Quitting/Tapering Thread.

[Nozphexezest]

Thanks Brewster.

Hey, welcome back big ears!

A month clean, huh? How you feeling?

Pretty good all things considered. I felt pretty sick a few days ago. Nothing I can't handle. A.A.'s really helpful, that's for sure.

 

[footscrazy]

^ Really well done, that's a massive effort.

I wish I found A.A/N.A. more useful because I can see the value of that sort of thing. I just can't get over the one dimensional view of addiction that seems to be upheld there, the powerless shit, plus having to call yourself an addict every time you check in. There was an awesome article over in DiTM recently - you don't say, there's my mum, the schizophrenia, or my uncle, the cancer, so why do we say, this is me, the addict, as if that's what defines you? Just a bugbear of mine. I get a lot out of SMART meetings though. If you haven't already, Nozphexezest, I highly recommend checking one out, if there's one near you

 

[Nozphexezest]

I wish I found A.A/N.A. more useful because I can see the value of that sort of thing. I just can't get over the one dimensional view of addiction that seems to be upheld there, the powerless shit, plus having to call yourself an addict every time you check in.

I've thought about those things, too. And I've come to my reasoning behind it. I don't think their view of addiction is necessarily one dimensional. I think they're pretty liberal, actually. Maybe not in the book, but each individual has a differing opinion. And I've found they're not demanding on anything. The only problem I see is some meetings don't let drug addicts/non-alcoholics talk; but I guess that's just a conservative meeting that wants to specifically focus on alcoholism.

As for the powerless. Well, I am kind of powerless. That's not to say I don't have the willpower to overcome addiction. It's just without the help of other things, like people or what they call a higher power, I would submit to my drug of choice. The way I see it, at least for now, my higher power is just the sense of serenity that comes from seeing the stars, or taking a walk or whatever. That's why I think all of these A.A. members get some satisfaction from prayer and meditation - because it gives them a similar peace of mind that comes from seeing a nice view or listening to a nice song. I don't know if that makes much sense. I guess in short, my higher power is just art. In a very broad sense of the word.

As for identifying as a drug addict, I've never really had a problem with that. I have a drug addiction, and I think saying "I'm a drug addict" is just to make the phrasing easier. I know I'm more than just a drug addict.

With that being said, these are just my thoughts. They're not solid beliefs. I'm just taking it easy right now.

I doubt there's a SMART in my town. There's not even an N.A. any more. Oh well, I'll check it out if I'm ever in Brisbane. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Christ!]

That SMART program sounds really good. Been turned off NA for similar reasons...mainly from books and other stuff I've read not personal experience, I hate labels.

You make perfect sense Noz, doesn't sound so bad actually.

Made an appointment with an addiction specialist. Feel like I need to get off all pharmaceuticals/drugs to see what's underneath, or else I'll just keep going around in circles. Benefits from opiates like being more sociable/focus/anti-anxiety seems to fade so quick these days.

 

[Nozphexezest]

Made an appointment with an addiction specialist. Feel like I need to get off all pharmaceuticals/drugs to see what's underneath, or else I'll just keep going around in circles.

It depends on what medication you're using. Or drugs. I know when I tried quitting 12 months ago I was put on 100mg sertraline, and it was a fucking awful idea. Even weeks later I would go bloody days without sleep. And no doctor told me it was the sertraline causing it - I honestly thought it was some post withdrawals. By the time I realised it was the sertraline, it was too late and I was using again.

Benefits from opiates like being more sociable/focus/anti-anxiety seems to fade so quick these days.

Tell me about it. I got social anxiety. Shit, who doesn't these days? The internet has turned more than a few of us into anti-social pains. With that being said, I've always heard people saying x drug makes you feel "more you" - like alcohol reduces your inhibitions, ecstasy makes your care more and opiates make you cope better. Fuck that. You are who you are sober, flaws and everything. Alcohol turns me into a rambling idiot, ecstasy makes me think yelling at people outside a 7/11 is a "divine experience" and opiates turn me into a zombie with a tape recorder playing the same message over and over again.

 

[Halif]

You are who you are sober, flaws and everything

Yep. It's important to have some good long stretches of sobriety to get know what you're all about, flaws and all.

You sound kind of angry, Noz. That's how I feel a lot of the time when sober. Although in my case it's more frustration than anger, and the fact that there's no one or no thing to put the blame on makes it hard because I can't lash out "righteously".

Drugs, the internet, whatever, they're all just things and you'll get out of them what you put in. You can only be you, whether sober or not. It's surprisingly hard for some to simply exist.

I liked your drawing, by the way.

 

[Nozphexezest]

You sound kind of angry, Noz. That's how I feel a lot of the time when sober.

Haha. Nah. I'm alright. I just have a real head-first optimism - especially over the past week. I don't like being one to hate all drugs, but they don't really work for me. For the times I've used psychedelics for spirituality and creativity, I've ended up with nothing but a blank canvas. And for the times I've used alcohol to enjoy myself at a social gathering, I end up losing my head and just feeling like absolute shit. And for the times I've used opiates to simply cope with life - well look how far that got me. And I started browsing this site at, what, age 15 or 16? And I joined when I was 17. I didn't have a very healthy outlook on drugs at the time.

I liked your drawing, by the way.

Thanks. It was mostly just a joke. I'll upload one of my latest drawings. It's a good example of what I mean by the "blank canvas" comment.

 

[Halif]

Wonderfully organic, flowing lines and very easy on the eye. Have you been a drawer for a long time? Seems like something that you could really make something out of. By which I mean create your own personal art, which is ultimately more satisfying than any drug experience I've ever had.

Drugs have just removed certain blockages so that I can enjoy the fundamental aspect of creating. I'm into music creation, by the way. My brother and mother are the drawing/painting artists. I enjoy doodling but I don't have a natural feel for it.

I think you got into drugs more heavily at a younger age than I did. I can see that having a detrimental effect on personal growth which might leave you feeling let down in a sense. I was actually drawn to spirituality and tried to explore/alter my conscious states via means other than substances before I really got into using drugs.

I just drank alcohol from an unusually early age because it helped me to subdue emotional outbursts which scared me.

 

[Nozphexezest]

Wonderfully organic, flowing lines and very easy on the eye. Have you been a drawer for a long time? Seems like something that you could really make something out of. By which I mean create your own personal art, which is ultimately more satisfying than any drug experience I've ever had.

Thanks! Yeah, I've just been casually drawing since I was a kid. I did take an art class at school. That was about it, though - at least for visual arts. I definitely want to make bigger, better bodies of art one day. In the mean time I just draw something over a few hours to keep me occupied. I only just started drawing again - opiates never let me draw either. Maybe just because I was too bloody lazy at the time.

Drugs have just removed certain blockages so that I can enjoy the fundamental aspect of creating. I'm into music creation, by the way.

What instrument do you play? Or is it electronic/production? I wish I could play a guitar. A bit late for that now. Oh well. I'd feel pretty hopeless right now if I didn't have a creative outlet. I should show more appreciation for my drawing ability.

I was actually drawn to spirituality and tried to explore/alter my conscious states via means other than substances before I really got into using drugs.

Same, really. Or so I thought. I really don't like the concept of achieving spiritual enlightenment through drugs. That's not to say psychedelics don't provide perspective, but some people get carried away with it. People end up changing their philosophy of Life to something completely detached from reality (like the brain in a vat thought), and after a while, at least in my case, people end up feeling they have to use drugs to maintain their spirituality. Funnily enough, I could never meditate on drugs either. Even on opiates or benzos.

That's just my experience, anyway.

 

[Christ!]

e. And I started browsing this site at, what, age 15 or 16? And I joined when I was 17. I didn't have a very healthy outlook on drugs at the time

Sounds familiar I was basically a kid when I started coming here. Have gotten lots of benefits from bluelight but also picked up unrealistic attitudes towards drugs (unrealistic for me personally anyway)

Sounds like you're at the stage of making real progress and sticking with it Noz. Thinking comes across as clear and it seems like you know yourself. Really like that drawing, you've got talent and hobbies/art that take you out of your head helps so much with recovery.

Will be very careful about medications suggested by the Doctor. I'm at the stage where I need to have a good look back and come to terms with what I've done to myself/people around me - and develop some healthier strategies for life in general. I'm too good at pretending everything is OK.

 

[infectedmushroom]

The last week has been interesting, to say the least. I'll try be brief.

Last Saturday at 3pm I took my "last dose" of codeine at 600mg. That night I went out and had a couple (to many) drinks with friends. I thought being hungover might be a hard way to start CT, but I was wrong - the Sunday breezed by and I felt just fine. The next few days with the aid of loperamide didn't seem difficult either. They went by surprisingly quickly.

Yesterday however, (six days into CT,) at about 5am I woke up in sheer panic and despair. I had no capacity for reasoning. I went straight to the chemist which opens earliest at 7am and by 730 was on a 24 box of pan extra. What'd I do when that started wearing off 4-5 hours later? Buy another box and get on it again.

Gradually through the day I began to feel shittier and shittier even though I was high. I developed a bad fever. I didnt get any codeine today though. I'm determined to ride this out despite the lapse yesterday. The panic and craving hit me so hard after a relatively painless week I just couldn't cope. To be perfectly honest, I also abused dexamphetamine over two nights during the week so I obviously wasn't taking the CT and recovery seriously enough.

But I am now, and I've had enough. I was basically over the hump until I fcked up. I'm realising this road is more than JUST detoxing then waiting till I stop feeling miserable but about a whole lifestyle overhaul.

I said I wanted to keep this short but ended up ranting a bit. I'm glad there's a forum like this to do so.

 

[footscrazy]

I'm realising this road is more than JUST detoxing then waiting till I stop feeling miserable but about a whole lifestyle overhaul.

I relate to that a lot. I think it's easy, when you've been abusing drugs for awhile, to start thinking that all your problems are due to drugs and that when you stop, everything wrong with your life will suddenly improve, but IME, it doesn't happen like that. For one thing, it takes a long time (probably longer than any of us want to think about) to get back to baseline, and even then, we started using drugs for a reason and those reasons remain.

I kicked smack over the long weekend last weekend and I felt physically fine at work on Tuesday, but it just felt like nothing, like nothing much had really changed. I still have to wake up at 6.30 every morning and go to work, except now I don't have any gear to look forward to when I open my eyes.

Someone said to me recently, and I try to keep this in mind - it's about the long term goal. It's so easy, especially with opiates, for your world to contract to today and the next few days - do I have enough to get me through today, and will I be sick tomorrow. Sometimes it helps for me to think long term - in the long term, this day of sickness means nothing, but in the long term, scoring to fix it just puts it off for another day. That, and not having empathy with your future self. I mean, we discount the suffering we might experience later because (IME) I don't give a shit about my future self, really - whether my actions today put myself in a world of shit a day or so from now - I think my future self can deal with it then, it's not my problem now. So just trying to have more empathy for myself, in the future, as well as now. It's hard for an addict when you're thinking is so focused on short term gratification.

Anyway, you've done a good job with your kick - and any lapse is still valuable if you can get something out of it. Maybe it could help to write down how crap you felt during the lapse, too - I've been trying to do that, to remind myself that this magical high I have built in my mind is really just an illusion, it's not reality. Good luck.

 

[spacejunk]

I relate to that a lot. I think it's easy, when you've been abusing drugs for awhile, to start thinking that all your problems are due to drugs and that when you stop, everything wrong with your life will suddenly improve, but IME, it doesn't happen like that. For one thing, it takes a long time (probably longer than any of us want to think about) to get back to baseline, and even then, we started using drugs for a reason and those reasons remain.

As usual - so very, very true.
It's a long hard road...and things don't generally get better once you've detoxed (one of the most frustrating parts, to my mind) - but just try to remember why you are putting yourself through this to start with.
Write it down (and stick it somewhere prominent) if it helps.

Being an addict is a pretty huge drag for so many reasons.

But distractions help. Exercise, hobbies, a change of scene - whatever it takes.

All the best guys.

 

[Halif]

but I was wrong - the Sunday breezed by and I felt just fine. The next few days with the aid of loperamide didn't seem difficult either. They went by surprisingly quickly.

Yesterday however, (six days into CT,) at about 5am I woke up in sheer panic and despair.

Look, this may be unrelated and I don't want to get into speculation too much, but that is exactly my experience of using loperamide during WDs. Despite what you read about lope having a 14 hour half life (where'd you read that, by the way), my experience after using lope is that after a few hours of dosing my WD symptoms lessened considerably. Then, to my utter amazement, the next day I felt better still - even good!

Then, two days after that I started to get exaggerated WD effects that were different in quality to the ones I know well. I'm far too familiar with WDs from H, codeine, PST, opium, and oxy. The WDs I was getting were different from these and were extremely nasty.

Repeated "experiements" have produced the same thing and before I knew it, I was dosing lope everyday whether I was taper or detoxing or just using. I found that using on top of lope I got really powerful highs, the likes of which I've not had for 24 months at least.

All I could do was put the two together. I found that I needed to taper off lope very, very slowly to avoid that sudden horrible, almost benzo rebound-like panic feeling.

I have now ceased lope entirely and I don't have any of those effects anymore (either the relief of WDs or the extreme rebound WDs).

Has anyone else had experience like this? Are there any people out there who seem to be extremely sensitive to lope effects? I'm starting to wonder about lope... do some people have a deficiency of some enzyme, or a super productive enzyme (sorry for the vague language, I don't really understand pharmacokientics well) which causes lope to have super efficiency?

If I had to guess based on purely my own subjective experience, lope seems to have an onset time of many hours (like 10 or more to reach peak action) and then a duration of effect around 48 hours in length? Then an acute withdrawal effect lasting around 70 hours?

I know these numbers sound nuts, but this is my experience after dozens of trials (both one-off dosing and multiple consecutive day dosing) of dosing lope at amounts lower than most people mention in the lope megathread.

 

[catching fish]

Hey guys, you may remember me from such posts as Opiate Dextox 1 through to about 20. Anyway I've kicked opiates. Probably (definitely) still have some PAWS going on but apart from that I'm fine without the dope.

I thought I would rejoin this thread and keep a rough log of my benzo detox. I've had a bit of a long binge with clonazepam. 4-6 mg every day for the last month. I'm about to stop cold turkey. A lot of people recommended against this and suggested a fast taper, but the bottom line is that I don't have the time, and don't want to extend the use of this shit. I've just had my last 2 mg pill so tomorrow I'll will be day 1. I don't expect to feel too awful for a couple or a few days.

I'm really hoping this won't be as bad as I'm expecting. I don't have much on during the next week or two so I thought it would be good timing. I'm expecting to feel shit but I'm hoping that due to the reasonably short duration of my use (compared to most benzo detox journeys) the peak of the shitness doesn't last too long and I will be at a less risk of the much more serious shit like seizures.

I'll keep you guys posted for anyone who gives a shit. I'm also 3 weeks into my Zoloft treatment so hopefully that will take the edge off.

Peace. Feel free to post any advice or comments, whether you are reassuring me that it won't be so bad or that I'm in for hell on earth.

I'm trying to get my mind into a good spiritual place, and practice a lot of mindfulness and maybe some meditation techniques to help out.

Cheers,

CF

 

[Nozphexezest]

to start thinking that all your problems are due to drugs and that when you stop, everything wrong with your life will suddenly improve, but IME, it doesn't happen like that. For one thing, it takes a long time (probably longer than any of us want to think about) to get back to baseline, and even then, we started using drugs for a reason and those reasons remain.

Yeah. That's true. But with opiates some people just can't work on those problems, like divorce or depression. At least with sobriety you don't just get the time, but the state of mind, to work on those problems.

A lot of people recommended against this and suggested a fast taper, but the bottom line is that I don't have the time, and don't want to extend the use of this shit. I've just had my last 2 mg pill so tomorrow I'll will be day 1. I don't expect to feel too awful for a couple or a few days.

Be careful. Benzo withdrawal is pretty serious on your health.

Does anybody here use poppy seed tea? I'm wondering if I was really addicted or not. I mean, I know I was addicted. But poppy seeds? Really? I can't shake that thought in the back of my head that it was a big joke. I was using the < NO BRANDS, THANKS > brand poppy seeds, to be specific.

 

[Captain Brewster]

^ pst is no joke mate.

It's VERY addictive. I would treat the addiction as any other opiate/opiod being pharmaceutical or straight from the poppy itself.

 

[catching fish]

Be careful. Benzo withdrawal is pretty serious on your health.

Does anybody here use poppy seed tea? I'm wondering if I was really addicted or not. I mean, I know I was addicted. But poppy seeds? Really? I can't shake that thought in the back of my head that it was a big joke. I was using the < NO BRANDS, THANKS > brand poppy seeds, to be specific.

PST withdrawal can be fucking horrible. It is unpredictable, drawn out, and can generally last longer a fair bit longer than dope withdrawals. It might be a bit more forgiving in terms of the length of time it takes you to build a serious habit, but once you're on that train it is a nightmare to get off.

And thanks for the well wishes. I'm on day one and I'm super lethargic and have no energy. Not sure if it is related because I wouldn't have expected any W/D symptoms to be apparent yet. Going to force myself to get out of bed and eat a carby meal and do a light workout. I have a date-night with my GF tonight.

Peace.

 

[Nozphexezest]

I'm not sure why I even think my addiction is a joke. I've been forced through poppy seed tea withdrawals before when I was locked in a psych ward, and it came with everything. Vomiting, restless legs, aches, spasms, everything. And 3kg/day isn't easy.

It's not like it even matters, anyway. People are addicted to prescription opiates like codeine and they take it as directed.

 

[Halif]

I guess there are factors involved which make people doubt the validity/severity of PST related addiction and withdrawal.

The: "I just can't believe that ......<insert practical concern or doubt here>" can be extremely strong and persistent.

Lots of people simply refuse to believe that a mainstream supermarket would sell anything that could produce a really powerful opiate high. And fair enough. It does sound unlikely.

Then there's the whole "seeds" thing. People (especially those who have never been interested in plants or gardening) often think of seeds as being small, powerless things - or simply a by-product of the real event; the plant itself.

But think about what PST is and then consider that it wouldn't be incorrect to compare it to using morphine. It IS using morhpine. Plus a bunch of other alkaloids.

PST just means taking a large enough quantity of seeds and literally washing the minute traces of opium poppy latex (and dirt) off the outer seed.

After washing and filtering, you're drinking a weak form of opium. When more seeds are used it's no longer weak, it's rather a not terribly pure form of opium. That still means consuming morhphine.

So once it's broken down in that way, the idea of PST being ineffective or "all in one's" head as about the same as saying morphine is ineffective or just placebo.. and I doubt many people would attempt to argue for that.