Dreams

[QUARE]

Im not sure if its the right place to post this so move it if not.

I get really anxious sometime because of certain dream or rather nightmares I get and there signification.

Last night, there this dream I get for the second time where Im kind of covered with dark matter and I try to escape Im moving around and I cant talk or shout its night and nobody is anywhere Im in the basement of the house where my room is eventually I reach the floor still trying to remove the dark matter from my face and after a while I woke up terrified by wth is that supose to mean. This is the second time I get this dream in a while.

Other time where I get kill by my mom or my dad those really disturbed me because I know my parents loves me but why do they kill me in a dream or try to because I usually wake up before dying.

Sometime I experience sleep paralysis, this is also very scary.

I cant recall other dream at the moment but im wondering about signification of those for now.

 

[Maya]

This is so coincidental OP, I had a dream last night about meeting someone in a different country. This is what happened in my dream:

So I finally meet this guy who I had been chatting with for ages. I was really happy when I met him and he introduced me to his family. It was weird because he has told me that his father had passed away and that he wasn't or has never met any of his half sisters or half brothers. We had dinner and then after dinner, his entire family has asked me to join them to go to church. This was another weird thing because as far as I know, he was never religious and never went to church, but I just agreed because I did not want to be rude so I told them "well okay only if it's a short time."

Upon arriving at the church, I immediately had an eery feeling, this feeling that something was wrong, as we were going in the church, I noticed the symbol that it wasn't a regular church... It felt like they were a cult. I wanted to run but his family positioned themselves so that I couldn't get away so I just pretended that I was praying and that I was willing to be converted.

After the church gathering, as soon as me and this guy went in his car, I kicked him out of the car and I drove as fast as I can but for some reason, they had demonic powers and the car was slowing down so I jumped out of the car, screaming for help but no one could understand me. At last, one guy has told me he could help me but only if I went back to his family, pretend that I want to be converted, gather them in a secluded place and kill all of them. I was more terrified and I kept yelling at him no and I kept crying and I ran away again. As I was running away from him, I saw the guy running towards me. For some reason, I was holding a knife in my hand and I hid it from him, I stopped and as soon as he got closer he said "there you are I had been looking all over for you." When he got closer and closer I stabbed him four times and I wake up.

This gave me an instant anxiety attack this morning, so OP i can definitely relate to how you are feeling. I also get sleep paralysis from time to time but I got used to it so it is not as big of a deal as when I was younger.

What I believe is that dreams are related to what we had experienced, from days earlier like something we had watched or something that we had been thinking about. This is just my opinion but I can definitely assure this because I was watching something that was related to cults, world wars and secret organizations for days now.

I think it is best to move this thread to Philosophy and Spirituality as I think it is best suited for this forum. Mods pardon me if this is the wrong forum but if I recall correctly there is a thread about dreams so feel free to merge if need be.

 

[Lost Ego]

I believe dreaming is when your brain irrationally sorts through your memories for long-term storage. the dreams you experience are arbitrary and signify nothing more than that your brain consciously or unconsciously placed significance on the idea/memory.

 

[Foreigner]

What dreams "are" doesn't really matter, you can interact with them. There's a connection between the waking world and the dream world, which is something that Carl Jung touched on in his work with the Senoi people as well as with the surviving materials from the Mayan civilization.

Best thing you can do is keep a dream journal, which includes a dictionary of your own dream symbols. If you keep a journal of your day to day world, and a dream symbol dictionary, you will start to notice patterns between waking world events and dream world events. For instance, if I dream of bears or dark forests, it means I'm in need of some kind of healing; if I dream of zombies or hordes, I'm about to get some kind of infection; if I dream intense battles with a nemesis, it means I am either being too self-critical or there is a highly critical person in my life who I am not defending against. Your dream symbols will be personal to you, always.

You can also engage with your dreams by writing them down. Once written, you can re-write them with different endings or plot twists so that when you have the dream again your subconscious will already be ingrained with your editions. For instance, recurring nightmares can have supportive aspects added to aid you in confronting the source of fear. Even if you never have that dream again, re-writing it helps to integrate it in a way that is useful to you.

What we call sleep paralysis is regarded in many dream-working cultures as a precursor to entering our non-material world. The western world has trouble grasping the ancient concept that our consciousness can detach and move freely on its own. In cultures like the Senoi, sleep paralysis is viewed as an out of body experience, you just haven't stepped outside of your body yet. Next time it happens, don't think about trying to move, just think about where you'd like to go (i.e. my living room, beside my bed, etc.). It takes practice, but you can use your dream journal to ingrain recognition of this state and instruction on what to do while in it.

The Maya and the Senoi saw no distinction between waking consciousness and sleep consciousness. They regarded it as all one consciousness. Therefore, what you do while awake affects the dream time, and vice versa. At its deepest level of meaning, this entire existence is a dream. Therefore, you can do things like look at the palms of your hands routinely throughout the day to confirm that they have lines on them, and therefore confirm you are awake. Eventually, this will become such a habit that you'll start doing it in your sleep to verify your state of consciousness. Once you realize you're in the dream, it'll be the first step to the lucid state and, if desired, out of body experiences.

You can read more in: The Jungian-Senoi Dreamwork Manual. It's out of print but there's used copies floating around. It's a shame that the European Christians completely obliterated the Mayan works because they were more advanced than we will ever understand. The few surviving books have yielded techniques more advanced than our modern psychology.

 

[Shrooms00087]

If you analyze your dream, you are analyzing yourself. This is because dreams are useless and you give meaning to the dream, and whatever meaning you give is your own analysis --of whatever. You analyzing your dream would be an unconscious process through which you would just end up investigating yourself. Here's a Christian example for Foreigner, God acts as the unconscious process, the mediator, of morals and meaning while still being subject to the subject; or if you're proper, I am the subject of God.

 

[Mysterie]

this is my fav youtube video on dreams, really interesting and the guy is a great talker

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVATrRTbLbw‎[/video]

 

[Foreigner]

If you analyze your dream, you are analyzing yourself.

Not necessarily. "Self" is a distinct and limited process within consciousness, but is not its totality. Jung describes this in great detail. Self-concept may or may not be present in dreams, or it presents in different forms.

This is because dreams are useless and you give meaning to the dream, and whatever meaning you give is your own analysis --of whatever. You analyzing your dream would be an unconscious process through which you would just end up investigating yourself.

No... you don't give meanings to dreams, you simply look for empirical patterns and correlate. It's not necessarily a linear process and in fact most times it's not.

Even so, I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that investigating yourself is useless.

Here's a Christian example for Foreigner, God acts as the unconscious process, the mediator, of morals and meaning while still being subject to the subject; or if you're proper, I am the subject of God.

Still not getting it. Could you please elaborate?

 

[Shrooms00087]

I'll elaborate on "dream" and maybe it'll clear up some confusion.

Dreaming coming from sleep is useless. Jumbled memories, or if you will unconscious data. Useless. If you were to analyse useless data, you would be daydreaming, fictionalizing, so forth. Because the useless data would for simple purposes serve as art or something similar. For example I just woke from a dream when I was asleep. When I was asleep I made a Mandala...With this Mandala I will find whatever I want to find as it will give meaning to itself through me.

So the unconscious process is the act of giving* meaning behind the Mandala.

So for the Christian example: God is nothing (or for reference, useless data), but He is subject to our conception of Him (with various books, folklore, and rules). When we think "If I do this will God do this" THAT (daydream, fictionalization, etc) is the unconscious process through which God/nothing operates.



*Also I never came to the conclusion investigating yourself is useless. I just simply said that IS what you would be doing.

 

[Shrooms00087]

I found an even better way of describing the Christian example.

God's function enables us to Dream (fictionalization, conceptualize, etc) about a higher authority, as well as being an all encompassing metaphor. Our Dream of God makes us submissive to the Dream, while still being the person who is conceptualizing the Dream. This is why Jung when developing the twelve steps thought "finding a higher power than yourself" was so important. Because you Dream the very thing you want to achieve. This is why the 12 step program is so wishy washy, works on some but I would say not most.

Also interestingly enough I was listening to an Alan Watts lecture and he was talking about Jung having a problem integrating Eastern thought into Western society. 'If you were in, say, India and you declared yourself a God, no one would bat an eye but if you did that in a Western society --why they'd lock you up'.

 

[Foreigner]

Dreaming coming from sleep is useless. Jumbled memories, or if you will unconscious data. Useless. If you were to analyse useless data, you would be daydreaming, fictionalizing, so forth.

It wasn't useless to me, and to many people. It's only useless when you are subjected to the experience without any interactive awareness. I'm at the point now where I can tell the difference between a dream that is merely randomized data from my day, and a vivid, lucid experience that my unconscious is conveying to me. But... maybe for you, dreams are meaningless and thus you never have a meaningful dream. I don't know.

Because the useless data would for simple purposes serve as art or something similar. For example I just woke from a dream when I was asleep. When I was asleep I made a Mandala...With this Mandala I will find whatever I want to find as it will give meaning to itself through me.

Intention does matter. If you intend that dreams are useless then they always will be. If you intend to work with your subconscious, then your dreams will probably start talking to you.

'Want' doesn't have to be part of the equation though, and it usually isn't. You're assuming that there is a willful pursuit of a certain construct, instead of an earnest observation of one. Many people who seek dream work have had dreams inflicted upon them for years without any desire behind it. You're implying there can no objectivity with the work, which is simply untrue based on the wealth of prior recorded experiences.

Whether you identify with the work as your personal unconscious or God doesn't matter. They're just conceptualizations for the sake of the work. How you relate to the work affects how the dreamtime plays out. If you tend to live your life in victimhood, then you will be the same in your dreams; if your life is full of stress and unresolved conflict, then your dreams will attempt to rectify that with conflicting imagery. There's no real distinction between being awake and being asleep. If you think dreams are meaningless then some part of you must treat conscious life as meaningless also.

 

[Shrooms00087]

Useless from an abstract point of few. It is fundamentally flawed except when you give meaning to it. You giving meaning to it, is, your unconscious. However dreams from sleep differ from daydreams, which is ironically what you are doing when you interpret your dreams. You daydream about your dream. That act in itself is not useless and I did not intend to give it that meaning. However sleep being what it is, not conscious, useless.

Intention does matter. If you intend that dreams are useless then they always will be. If you intend to work with your subconscious, then your dreams will probably start talking to you.

We agree then. Except differ on terminology. I am with Freud here, no such thing as a subconscious, unconscious. Instead of saying 'dreams will start talking to you' I'd say 'you start talking with your dreams'.

'Want' doesn't have to be part of the equation though, and it usually isn't. You're assuming that there is a willful pursuit of a certain construct, instead of an earnest observation of one. Many people who seek dream work have had dreams inflicted upon them for years without any desire behind it. You're implying there can no objectivity with the work, which is simply untrue based on the wealth of prior recorded experiences.

Sorry again here we agree and I failed to explain. Objectivity is the act of 'talking with your dreams' which is daydreaming. The basis of hypnosis is the act of placebo with directional input into daydreaming, or 'how to talk to your dreams'.

Whether you identify with the work as your personal unconscious or God doesn't matter. They're just conceptualizations for the sake of the work. How you relate to the work affects how the dreamtime plays out. If you tend to live your life in victimhood, then you will be the same in your dreams; if your life is full of stress and unresolved conflict, then your dreams will attempt to rectify that with conflicting imagery. There's no real distinction between being awake and being asleep. If you think dreams are meaningless then some part of you must treat conscious life as meaningless also.

We agree again

I was just giving a contrast to the Mayan outlooks on Dreaming.

 

[Foreigner]

Useless from an abstract point of few. It is fundamentally flawed except when you give meaning to it. You giving meaning to it, is, your unconscious.

The same is true of anything. At the deepest level, nothing in life has inherent meaning aside from your projection. The same goes for therapy. Why do therapy when it's just inserting your meaning onto things that are meaningless? Oh, I don't know, maybe because it helps to create new and useful constructs for living?

Saying that the conscious world has meaning and the unconscious does not is an unnecessary dichotomy. Since it's all one consciousness (which you agree with below), then how can one phase of that consciousness have all the value while the rest has basically nothing? Experientially, I find all states of consciousness revealing as long as I can remember what happened.

We agree then. Except differ on terminology. I am with Freud here, no such thing as a subconscious, unconscious. Instead of saying 'dreams will start talking to you' I'd say 'you start talking with your dreams'.

Why quibble over semantics of who/what is doing the talking? At the end of the day it's just present awareness having an experience. Doesn't matter where it comes from. It's all part of the movie.

Sorry again here we agree and I failed to explain. Objectivity is the act of 'talking with your dreams' which is daydreaming. The basis of hypnosis is the act of placebo with directional input into daydreaming, or 'how to talk to your dreams'.

I think our disagreements are mainly linguistic. Whether a person relates to a dream as something that is happening to them or something they are making happen is a matter of heuristics and is not really important to the end goal of dream work. It's your creation, do what you want with it.

 

[Shrooms00087]

Saying that the conscious world has meaning and the unconscious does not is an unnecessary dichotomy. Since it's all one consciousness (which you agree with below), then how can one phase of that consciousness have all the value while the rest has basically nothing? Experientially, I find all states of consciousness revealing as long as I can remember what happened.

I did not say the unconscious was an unnecessary dichotomy in fact I think they complement each other. The value in sleep isn't the dream per se, the value is the person/patient who "Creates new and useful constructs for living."

 

[Foreigner]

^ The dream is you. The dream is the person and the person is the dream. There's no separation. There can be no world, whether conscious or unconscious, without mind. Saying that the dream has no value but the person has value is not acknowledging that the dream indicates the nature of the person.

Artwork is interpretive and its value comes from the observer, but without the artwork there is no process to be triggered at all. No relationship or means of facilitating the connection of ideas. Dreams are your internally generated "artwork" onto which you facilitate inward connections. Yes, it's subjective, and yes, it's your own construct... but the dream is valuable as the medium for doing so because it generates imagery about you in a multitude of unrestricted forms which you would not be able to explore while awake.

 

[Shrooms00087]

^ The dream is you. The dream is the person and the person is the dream. There's no separation. There can be no world, whether conscious or unconscious, without mind. Saying that the dream has no value but the person has value is not acknowledging that the dream indicates the nature of the person.

We agree but I still think you are using Dream as that which happens when you are asleep and I am using it as fantasy/daydreaming. Your dreaming coming from sleep when you go to bed shows you nothing about your nature unless you were categorizing memories. It would be much more understanding to find the inner nature while examining the person who is daydreaming, this is Dreaming in the psychoanalytic sense. This kind of Dream makes free association possible. Not the dream from sleep when you go to bed. I mean I can meet you in the middle and say that, yes, dreams from sleep when you go to bed have meaning *after the conscious mind has analyzed it* otherwise it would just be another dream that is forgotten upon awakening.

Artwork is interpretive and its value comes from the observer, but without the artwork there is no process to be triggered at all. No relationship or means of facilitating the connection of ideas. Dreams are your internally generated "artwork" onto which you facilitate inward connections. Yes, it's subjective, and yes, it's your own construct... but the dream is valuable as the medium for doing so because it generates imagery about you in a multitude of unrestricted forms which you would not be able to explore while awake.

The dream from sleep may as well be a blank canvas you're right. But that's why its characteristics are blankness. Which is to say that no dreams from sleep are internally generated artwork because there is no artist behind the brush, that comes after. What comes after is real Dream from sleep and that is daydreaming/fictionalization/free association.

We are both correct but I think highly different views on the term Dream than that which just comes from sleep. Do forgive me if I get annoying. I am one of those people who would pay for a Monty Python argument.

 

[exists]

Your dream symbols will be personal to you, always.

Very, very true. Anyone who wishes to uncover the meaning of their dreams should seriously consider your statement.

People will often try to interpret their dreams (or the dreams of others) using those big lists of symbols & meanings. But personal experiences give special meaning to certain things. You might have a completely different association with a particular subject than somebody else, due to your unique experience(s) with it.

I've approached dream interpretation this way so many times that I feel confident it its usefulness. One time, a dream of mine actually predicted a friend's violent behavior the day before it occurred. Unfortunately, I failed to interpret the dream in time (didn't try hard enough), although the dream did prepare me in ways I did not consciously choose. It's amazing when you can see how the subconscious mind dredges up facts to alert you to something. It shows me that dreams aren't just random and meaningless.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Dreams are a collection of data the brain has processed during our waking hours and is simply an information dump that occurs during REM stage of sleep. You could argue doing a crap load of dissociatives produce a dream like state while conscious. If you want to find meaning in it the meaning will be related to the events occurring in your life and daily existence. Classic example the naughty sex dream about some attractive girl/guy you have a secret infatuation with.

 

[What 23]

That's oversimplifying it.

I've had many dreams that mirrored beforehand what would happen in the following day, and beyond, in various forms, very precise. Of course many might try to say I'm shoehorning, or associating some way in error. But it has been rather obvious when I've noticed.

If dreams are simply "information dumps", which some might be accepted as in contrast with things, but not all, but if they are, then so is everything... but there's still more to it.

 

[rickolasnice]

Looking for meanings in dreams is pointless.. They generally don't mean anything that would come as a surprise or new, conscious information to the dreamer.

Dreaming is a bit like getting a load of memories, more from recent times and times of high emotion and less from distant past and mundane experiences.. These can come in the form of anything from a small scene from your drive to work (or even the thoughts revolving having to leave for work, etc) to the anxiety and upset that an argument with a loved one made us feel (without it necessarily linking to the loved one or even an argument) to a childhood house to the colour of a shop wall (that you didn't once consciously think about) to a snippet from something you saw on Tv (or ineed; ever), random thoughts (such as the ones you have while day dreaming, with the potential to be even stranger than usual to the point of them not making sense), every word in your vocabulary and every emotion you are capable of then putting them through the wash, pulling out the bits and pieces one by one (two by two, bunch by bunch, whatever) and filling in the gaps with your imagination so that it tells some kind of story.

 

[What 23]

What is meaning?