Addiction

[mydrugbuddy]

I'm not sure about it either. It seems that some people can sustain stimulant addiction better than others, so some people can eat and sleep well enough on these things so that it does become sustainable. IME i physically cannot and pretty soon begin to feel awful so i have never become physically addicted to any stimulant.

 

[ColtDan]

The negative effects of too frequent use of Mephedrone can be so severe that it can really quickly become unsustainable and self limiting.

I found that, for me once or twice a week maximum, and that was too much after awhile. But i still carried on

 

[Si Dread]

I rarely did more than that & also got myself into trouble. Pernicious shit, Meph.

I agree that stimulants such as coke & meth are as likely to bring addiction as opiates or benzos, but it might prove harder to maintain bad habits for a stim head, I dunno... It was certainly pretty difficult for me, thank God.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

surely you have to be continuing to enjoy a drug to remain addicted to it?

Not at all. Tobacco. Heroin. Alcohol. You can just be fulfilling a dependence without enjoying the drug. You may also be enjoying certain rituals associated with the drug use rather than the drug itself. Enjoyment is no pre-requisite for addiction. Some sex addicts may even be repulsed by their behaviour but still see a necessity for it.

 

[Shambles]

surely you have to be continuing to enjoy a drug to remain addicted to it?

Not at all. When I quit heroin it had been literally years since I last actually enjoyed it - or even really felt it. Was using purely to avoid what happens when you stop. That and the eternal addict optimism that next time will be the one that reminds you of what you initially fell for but can barely remember by this stage.

What makes one person continue to use a drug, despite the negative effects, & another call it a day at that point?

Addiction. The bit in bold is virtually the very definition of addiction. If negative effects put you off anything short of a fairly lengthy time of horridness it was likely more of a fling - an extended binge - than a serious addiction, I'd say. Have you not seen the state of so many longterm alcoholics or heroin addicts or meth fiends or crackheads or... it ain't pleasant and in a great many instances there isn't even pleasure left in the substance itself and hasn't been for a long time. All pleasantries are long gone, all that remains is the addiction - and it'll still be an utter bastard to shift.

EDIT: Just spotted the above and would point out that my 'Not at all' was actually entirely unrelated and uninspired by SHM's 'Not at all' due to having not seen the post. It would appear great minds really do think alike.

 

[Si Dread]

Nah it's so not too late! You're good buddy, stick with it!

EDIT: Just spotted the above and would point out that my 'Not at all' was actually entirely unrelated and uninspired by SHM's 'Not at all' due to having not seen the post. It would appear great minds really do think alike.

Hahaha indeed they do!

So basically, are we saying that the person who stops using a drug because of it's negative effects is, per se, not an addict?

Is there a difference between the maintainance of a drug habit despite the lack of pleasurable effects & in spite of the prescence of negative ones, & the maintainance of a drug habit simply so as to avoid the effects of withdrawal?

Is not the maintainance of an addiction to avoid withdrawal the true measure of addiction?

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

The maintenance of an addiction to avoid withdrawal is one measure of addiction for sure. And a pretty strong one, though there are others. But it's a very conscious addiction. And addictions may be unconscious too.

As to 'is there a difference between...', yes, there can be more reasons for addiction than the undesirability of facing withdrawal. The presence of negative effects and lack of pleasurable ones.....pfft, tobacco. Nuff said.

And, to continue in reverse order...if you stop you are by definition not an addict (anymore). Alcoholics may argue with that obviously, but generally speaking. But if you stop because of negative effects, or perceived negative effects, yes you are what the dominant culture regards as logical, sane, non-addicted. But it's a choice either way. Choose life etc. That choice is made on judgements that are not value free. Addiction is not an objective concept, it's heavily influenced by subjective judgements on what particular addictions mean.

 

[Shambles]

Nah it's so not too late! You're good buddy, stick with it!

Never too late and 33 is a very long way from being too late. It's a shame the post this is referencing didn't want to stick around cos it was a damn fine post. I think there are plenty here who would be able to relate rather well to that.

Is there a difference between the maintainance of a drug habit despite the lack of pleasurable effects & in spite of the prescence of negative ones, & the maintainance of a drug habit simply so as to avoid the effects of withdrawal?

Not really. I guess a person in the former situation just knows that bit more of how difficult it is to get out from under and a person in the second situation has that revelation to look forward to.

Is not the maintainance of an addiction to avoid withdrawal the true measure of addiction?

Again, yes that would be an addicted person but the way you phrase it sounds like a person in that situation was perhaps a "functioning addict" or maybe at a stage where not too many things have spun out of control. They would still be addicted though, yes.

I think the difference I was getting at is more as I suggest above - a matter of how far down the addiction rabbit hole a person happens to have gotten themselves. It goes a long way down. And then it goes a lot further down. Is why it really is best to avoid addiction rabbit holes at all costs, or do everything and anything you can to get yourself pointing at daylight as the earliest opportunity. I've yet to find anybody who ever found that pesky White Rabbit down there no matter how far down they've gotten.

 

[Si Dread]

Addiction is not an objective concept, it's heavily influenced by subjective judgements on what particular addictions mean.

It's kinda tricky pinning down a definitive identifying factor at which we an apply the word "Addiction" under those circumstances. Addiction is clearly different for every single person dependent on numerous factors that could include pretty much anything!

Never too late and 33 is a very long way from being too late. It's a shame the post this is referencing didn't want to stick around cos it was a damn fine post. I think there are plenty here who would be able to relate rather well to that.

I am agree, that was a post worth keeping...

 

[Shambles]

I'm not so sure it's really that hard to pin down a definition of addiction. I do think that the word carries a number of connotations which not all addicted people would be comfortable or happy to have attached to themselves - and may well not apply as there is a range over which the broader term 'addiction' would apply. There's also the question over whether or not there is a difference between a dependency and an addiction (I'd think that applies to substances rather than behaviours - I can't really see how a person could be dependent on, say, gambling but not be addicted but I can see the arguments made for, say, a person taking prescribed morphine for chronic pain and a person taking black/grey market morphine for recreation (at least initially) as I do think there is a difference - both are dependent but are both also addicted?).

 

[SandyFrank]

@Shambles and Si Ingwe: I wanted to thank you for your encouragement of the post I previously deleted due to my own concerns of coming across self-indulgent or simply feeling a bit too vulnerable. I appreciate what you both said and if you and, as you said, perhaps others could glean something from it, I will try to recall it as best I can. I started by giving my response to Si's question:

surely you have to be continuing to enjoy a drug to remain addicted to it?
What makes one person continue to use a drug, despite the negative effects, & another call it a day at that point?

Addiction is a very complex phenomenon, and in my own experience, a lot more drew me to and kept me using substances beyond simply enjoyment. Ultimately, I started b/c I had very low self worth, and then the forces of compulsion and self destruction are what bound me. You get drugs that are enjoyable, you get ones that just don't work with your particular chemistry, but if you find that substance that feels like falling in love, pure and enveloping at first, it's easy to be seduced. Then the self loathing starts, and it becomes cyclical. I would hate myself for so many reasons. For being so weak, so easily drawn, even when I was only honestly enjoying about 30 min to 1 hr of my using. That to me was always a bit of magic. I'd transcend my pathetic existence for a fleeting period of time and forget who I was or even the scumbags I'd have to hang out with who I hated just b/c they had the dealer's info. That brief, floaty body rush was so sweet and so much warmer than any love I'd yet experienced at that time, and in my distorted mind, felt so honest and reliable it would bring tears to my eyes. Then, the rest of the evening would devolve into a depressing cycle of chasing a high that we knew was going to be sub par, blowing our paychecks by scamming for money at some sketchy atm at 3am, then scoring freebase coke in the middle of Queens before trying to replicate what we knew we wouldn't experience fully the rest of the night/morning. I hated myself for sitting there and scraping a fucking glass pipe for resin, knowing it would just make my head ache, with the meager hope I'd get lucky and feel artificial bliss for even 5 seconds. I hated seeing my drug buddy go into freak out routine, convinced he'd bought an extra bag when I knew we hadn't, but still help him search the room in a frenzied haze. I hated driving home, lying to my parents or showing up at work on no sleep, eyes still dilated, feeling like a fraud and a disappointment. But most of all I hated myself for hurting and pushing away those who actually gave a damn. I hated having to accept that my parents and friends had seen me have numerous benzo withdrawl seizures when I overdid it coming down. I hated it that my heart stopped at the hospital and my family had to witness that. I hated that I didn't think enough of myself to eat, sleep, stop fucking up my heart so I could barely walk up the stairs without wheezing, eventually almost passing out in a Target. I'm not saying this as self pity. I'm saying it b/c I'm terrified that this weakness still resides in me. If someone put a bag of base in front of me this moment, I wouldn't even give it a second thought. And that makes me a piece of shit. B/c it's been over 5 years, and I have people who I know care about me, and I can't let them down anymore. I can't keep letting that side win that makes me feel weak, unworthy, awkward, weird, worthless. B/c I know I'm not, but the door that blocks that old me isn't always that strong, and lately it's been feeling thinner. So I guess I just wanted to call myself out, as well as explain why I used, despite feeling disgusting, like trash, self sabotaging.

I'm 33 now. I guess your 20s are a selfish time, where mortality, age, the impacts of your actions, etc... feel far away, foreign. But now they are more and more real each day. I am not infallible, invincible. I have been given more chances than I deserve. And anyone reading this who relates on any level, you have been given chances. You're here. I'm here. I can't say more than that, or how I'll be tomorrow, but I feel like shit tonight and I guess it's good to air our ugly sides if it helps explain at least a few aspects of addiction or compulsion. I hope this post was on par with the one I deleted that you liked and I'd be blessed and humbled if someone might be able to get something out of it or at least understand how different addiction is for many of us. Thank you for listening, at the very least. Night all.

 

[Shambles]

... I will try to recall it as best I can.

Wise choice, I'd say. I don't think it's in the least self-indulgent to talk about an addiction - there's always the possibility it could help somebody else avoid making the same decisions or maybe to recognise enough to realise things are only going to go the same way for them too so maybe it is worth trying to get out before it gets to the stage of hearts stopping and collapsing in public places. FWIW, I think that's a rather well-explained summing-up of a situation I can certainly recognise and at least partially relate to (having gotten away from crack just shy of heart stopping but probably not by very much). I think one aspect of addiction many - probably most - don't really appreciate on the way in is how depressingly similar and familiar the stories end up being. Details may vary, of course, but the gist of it - and actually plenty of the detail in many cases - are just the same no matter who you are. Nicely put

 

[One Thousand Words]

It's a whole other ballgame taking a drug often enough to become addicted to it tho shammy. Drinking a bottle of wine a day would be as difficult for me as running a marathon every day. I'm getting on quite a bit now, had quite a few troubles, and I'm certain it's not possible for me to be addicted to anything. Regardless of the fact that if you take the same drug every day it becomes about as much fun as a kick in the stones, mentally I wouldn't have the dedication. Even psychedelics that I love beyond reason I know taking them too much destroys all the pleasure.

I don't believe everyone is vulnerable to addiction. No matter if everyone in my family died tomorrow, the house burned down and I was barred entry to the US, I wouldn't start taking a drug all the time. And I know the argument is "How do you know?" but I'm old enough now to have a definitive answer.

Is there a drug that you can take every day and still find it fun? I've never found one.

I feel the same way. 3 out of four of my grandparents were alcoholics, my father is a drunken gambler and my mother isn't called champagne Chrissy because of her love of pink diamonds. Yet I don't believe I could ever become addicted to a drug. I love getting high, on most types of drugs, but I just don't have that gumption I guess to give everything else up for habit. Boredom is probably a good explanation or perhaps I feel more social responsibility towards those people who rely upon me for their livelihood.

 

[SandyFrank]

Wise choice, I'd say. I don't think it's in the least self-indulgent to talk about an addiction - there's always the possibility it could help somebody else avoid making the same decisions or maybe to recognise enough to realise things are only going to go the same way for them too so maybe it is worth trying to get out before it gets to the stage of hearts stopping and collapsing in public places. FWIW, I think that's a rather well-explained summing-up of a situation I can certainly recognise and at least partially relate to (having gotten away from crack just shy of heart stopping but probably not by very much). I think one aspect of addiction many - probably most - don't really appreciate on the way in is how depressingly similar and familiar the stories end up being. Details may vary, of course, but the gist of it - and actually plenty of the detail in many cases - are just the same no matter who you are. Nicely put

Thank you very much for your supportive words and for being understanding of what I shared, as I have a hard time being open about experiences from such a difficult and shameful time in my life. I think it's easy for stories about using to (often unintentionally) take on a more favorable or at times competitive tone. Not saying I'm some tee-totaler and I don't believe in complete abstinence for myself, but I think there are many facets of addiction that make it such a complex and consuming force in so many lives. Much focus is put on the physical aspects of addiction/dependency, and that is a massive component. I have had a couple friends who have been on methadone for years after deciding to kick heroin and one in particular sees it as just another degrading trap with no easy end in sight. I lost touch and don't know where he stands now. I haven't been in their shoes, but I've witnessed the resentments they've shared and the shame is there the same as it was/is for me and in the cases you mentioned - that universal thread. I decided to repost my experience b/c I Wanted to focus on the emotional components that were so dominant and ultimately so insidious. I know it's not the same as heroin or opiate withdrawals (of which I've undergone lesser varieties, but I know it's not the same as what those I've talked about it have endured or are trapped by the desire to not get dope sick, go through WDs, or sub one addiction for another, and thus remain dependent), but I was filling a void that I was too young to understand at the time that left scars for years, and still the thought of freebase coke makes me salivate. That's what disturbs me so much. I'm not trying to highlight the 'fun' aspects of this phenomenon, I'm trying to point out that it's short lived but will own you yet still leave you feeling dirty, vile, and alone. And you will not only hurt yourself, but those who are subjected to your complications from it. More than anything, that's the hardest part. Thinking of all I put the few good people around me through. I am happy to hear you got away from crack before anything tragic happened.

So I guess I just wanted to pose my take on this and while I can't say don't do it (hell, I know I am still weak at times), just consider why you are doing it, who you are affecting, and what you are ultimately losing in the process. Starting with fragments of your self.

Thanks again for your support and encouragement. I'm glad I put the initial post back up. Take care.

 

[Shambles]

... Much focus is put on the physical aspects of addiction/dependency, and that is a massive component....I decided to repost my experience b/c I Wanted to focus on the emotional components that were so dominant and ultimately so insidious.

Completely agree. There's far too much emphasis put on the physical aspects of addiction in my book. Ultimately the physical stuff is horrid - really very horrid indeed at times - but that stuff tends to be over relatively quickly. At worse you have maybe a few weeks to go through with methadone w/d and a few other of the ones that really linger. With heroin, maybe a week. Benzos and booze are a bit different due to the very real seizure risks so have to be managed differently but opioids are the ones that are notoriously painful, uncomfortable and just plain nasty. But any opiate/opioid addict has been through them dozens of times by the time they get around to doing it for the last time. The psychological and emotional aspects of w/d never get any easier and they tend to last a lot, lot longer and are far harder to deal with.

It's another of those aspects of addiction I think precious few take into account when starting down that road. Partly because they're not really spoken of very much, partly because people in that situation are often already suffering psychologically and/or emotionally so maybe don't think it could be any worse than the situation they're already in. I think anybody who tried to go that route would agree that it most definitely can - does and will - get worse than the situation they are already in.

I always find the physical stuff makes for a good enough excuse to go back cos it really is unpleasant and it really does hurt. Makes perfect sense to take a painkiller when in pain. It's having to come to terms with the fact that the pain you're in is really not physical that's the hard part cos they don't make painkillers for that. You have to find another way somehow.

 

[SandyFrank]

Completely agree. There's far too much emphasis put on the physical aspects of addiction in my book. Ultimately the physical stuff is horrid - really very horrid indeed at times - but that stuff tends to be over relatively quickly. At worse you have maybe a few weeks to go through with methadone w/d and a few other of the ones that really linger. With heroin, maybe a week. Benzos and booze are a bit different due to the very real seizure risks so have to be managed differently but opioids are the ones that are notoriously painful, uncomfortable and just plain nasty. But any opiate/opioid addict has been through them dozens of times by the time they get around to doing it for the last time. The psychological and emotional aspects of w/d never get any easier and they tend to last a lot, lot longer and are far harder to deal with.

It's another of those aspects of addiction I think precious few take into account when starting down that road. Partly because they're not really spoken of very much, partly because people in that situation are often already suffering psychologically and/or emotionally so maybe don't think it could be any worse than the situation they're already in. I think anybody who tried to go that route would agree that it most definitely can - does and will - get worse than the situation they are already in.

I always find the physical stuff makes for a good enough excuse to go back cos it really is unpleasant and it really does hurt. Makes perfect sense to take a painkiller when in pain. It's having to come to terms with the fact that the pain you're in is really not physical that's the hard part cos they don't make painkillers for that. You have to find another way somehow.

Perfectly said. Especially the bit at the end. Physical pain is something that, while it really does suck, is easy to use as a justification or externalization of internal issues. From my POV, there are those who never get into drugs at all, those who flirt with them in their youth (usually softer ones), those who use recreationally, and habitual or periodic binge users. IMO, the average person wont go near harder drugs, or even some I've met seem reviled by softer ones. Maybe I'm generalizing, but I think a. no one sets out to just 'fall into' an addiction, no matter what kind, and b. in the majority of cases it's to either self medicate or dislocate from emotional pain. And then you're stuck in a cycle. But a lot of people have hard time admitting that. I did. I thought 'oh, hey, I'm having fun' but deep down, I knew there were deep rooted reasons compelling me to do these things (that made me feel disgusted with myself) that I hadn't even made sense of yet. And I think that's also part of why people relapse so often. They haven't fully dealt with the underlying issues, or things such as PAWS take them by surprise. That's a bitch, too, and I'd never even heard of it until I went off benzos the first time. So just wanted to agree with you, and also maybe if someone is in a dark place hope that they can see that though it's very difficult, accepting what it is you're escaping is ultimately empowering. I have my slip ups all the time, but know I will do my damnest to never reach such a self destructive place again - I was a lost, stupid kid and it took a loooong time to forgive myself for what the external me had allowed to happen, if that makes sense. No matter what anyone out there has done, be kind to yourself and try to accept who you REALLY are and not the self-perception you have, perhaps due to trauma or internal issues or things the 'external' you has done while in the grips of that addiction push and pull. Awareness and forgiveness are key to moving on, as is letting go of shame. Maybe if more people felt this was okay to entertain, it could help open up why we really get into these situations. Dunno if that makes sense, but I hope it does. That's all I really wanted to say. Good luck to anyone having a go of it.

 

[Si Dread]

Hey, thanks for coming back! Well replicated post & kudos for your continued candor. There's no shame in making mistakes regardless of their nature. Everyone makes mistakes. Learning from them is a trickier balancing act.

Shambs, you've only complicated matters by adding the dependency versus addiction angle. Thanks

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Thankyou for your outstanding contributions on this topic SF. I really like your style of writing. I hope Im not scaring you away by 'appearing creepy' but i genuinely mean that. Of course it is the content that is more important than the style but that is also something i can relate to.

 

[Si Dread]

content is much easier to absorb when well written, right?

 

[ColtDan]

Yeah. and paragraphed