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Harm Reduction Mixing Kratom with Opioids

QUARE

QUARE

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Messages
668
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Studying research chemicals
Lately Ive been caught into a precipitate acute withdrawal while I wasnt supose to I was really wondering what was going on, I was taking AH-7921 for a while but I was tapering on a long period and I was still taking the AH-7921 so I wasnt supose to get so much symptoms. I though about a it could be a gastroenteritis first. Then I though meaby the I wasnt able to stomach Kratom because AH-7921 put a lot of stress on stomach and HGT.

Today I got a flash about the kratom alkaloid list I found about 1 year ago. Kratom contain
Corynantheidine: μ -opioid antagonist, also found in Yohimbe. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.
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Source: http://www.kratom.net/content.php?4...-Kratom-and-their-known-or-potential-activity

So Kratom have mixed angonist/antagonist µ-activity. Taking kratom while you are taking a full µ-agonist will cause precipitate acute withdrawal symptoms just like if you were taking Suboxone while you are still taking any full µ-agonist.
 
There is a very small amount of antagonist in Kratom and it doesn't typically have a high enough affinity to the receptors to cause PWD.
 
The amount of corynanthedine in kratom is not enough to explain the effects given that mitragynine has a higher affinity for opioid receptors. So the antagonists won't even bind.

Taking kratom while you are taking a full µ-agonist will cause precipitate acute withdrawal symptoms just like if you were taking Suboxone while you are still taking any full µ-agonist.
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This goes against lots of experiences that suggest otherwise, esp. the fact that kratom synergizes with other opioids for most people.

Maybe the AH7291, which has a long half life, has finally worn off and you are feeling the worst of the withdrawals.
 
QUARE said:
Its obvious for me that IT IS because everything started exactly the day after I took the kratom.
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No need to get all bent out of shape bud. TYPICALLY this is not the case just as Flaga121 stated. Obviously individual biochemistry comes into play here.
 
Might be unique to the AH, because in other cases with Kratom + Opiates this (seemingly) does not occur with any regularity.

As Sekio said, if the Kratom is to blame I still have a hard time believing it could be the tiny amount of low affinity antagonist in the leaf.
 
I've mixed kratom with opiates too many times to count, never have I precipitated any sort of withdrawal. However, contrary to what Sekio states I find the combo of the two to be less than ideal. Also, there are a few reports of people also claiming the combo between the two is anything but synergistic and I even remember reading a thread where someone claimed to take an opioid (I believe it was hydrocodone) with kratom and entered a half-way withdrawal state... I'll be back, with quotes *in your best terminator voice*

Hi all! This is my first post. Swim has been searching for an answer on this particular subject due to Swims experience in this area. Swim found one site that reflected Swims take. Kratom cancels or negates the effects of hydrocodone. Swim has been a user of kratom for about 3 years now. Swims usage for the last year and a half has been about an ounce of powdered bali per day. On occasion Swim obtains hydrocodone, which, Swim used to enjoy greatly. But it doesn't mix well with kratom, according to Swim. When Swim takes hydrocodone it is usually in combination with kratom. Kratom first then hydrocodone about an hour later when the kratom is kicking in. The idea being to achieve greater effect by mixing the two supposedly similar substances. When taken with the kratom, sometimes Swim feels nothing of the hydrocodone, though sometimes, Swim reports similar feelings to withdrawal after taking the hydrocodone. Weird skin crawling, restless legs, irritability, strong emotional reactions, not at all what you would expect of two drugs that supposedly potentiate each other. Swim has experienced the same feelingswhen taking kratom with codeine. Has anyone else had this experience. Swim found only one site on the whole internet that said anything about this. According to everyone else kratom and other opiates potentiate well. Feedback?
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When it comes to my pet fish, he did not like the combination of the 2. He took 20 mg's of oxycodone about 4 hours after taking 5 g's of kratom. It did not make him feel bad, it just seemed like a waste of the percocets since the kratom seemed to "cancel out" many of the effects of the oxycodone. So, in my opinion, from a health perspective, I'd say it won't kill you, but it would be a waste of the great euphoria only acheivable from oxycodone, without kratom.
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Both quotes taken from this thread ( http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9715 ).

I had a bad experience with codeine and kratom they blocked each other out and gave me a toxic like feeling in my head.
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^^interesting you'd say that, since I was wondering. I take tramadol daily and have had mixed effects from kratom. When I would take tramadol the same day as heroin I would notice some seriously diminished effects from the h so i was wondering if this was why sometimes i felt the kratom and sometimes i didn't. But if it works for you to have both it just may be my funky metabolism
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I concur with the notion Kratom can block or diminish the effects of poppy tea or hydro . . . and vice versa. If that makes sense. I've taken my usual dose of 4 grams, extract/resin Kratom and then followed up with 2 cups of poopy tea and felt very light effects. It just wasn't worth it, as I felt more tired and a bit ill combining the two. Just my experience though . . . others may expereince better results
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These quotes were taken from this thread ( http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?990-Kratom-with-opiates ).
Some seem to be able to take the combination with no problems while some seem to experience a sort of blocking effect. While I've never experienced a significant blocking effect, the combo between opioids and kratom are very much a 1+1=2 kinda deal for me, maybe even 1+1=1.5. Perhaps the antagonist plays a bigger role than we think?

Btw there's definately more complaints, I think we get the point though...
 
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That's strange because I have mixed the 2 plenty of times and found it to be synergistic... but everyone is different which can play a big part. Can you think of anything else that might have been changed around the same time which could have caused precipitated withdrawals?

Also, it could just be a crappy batch of Kratom. I don't know anything about AH-7921.
 
Thank you CaptainKratom, this make me feel less alone with my symptoms. In fact im actually tappering from a 3½ month use of AH-7921 and everything was fine my taper was done correctly enough to get no symptoms at all. I was taking about 3 to 4 time less the intial dose I was taking. I was near the end of my tapper about 2 weeks of supplies left to taper and when I took Kratom I got precipitate withdrawal, symptoms was VERY severe diarrhea (pooping water), nausea and acidic reflux that lead to vomiting and bad mental condition. Though I didnt got the horrible physical symptoms like sweating, chills, cold and hot flash, twitchs, convulsion that I was getting when I quit cold turkey last time.

My stomach is still in bad condition, probably cause Im really near running out of AH-7921 and my dose are very small and unfrequant but when I stopped taking Kratom most symptoms was gone. Today diarrhea was so severe that I saw my Wellbutrin pill in the toilet after pooping. What goes in my stomach goes is directly deportee to the other side. And Loperamide doesnt work probably cause I cant absorb it due to that severe diarrhea.

And about Kratom im pretty sure we dont know yet all the alkaloids present in this plant. Theres probably more antagonist than we think.
 
@whiteroom67 AH-7921 is toxic and cause damage to stomach and bowel, I really dont recomend it or at least not on a long period. Not mentioning that it cause intense dryness to body fluid, dry eyes, dry mouth, dry nose, dry skin and skin eruption and irritation. Blood in stool. Really bad acid reaction in the stomach when quitting.
 
Well, knowing this completely turned me off of ever wanting to try AH-7921, was kinda interested for a second just to try it... but I never found any bad reaction either from having Kratom with other opitates(oxy was the only one I tryed with it) seemed to just not make me need as much oxy, very speedy mix for me...
 
It could be as simple as the adrenergic effects from the kratom throwing your body off. Mitragynine can be quite stimulating to people who use mainly sedative opioids, so much so that it can make you sick.
 
^ Do you have any clues as to why kratom would cause a blocking effect when mixed with other opioids for some people sekio? Is it possible for two mu agonists to compete each other?
 
Yes, but mitragynine & the other alkaloids do not bind very strongly in comparsion to stuff like morphine and oxycodone. Oxycodone would bind and kick the mitragynine right off. EVen something like codeine would.

I think it's the secondary stimulating effects of the kratom. It's not a 100% pure opioid, it also causes your body to release norepinephrine and adrenaline, like yohimbe does. Think about someone who regularly takes oxycodone, suddenly taking 400mg caffeine with their oxy dose. It's likely they would feel like they're in withdrawals (twitching, shaking, watery shits) even though they're not withdrawing.
 
Well the thing is I've experienced this to a minor extent as well and I'm very used to kratoms stimulant effects, no precip wihdrawal but a definate but minor reduction in effects. Also it seems like many of these people making these claims (there's quite a bit) have taken kratom before so they should know what to expect, in theory the combo would be even less stimulating than kratom alone depending on the opiate. The op's experience is the most extreme I've read of though so I'm guessing the AH-7921 is a big contributor. Isn't AH a mixed agonist/antagonist? Don't know if that even makes a difference though really.
 
No, AH-7921 is believed to be a mu-agonist but im pretty damn sure it as kappa affinity since the drug is dissociative at high dose. But the fack that im actually tapering from AH-7921 probably made the kratom/opioid effect worst. I sometime take Monsters energy while on AH-7921 so the stimulating effect would not be to blame I think.
 
The stimulating effects from caffeine are way different than the pure adrenergic stimulation from mitragynbine/yohimbine.
 
I honestly don't believe these claims are just people sensitive or intolerant to the stimulant alkaloids. Maybe it has to do with timing or something as some people find kratom to compliment opioids while others, me included, find them very un-synergistic and even a couple claims that they entered a half-withdrawal state... there's something fishy going on and as quare said we don't even know all the alkaloids likely, not that this means there's another antagonist but I'm sure there's something going on we just don't understand yet. Do we know the activity of coryantheidine and what a standard dose of kratom contains?
 
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