can be the candle or you can be the mirror for the candle to reflect in. Intimate relationships offer that dynamic. You see yourself (as emptiness) reflected back at you. It's the same with children, who perhaps have this more innocently figured out than the adults do. And as material as it is, this body can't be neglected... its states of being affect the rest of the system holistically. I mean, how often were we held growing up? When do people really hold one another, tenderly and lovingly? Sometimes I wonder if all this spiritual seeking of the Truth in isolation could simply be remedied with human tenderness.

Maybe you're building it up to be something bigger than it is? Every time I've had sex I've always thought immediately afterwards what the point of that was.. my body feels great, I had connection with the person, but I feel used by something else. You don't need to create more issues for yourself by "exploring your sexuality" or anything like that. If you want to heal yourself just look inside, that's all you need to do.

I get you, but as a healer (professionally and existentially) I don't think we can do our "woundology" in vacuo, much like how our spiritual path for the Truth is always challenged by the world at large. I've experienced healing from sexual encounters, but I respect that you may feel sex is an unacceptable leak in your integrity. I can't speak for you or your path.

The worst advice anyone can get is "go out and explore your sexuality" to remedy inner issues. You'll be happy for a brief moment, but it won't undo the wounds or take you any place. To undo the wounds you need to go inside and see them.

Yup.

Unfortunately our sexuality is a big thing.. it always has been, and why the big religions have always struggled to place it correctly.

Why unfortunately? We have sexuality for a reason. It's a mode of connection, yes carnally, but also existentially. I mean.... I could eat this sandwich like a rabid pig who just needs to quench hunger and feel good, or I can savor each bite, feel its molecules integrating with my body and suffusing my consciousness with vital energy. Or I can acknowledge that there is no sandwich or anyone eating it. It's just a matter of perspective. The only Truth I seem to garner from these fluctuations is the ever present awareness that never changes. I can be at work toiling for money or having my teeth pulled and either way there's just emptiness observing.

They know, or used to anyway, that there's something more to sex beyond body to body contact.. hence the moral code that developed (no masturbation, no homosexuality, etc).. people hate that idea in our liberal world, but you are only protected from the influence of malign entities when you are strictly heterosexual or celibate completely. The trick is recognize sex for what is and not get caught up in it all. That doesn't mean being anti-sex, but just acknowledging that there is a healthy way of doing things and an unhealthy way (which is common these days. very common).

Personally I wouldn't go there. Religion's views on sexuality are an extremely convoluted head trip with a lot of guilt and fear inserted. I wouldn't assume that because the assertions are timeless that they necessarily hold validity. As an institution, Churches and their equivalents have maybe provided societal structures in the past, but in many ways they are past their expiration date. Most Christians, for example, are incredibly difficult to lead through meditations because they have been so traumatized by fear that they believe if they don't guard their mind every second that the devil might get in. There's this secret fear that behind the unconditional love of God is really a deity that hates your guts; that you're always loved and looked after but oh, do this and go to Hell. That basically sums up the old world view on sexuality. If you're not breeding their next generation of worshipers then your sex is sin and you will burn. All the while the clergy engage in all manner of incestuous behavior because yes, even clergy are humans, and yes they need to channel that energy too. Sex is part and parcel with spirituality, not separate from it. When people pretend it's separate and irrelevant then they start degenerating in all sorts of weird ways -- most of the time.

It's not so much about liberalism as it is human reality. We are sexual creatures. Depriving ourselves of sexual outlets leads to unwellness, just like excessive sex leads to unwellness. No masturbation? How about proper containment of sexual energy? You can masturbate all you want but if you're spilling vital energy or being addictive about it then that's a problem. You can take virtually any human vice and turn it into a virtue, with correct practice.

I don't really get the bit about homosexuality... most religions made that shit up to make sure their followers would keep popping out babies. I've been homosexual since birth and I've never had malign entities visit me as a product of sex in of itself, and trust me I would know. Doesn't mean I haven't been with the odd creepo along the way, but that's not a uniquely homosexual thing either, and on the flipside I've had the privilege of having high level partners who get at least some of this. Sorry, I just find it odd that you have so many heightened awarenesses but you randomly have a beef with homosexuality in there. But I guess we all have our triggers.

Ultimately you go it alone. No one can hold your hand through to the end, because in the end it is only you there. Only you know your situation and again I don't want to advise you on what to do, but I think you need to get away for a little while, change your environment, but do it so you can focus on this thing and sort it out. I don't know, there's so many things to consider and I know nothing about you or your situation so again I feel reluctant to offer any advise (not that you'll necessarily take any of it).

I do need refuge, but I don't necessarily think it's a place. My refuge has to come in the form of some kind of spiritual community, here in the city, but ultimately from within myself. It's hard to be surrounded by mundanity for so long. I'm not a prophet and I can't maintain utter resiliency all the time, not when the onslaught of stimulus here is designed to reduce you to your most animal desires. And at the same time I can't afford to hide. I have to "dive into the muck" as you put it in order to eke out a living, and to have balance.

It's interesting because I thought that debunking shame would help me have a stronger sense of authentic self, but really all that is happened is that self has fallen away even more. I guess that's because shame is a flawed reference to something that is inherently empty. Remove the shame and ego has less of a story to stand on. But there is peace in that emptiness... in being able to just stop.

 

[rickolasnice]

Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer gets a crayon removed from his brain, becomes super intelligent to only be hated by everyone around him.

He puts the crayon back in his brain.

 

[JackARoe]

He puts the crayon back in his brain.

LOL, so true. Seems love is a force that holds many things together. We grow up, meet a partner, have families, work, listen to music, go to festivals and everything else because we love too. Dismissing love would dismiss most of the creative motivations for humans. Even science is pursued because we love the fascination and awe. If love came to be and stemmed simply by the function of the human brain, it certainly has driven humanity in almost all areas and is one of the greater forces.

Good post OP. Still digesting it and all the responses. Every single response hass been thought provoking.

 

[herbavore]

Tree (by Jane Hirschfield)


It is foolish
to let a young redwood
grow next to a house.

Even in this
one lifetime,
you will have to choose.

That great calm being,
this clutter of soup pots and books—

Already the first branch-tips brush at the window.
Softly, calmly, immensity taps at your life.

My favorite line in this poem is "softly, calmly, immensity taps at your life". I feel very lucky to be so in love with life--the soup pots and the tree, the incredible gift of infinite choices, the beautiful tensions between day to day living and life itself, the weightlessness of never having to feel certain, the joy of being and the joy of doing. The way the awareness of mortality seems to make it all easier as I get older.

 

[Foreigner]

^ Another quote I heard recently which is so relevant right now is:

"There is a desire that arises in certain lifetimes that is not your ordinary kind of desire. We are familiar with ordinary desires, they are part of the perpetuation of life form: a desire to eat serves the continuance of the life form. It's a natural desire founded in all kingdoms, and it's fine.

But this desire for true freedom, desire for real fulfillment which appears in your lifetime, paradoxically, can only be realized if you don't do anything for its realization. Now, this cannot be believed, and so you are given lots of things to do, but what you are given to do is designed to wear down your desire for doing." - Gangaji

 

[cire113]

After only reading the first post here's the issue foreigner;

The universe or god does not wish the game of human ignorance to end or the game of illusion to be over with so easily ...

It's almost like its fun for us to get lost in the human game of ignorance and ego .

That's also why when you attain self realization it is quite an amazing experience ;

you can only reach an awareness from ignorance ;

That is why only a select few have awakenings compared to the masses;

But the truth is awakening is so simple it is nothing special yet when those realize the truth all you can do is sigh in relief and enjoy the journey

And without getting too complicated in life before enlightenment chop wood and carry water

After enlightenment chop wood carry water ; I'm sure you've heard this but what does It really mean ?

Life doesn't change but only our awareness and perception of the illusion does;

Realize the only true reality is always the present which is the eternal and divine now ;

Realize and accept deep underneath you are really Brahman pretending to be something else

You have probably learned now to just enjoy the ride and not take life too seriously compared to many others ;

Do what you love and love what you do;

Realize you have the true power to create and life any life you wish to create ;

Knowing your true identity and connection with all that exists puts you in a huge advantage in this reality.

When you realize this reality is an illusion you will begin to learn how much tremendous power you one person really has .

Use all your gifts and talents to experience the joy love and bliss of knowing that this is all a divine play.

Anyways just enjoy the ride and realize it's just that ;

 

[cire113]

Also foreigner i can tell you all your questions will be answered in your lifetime for the path you are in has a thirst that will most Definetly be attained in this lifetime.

It's obvious to me that your soul will eventually get what it's seeking in this incarnation

However you are still stuck much within the mind ; anyways I will elaborate this weekend when I have a real computer and more time .

But basically to me enlightenment is realizing that ones consciousness is not separate but is the ONE and ONLy actual consciousness that serves as the non-dual substratum of the universe.

I am all that exists and connected to all that exists;

Only that I have throw myself into a wild game of pretending I am not that .(which most humans are playing )

How amazing the experience would be to realize I am that!

My true identity is that of Brahaman, Supreme concciousness, GOD, IT,

Whatever name you want to name it has no name and words cannot even come close to describe its omnipotence, omniscience, etc ex

Anyways this stuff is very hard to describe and talk about it

I still have immense difficulty describing in human language my own experiences which everything I'm claiming is no universal truth for all just what I have come to EXPERIENCE

Not read about or think about ;


A lot of this stuff transcends and goes outside the human mind but it's Important to realize the purpose of the mind for the role it plays In our experiencing this reality .

You are already on the path you need not worry or do anything for it will overtime come to YOU.

Also I've found enlightenment to be a paradox in that it is spontaneous in some sense but also is the kind of thing where your level of awareness just gets deeper and the learning never ends.

Life is amazing and the way that it is all set up is brilliant .

But Foreigner trust me just let go and I guarantee it will all come together just have patience and enjoy the ride

 

[Foreigner]

Thanks cire... I really appreciate that, and I look forward to hearing more from you...

I do realize now that a big portion of this for me has been mind.