Opioids Does anyone believe buprenorphine (suboxone) can assist with kratom addiction?

[pinpoint]

I originally went on bupe to do a taper because back then everyone thought it was easier to get off bupe than other short-acting opiates.. obviously looking back this was nothing more than pharma propaganda. Anyways I never exceeded 4mg/day and never felt like I had to. If I took more than that it would just give me headaches with dysphoria.

Obviously my taper didn't go as planned and I ended up on bupe for ~ 5 years with brief relapses in between. The mood lift you get after dosing bupe dissipates but never goes away entirely.. eventually though I felt like (and was) an emotionless, sexless zombie. I came off bupe last summer and have been off it ever since. It took me close to a month to feel better physically but the post acute withdrawal (PAWS) phase is what kills you. It lasts forever. Feeling lethargically anxious and depressed all the time is no way to live. Kratom has helped me although it is nothing more than a (much) weaker substitute opiate.

I can see how you're tempted with bupe - the promise of a withdrawal & worry-free life is intriguing. I however know what lies at the end of that road and never want to go back there again. This is why I come across the way I do when I tell you to be careful.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Yeah, there is a lot of misinformation out there about bupe, a lot of it perpetrated by the actual doctors that prescribe it. So, people see it as this magic pill, an easy way out, etc, and it's just not the reality. So, I applaud anyone who takes the time to actually research shit for themselves.

 

[amanitadine]

Yeah, it's like people need to prove and convince everyone that they are are "hard" enough and that they need bupe or methadone because their habit was big enough!

Ha. As if it's cool to be addicted to high doses of strong opiates.

Ridiculous.

I don't know how you inferred this from his posts, and this is a rather rude post, especially for a moderator. I noticed you downplaying poppy pod tea in another thread as well, and it is ludicrous of you to speak authoritatively on things of which you have limited or no experience. I spent the better part of a decade as a high dose IV heroin addict, and personally I would rather kick a bundle or two a day dope habit than a heavy pod tea habit, any day. Heroin is nasty but it is a clean kick. Poppy tea, and high dose Kratom for some, is bad because of the very mixed mechanisms of action.

I was on methadone (100mg daily) for a few years, and suboxone (24mg tapering down) for a few more, and I still say high dose poppy tea and Kratom are up there with those two devils. Not joking. Granted, 16 mg may be a bit high, but at my level of Kratom usage (50g a day) it would take that to stabilize me at first. I would quickly taper down however, as suboxone is no joke either.

This is a harm reduction forum, and if the OP's life has improved while taking suboxone, why not? I understand you are trying to warn him about the downsides of suboxone, but the condescending and dicksizing way you go about it isn't too helpful, or becoming of a moderator. Alright, you've got a heavy duty heroin habit....your trophy is in the mail.
Cripes.

 

[Beavesmx44]

I don't know how you inferred this from his posts, and this is a rather rude post, especially for a moderator. I noticed you downplaying poppy pod tea in another thread as well, and it is ludicrous of you to speak authoritatively on things of which you have limited or no experience. I spent the better part of a decade as a high dose IV heroin addict, and personally I would rather kick a bundle or two a day dope habit than a heavy pod tea habit, any day. Heroin is nasty but it is a clean kick. Poppy tea, and high dose Kratom for some, is bad because of the very mixed mechanisms of action.

I was on methadone (100mg daily) for a few years, and suboxone (24mg tapering down) for a few more, and I still say high dose poppy tea and Kratom are up there with those two devils. Not joking. Granted, 16 mg may be a bit high, but at my level of Kratom usage (50g a day) it would take that to stabilize me at first. I would quickly taper down however, as suboxone is no joke either.

This is a harm reduction forum, and if the OP's life has improved while taking suboxone, why not? I understand you are trying to warn him about the downsides of suboxone, but the condescending and dicksizing way you go about it isn't too helpful, or becoming of a moderator. Alright, you've got a heavy duty heroin habit....your trophy is in the mail.
Cripes.

So you have simply replaced one addiction for another for the better part of 15 years+ ??? Sounds like you may have gone down the same path the op is trying/thinking of. Did it work for you and would you recommend it???? I would certainly hope not. It's cool that you can empathize with the op in such a way but realize taking suboxone to kick a lesser habit is quite the opposite of harm reduction. Sounds like the op just needs a hard dose of reality. Tough it out and kick the habit. The withdrawals are mainly mental with kratom.

 

[amanitadine]

The withdrawals are not mainly mental with Kratom, long term high dose, at all! Yes, I traded addictions for 15 years, and no, I am not happy about it. No real regrets, counter productive, but I do wish I hadn't fumbled into Kratom as a way out of subs. I would have been better toughing out the suboxone withdrawal. Suboxone and methadone were a great way out of the heroin lifestyle, no regrets there. But in terms of just the withdrawal, heroin would have been the easiest. Quick and hard, but to the point.

I am surprised so many of you paint your experiences or assumptions as the ultimate truth. I'm just sharing my experience, as is the OP, and the venom and sarcasm isn't helpful to anyone.

For what it worth, 7-OH mitragynine is 17 x the potency of morphine in vitro. Mitagyine pseudoindoxyl is 30x...and the opioid aspect of Kratom withdrawal is only one portion of it. The other aspects are the more insidious...like a combination of antidepressant withdrawal and calcium channel blockers, like Gabapentin. Like I said, if this attempt at a kick doesn't work I will gladly consider going on a straight Mu agonist for a few weeks to a month to divide the withdrawal into more manageable portions.

And how is it going for me? Do you ask that sincerely or just being snide? I've spent the last 5 months trying to kick Kratom, about half of that off. Keep trying. I'm not sure where "lesser habit" is coming from. It's all relative. For me, Kratom is proving harder to stay off than the aforementioned other opioids. Like I said, whether that is because of it's unique pharmacology or accessibility/acceptability, I don't know. I just know that it is a bitch, and to downplay anyone's struggles is petty and goes against the ethos of this site. I don't spend much time in OD since I returned in 09, namely because my lifestyle has changed, but that attitude is one of the reasons as well.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

The withdrawals are not mainly mental with Kratom, long term high dose, at all! Yes, I traded addictions for 15 years, and no, I am not happy about it. No real regrets, counter productive, but I do wish I hadn't fumbled into Kratom as a way out of subs. I would have been better toughing out the suboxone withdrawal. Suboxone and methadone were a great way out of the heroin lifestyle, no regrets there. But in terms of just the withdrawal, heroin would have been the easiest. Quick and hard, but to the point.

I am surprised so many of you paint your experiences or assumptions as the ultimate truth. I'm just sharing my experience, as is the OP, and the venom and sarcasm isn't helpful to anyone.

For what it worth, 7-OH mitragynine is 17 x the potency of morphine in vitro. Mitagyine pseudoindoxyl is 30x...and the opioid aspect of Kratom withdrawal is only one portion of it. The other aspects are the more insidious...like a combination of antidepressant withdrawal and calcium channel blockers, like Gabapentin. Like I said, if this attempt at a kick doesn't work I will gladly consider going on a straight Mu agonist for a few weeks to a month to divide the withdrawal into more manageable portions.

And how is it going for me? Do you ask that sincerely or just being snide? I've spent the last 5 months trying to kick Kratom, about half of that off. Keep trying. I'm not sure where "lesser habit" is coming from. It's all relative. For me, Kratom is proving harder to stay off than the aforementioned other opioids. Like I said, whether that is because of it's unique pharmacology or accessibility/acceptability, I don't know. I just know that it is a bitch, and to downplay anyone's struggles is petty and goes against the ethos of this site. I don't spend much time in OD since I returned in 09, namely because my lifestyle has changed, but that attitude is one of the reasons as well.

^^ I have never once heard anyone summarize my plight and thoughts more accurately than this in my entire life. It's very refreshing to hear someone explain the difficulties that arise with kratom and pod tea so eloquently. Thank you so much man, your post made my day and made me feel a little more supported. I NEVER intended to stay on 16 mg/day, but as you said, this is what it took to stabilize me in the beginning. I have used all sorts of full opiate agonists including oxycodone and morphine and I will say, kratom is the hardest to kick. I really appreciate you pointing out that condescending behavior on a harm reduction forum, especially in a thread which is about an individual's recovery from addiction, is completely uncalled for. I find it ironic that I was accused of talking about how "hardcore" my opiate use is when in reality that poster was actually dicksizing. And about your theories on the reason kratom is so hard to kick; I believe that it is not so much one or the other, but rather a combination of all the statements you made. Kratom's accessibility over the internet has made it incredibly easy for me to obtain at any point I wish. On top of that, if I really get desperate and sick, I can just take the train to a headshop in Boston where I live and pay a hefty fee (which at the time I'm willing to impulsively do...) to get my "fix". The relative social acceptability of kratom, sans the opinions of my close friends and family who are aware of the ways in which kratom has affected me, has made it much easier for ME to downplay my addiction. In "regular" opiate addiction, the user themself is usually the only one downplaying the severity of their addiction but with kratom, others also downplay the addiction FOR me as has just been exemplified by some posts in this thread. The withdrawal from kratom is *so* strange in that there are varying symptoms that emerge throughout different points in time that are all distinct and uniquely uncomfortable. As you said, you are withdrawing from a calcium-channel blocker, adrenergic compounds, muscle relaxers, NMDA-antagonists, possible 5HT2A antagonists, various full and partial opiate agonists, and a host of other alkaloids which have either yet to be identified or whose mechanisms of action are unclear. Now that I am stabilized, I plan to drastically reduce my buprenorphine dose. It just took 16mg to stabilize me from a 2,000 gram a month kratom habit. I really appreciate everything you said man, it's so nice to have someone I can relate to with this unique addiction. Those who downplay kratom addiction and say to "tough it out" clearly have no idea what it's like to have a long term high dose kratom habit, and I find it extremely rude and condescending. Don't they think if I could just simply stop like that and quote un quote "man up" without any assistance that I would do so? I have tried more times than I can count, and this for me is better than nothing as a step down regimen; not a long term maintenance plan. It's gonna be a long road, but I'm prepared. Thanks for the kind words @aminitadine, you just gave me a little more hope and strength for the day. Thirty days without kratom in 5 days!

 

[amanitadine]

Right on man! I wish you the best. You will find that buprenorphine is very easy to taper due to it's pharmacology and pharmacokinetics....especially if you aren't on it long term. I was on it for quite long, and didn't experience any difficulty until I got to 2 mg. If you are smart and determined with it, you can taper down quickly, start exercising, etc, and hopefully not have too difficult of a withdrawal or drawn out PAWS...stick to your guns! And keep us posted!

 

[Treefa]

Wow that's like a metric-fuckton of kratom you went through!

Anyway didn't read every paragraph but from what I gather you were on pain pills, then went to kratom, and are now on Suboxone maintenance and wondering why the subs aren't giving you the mood boost it used to, correct?

Personally I can take subs and still feel kind of down if that makes sense. Like I get decent pain relief from it, and don't get me wrong it WILL give me a good buzz and have my body feeling pretty damn good, but it's lacking many of the traditional opiate effects that we all know and love. Hence it being Rx'd for addiction. People don't (excuse me addicts don't) get high on it, though they may try and try, it will never really be the same as morphine and the like.
I think it's lacking in a large way in "mu" agonism, at least in my personal experience.
It is actually a very potent drug, something to the tune of 7X, or 17X the potency of morphine...or is that dilaudid? Well I don't remember.

But bottom line is that most of the energy, mood-lift, and especially the euphoria and all that are mainly caused by the mu receptors, and bupe is only a partial agonist as you well know.

Don't know what else to tell you but good luck. You can do it...if you miss the euphoria that much than pick up a reefer habit or something benign.

P.S. I don't take the stuff regularly at all, just when I run out and need something to get through the day, so other posters with long-term sub experience may be able to better provide good advice.

 

[adder]

For me the mood boost from Suboxone lasted similarly long as for others. It was a few months and it was gone. 4 years ago I took simply buprenorphine and it did wonders at the very beginning too, but then I needed very high doses to keep withdrawals away. Actually, even at ~20mg with time I started feeling chills, I even tried breaking through with fentanyl analogues... So the mood lift was gone within weeks then. Anyway, now it's been 1.5 years since I started the maintenance and although the mood lift is long gone, I cherish Suboxone, because it gives the freedom that I didn't have when I was in the morphine's arms or heroin's, or even methadone's. It's that constant problem of getting more and more, if it was all legal, uncontrolled, I'm sure I would be a lifetime morphine addict, because nothing comes close to this I've learnt, not even love. From time to time I do feel an urge to take a full agonist. On a few occasions I did break or I needed to get my pupils constricted before collecting Suboxone because I'd run out of it early. Sadly, the feeling from full agonists is very flat after years of abuse. I'm currently on 8mg a day, for me the difference between 6mg and 8mg is placebo, 8mg just lasts longer, but I still sometimes run out of it early. This is because I do long for that warm cocoon, and when I read the first post, I must say the words "warmth glow" made me want it just now. I won't lie, despite that flatness full agonists are still something beyond dependence and all the stuff related, I'm naturally a very nervous person. I've learnt to deal with anxiety when I quit clonazepam, but I'm very easily getting pissed off, and morphine has always been my "home", where I could go alone, feel safe, not bothered by anyone, without having to do anything, without needing anything, and having everything you possibly could need.

Buprenorphine will never provide such comfort for two reasons. The first obvious one is because it's only a partial agonist, and the second one is because it's also only a partial agonist / silent antagonist at kappa receptors and it's efficacy there is much lower than at mu receptors. Sometimes I like to take some mianserin just after I take Suboxone, because it's also a weak kappa agonist, with the right synergy it's even possible to get a semblance of kappa agonism hallucinations, but I like how it relaxes my leg muscles, sometimes I'm having like 10% of restless legs from the withdrawal and there's nothing I can do with it, from all the stuff I tried only mianserin sometimes helps, but it's also very sleepy, and cannabis. And kappa agonism plays much role in how morphine high feels like too, and also this is why opioids cause depression on the long run. Morphine simply has the best mu/kappa ratio for me and additionally enough is left peripherally to produce the overall body high (unlike heroin and unlike hydromorphone or oxymorphone, no matter how euphoric intravenously they may be seen).

 

[EarthBounded]

Suboxone IMO would be way more addictive then Kratom that is being looked into for similar effects to ibogaine. I find Kratom to be easy to break and I have taken a lot of it... That is just my experience.

 

[LSDMDMA&AMP]

Yeah, there is a lot of misinformation out there about bupe, a lot of it perpetrated by the actual doctors that prescribe it. So, people see it as this magic pill, an easy way out, etc, and it's just not the reality. So, I applaud anyone who takes the time to actually research shit for themselves.

I agree. imo subs/methadone are for serious hard opiate dependance eg strong painkillers and heroin. The point of subs is to replace your opiate doc with a medication to keep you from using more dangerous opiates. It makes sense for heroin addicts who risk od/death with every use and for strong painkillers but for something like kratom imo subs is replacing a mild, relatively safe/not dangerous "addiction" with a far more powerful dependance.
kratom simply isnt highly habit forming the way heroin, morphine, oxy etc. are and kratom is so weak in terms of strength compared to "normal" heavy strength opiates that the treatment for addiction to serious narcotics isnt appropriate.
Ive been an iv heroin user for more than a year now and i became an everyday user snorting within a month orbtwo of starting experimenting with heroin so imo i can talk about what real opiate addiction is.
kratom will never be in the same ballpark of addictiveness as heroin, morphine, oxy, etc. And trying to claim that your addiction to kratom is just as severe as a heroin habit is truly ignorant of what being addicted to iving heroin/pills or even snorting heroin/pills is like to experience.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

Wow that's like a metric-fuckton of kratom you went through!

Anyway didn't read every paragraph but from what I gather you were on pain pills, then went to kratom, and are now on Suboxone maintenance and wondering why the subs aren't giving you the mood boost it used to, correct?

Personally I can take subs and still feel kind of down if that makes sense. Like I get decent pain relief from it, and don't get me wrong it WILL give me a good buzz and have my body feeling pretty damn good, but it's lacking many of the traditional opiate effects that we all know and love. Hence it being Rx'd for addiction. People don't (excuse me addicts don't) get high on it, though they may try and try, it will never really be the same as morphine and the like.
I think it's lacking in a large way in "mu" agonism, at least in my personal experience.
It is actually a very potent drug, something to the tune of 7X, or 17X the potency of morphine...or is that dilaudid? Well I don't remember.

But bottom line is that most of the energy, mood-lift, and especially the euphoria and all that are mainly caused by the mu receptors, and bupe is only a partial agonist as you well know.

Don't know what else to tell you but good luck. You can do it...if you miss the euphoria that much than pick up a reefer habit or something benign.

P.S. I don't take the stuff regularly at all, just when I run out and need something to get through the day, so other posters with long-term sub experience may be able to better provide good advice.

No, I was simply stating that I do get a mood boost from Suboxone and was wondering if that will stay. The boost is nothing even remotely resembling an opiate high, and I am completely fine with that. It almost feels like how mornings felt as a kid when I would wake up ready to take on the world and it's almost a high within itself feeling like myself again and being able to enjoy things through out the day. I almost feel like the supposed "mood boost" may even just be the high of feeling normal, but was wondering if it ever goes sour (not that it has for me yet as you thought). I am not still chasing the mu euphoria any longer at all, as all any opiate provides me now is flat and mental dullness (besides suboxone which stabilizes me). I am not seeking a high or missing the euphoria. I think you misread my post. Thanks for the response though!

 

[BirdOfPrey]

I agree. imo subs/methadone are for serious hard opiate dependance eg strong painkillers and heroin. The point of subs is to replace your opiate doc with a medication to keep you from using more dangerous opiates. It makes sense for heroin addicts who risk od/death with every use and for strong painkillers but for something like kratom imo subs is replacing a mild, relatively safe/not dangerous "addiction" with a far more powerful dependance.
kratom simply isnt highly habit forming the way heroin, morphine, oxy etc. are and kratom is so weak in terms of strength compared to "normal" heavy strength opiates that the treatment for addiction to serious narcotics isnt appropriate.
Ive been an iv heroin user for more than a year now and i became an everyday user snorting within a month orbtwo of starting experimenting with heroin so imo i can talk about what real opiate addiction is.
kratom will never be in the same ballpark of addictiveness as heroin, morphine, oxy, etc. And trying to claim that your addiction to kratom is just as severe as a heroin habit is truly ignorant of what being addicted to iving heroin/pills or even snorting heroin/pills is like to experience.

I never ever claimed that Kratom was a harder habit to quit than heroin, as I have never had experience with heroin, although I actually have been told this by some heroin users. I have, however, had extensive experience with high dose potent opiates and can honestly say that for me kratom has been the hardest to quit. I never said it was this way for any one else. Why do some people assume that nobody can have different experiences than them with the same chemicals/plants?

 

[Hammilton]

I just want to say that, after having used uei, I can understand why one would need suboxone. Uei has little in common with kratom. After using it a couple times I'd say it compares favorably to oxy. People need to judge a uei habit very differently from a standard kratom habit.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

I have also used UEI extensively and I do see your point. However, I believe that they are not necessarily completely different habits. UEI forms dependency and addiction much more rapidly than plain leaf due to its purified alkaloid content. However, if one uses massive amounts of plain leaf for very extensive periods of time (years), I believe the withdrawal can be just as intense. You are basically just taking less alkaloids with plain leaf but are able to use it more frequently and in larger doses due to the lower price. In the end, the withdrawal/dependency is all the same.

 

[Screaming_Skull]

If it works for you I say do it, but I don't see a reason to be on 16mg, that is a high dose and it will just be a pain in the ass to get off of at the end, worse than Kratom! May have read it wrong but I don't really feel a difference between 8 to 16mg. I'm prescribed 16mg and usually stick to 4-8mg... I tried to maintain on Kratom when quitting pills but was literally eating about 20 Tablespoons a day and said fuck it and went back to oxy/hyro's/morphine/hydromorphone, but looking back kinda wish I woulda stayed on Kratom, but honestly it wasn't really helping me because I would still go out and get pills, after having the 20 tablespoons of kratom,lol,so it was pointless for me...and totally agree with you amantadine, Pod/Seed withdrawl is soooo much worse than just pills, I never felt depression like that, tried kratom to kick the pods but it wasn't strong enough, I was walking around in that kinda withdrawl foggy ALL the time haze. Loperamide worked better.... Honestly,kinda wish I woulda just went back on pods though instead of pills, but I would do pills on top of those also sooo, ya. Thats why I chose subs. But have you thought about giving Loperamide a shot?? It really does work WONDERS!! Tried those also but would also use on top of those..Talk about being CONSTIPATED. Somebody would ALWAYS come through with something after I downed a bottle before work, and well being a junkie I guese I can't say no, even if im well. Lope seemed to block other opiates a little bit to with me...