I Like to Draw Pictures of Random Molecules

[JWills20]

MED ---> NPD. Chemistry really isn't our thing in MED, perhaps the neuroscience and pharmacology guys can provide some insight.

 

[Solipsis]

What makes you think any of these suggest a new class of drugs?

I thought I was clear earlier in the 5-HO-DMT thread about oversimplifying cut and paste style chemistry Lego-ing?

 

[ShaggyFin]

MED ---> NPD. Chemistry really isn't our thing in MED, perhaps the neuroscience and pharmacology guys can provide some insight.

I'm reading up on the chemistry myself right now. I'm not at all sure what it would be like as far as effects, but I think I can hypothesize on things that can be formed.

 

[Solipsis]

So you just "guess" out of the blue that they could be drugs if you would modify them in one of the countless ways.

Continuing on the lego analogy, that would be the same as dumping a metric ton of lego somewhere and picking a few pieces randomly and saying: I might be onto something.

Err, we're gonna need a little more than that. 8)

---

Granted, myrcene appears to be mildly psychoactive but it is only very mild and therefore not really promising.
Damascone is a cyclohexene and terpenoid but is it psychoactive to begin with?

And again: slapping carbonyl oxygens or chloro's onto some chemicals willy nilly is not drug design, you kind of need an aim - and other than that if something like myrcene were promising then yes what big pharm company labs might do is investigate analogues by modifying the structure. Still nowadays this isn't done at random, it is modelled based on what receptors you wish to agonize or antagonize.

 

[ShaggyFin]

The above image of bk-2C-B-NBOMe is missing the letter "r" next to the "B". Br stands for bromine / colliquially bromo (which is the prefix name for the element bromine), B stands for boron which is another element.

I actually got that image from a page that was proposing NEW NBOMe molecules that have not been made yet. I am actually not sure what it is meant to be.

[/B]. So on terpenes you can certainly 'design' an additional =O carbonyl oxygen, but that doesn't magically create an interesting structure. It only makes sense if you depart from a certain drug that would benefit from the modification.

I am not suggesting we may find some miracle drug, just a likable non-dangerous one.

No offense, I applaud the enthousiasm, but you need to either learn some more chemistry and/or stay more close to home regarding drug design. Ketonating the shit out of random chemicals does not mean anything per se, it is a trivial thing in organic chem and there are other considerations if it's going to be worth investigating any bit.*

(What Sekio said plus where I marked * are reasons why bk-etizolam, bk-kavalactones, etc don't make sense. With some exceptions perhaps, for example 'beta-keto tryptamines' apparently have been discussed, just BL-google that)

I am not like sitting at a work bench ready to pour these things, I am just proposing a discussion that could lead to something larger.

 

[ShaggyFin]

So you just "guess" out of the blue that they could be drugs if you would modify them in one of the countless ways.

Is that not how everything was made int he first place? Without Pihkal and Tihkal, you could say the same about Phenethylamines and Tryptamines.

Granted, myrcene appears to be mildly psychoactive but it is only very mild and therefore not really promising.
Damascone is a cyclohexene and terpenoid but is it psychoactive to begin with?

Pepper is not psychoactive and we use it to make Ecstasy.

 

[Solipsis]

I actually got that image from a page that was proposing NEW NBOMe molecules that have not been made yet. I am actually not sure what it is meant to be.

It would be the hybrid of bk-2C-B and 25B-NBOMe. And it seems like a disastrous idea.

I am not suggesting we may find some miracle drug, just a likable non-dangerous one.

And I am suggesting the idea is flawed in a way that will theoretically make potentially dangerous or at the very least uneconomical drugs. I for one wouldn't like to be around when it is released on unwitting people who will try anything.

 

[ShaggyFin]

It would be the hybrid of bk-2C-B and 25B-NBOMe. And it seems like a disastrous idea.

Not my idea, and I don't plan on making it. I am just trying to open people's minds to the possibilities.

And I am suggesting the idea is flawed in a way that will theoretically make potentially dangerous or at the very least uneconomical drugs. I for one wouldn't like to be around when it is released on unwitting people who will try anything.

You are being very general.

I am again not certain of the possibilities, but what about something like a weaker version of LSD (bk-LSD, bk-LSA) or a weaker version of Mescaline. Can you not see how this could lead to a more widespread acceptance of psychedelic use? You are already blowing them off as if they will be too weak for the value, what if that is the form of psychedelics society NEEDS.

Please start at the beginning and learn introductory chemistry, organic chemistry and medicinal chemistry first (and also ideally drug design).

I started with Marijuana extraction (at 14 years old), then things like Kava extraction and at this time I am studying natural products and marine natural products. I will get to organic chemistry eventually, but I have a lot of books to read.

 

[Solipsis]

No. Pihkal compounds started out from mescaline which was found in nature (in cactus species) and Tihkal started out from psilocin which was also found in nature in mushrooms. Both are already psychoactive so modifying them to see if you come up with compounds that are still psychoactive but in a different way is logical and it has a reasonable chance of succeeding.

We don't really use pepper to make ecstasy. MDMA is made from saffrol compounds found in sassefras. Piperine which is a compound found in pepper, is indeed related to those saffroles but that is all.

You can't magically expect to depart from an unactive compound and modify it until you end up with something active. The chances of that happening are mindbogglingly small. Therefore it is an unrealistic approach.

Do you understand?

 

[ShaggyFin]

No. Pihkal compounds started out from mescaline which was found in nature (in cactus species) and Tihkal started out from psilocin which was also found in nature in mushrooms. Both are already psychoactive so modifying them to see if you come up with compounds that are still psychoactive but in a different way is logical and it has a reasonable chance of succeeding.

We don't really use pepper to make ecstasy. MDMA is made from saffrol compounds found in sassefras. Piperine which is a compound found in pepper, is indeed related to those saffroles but that is all.

You can't magically expect to depart from an unactive compound and modify it until you end up with something active. The chances of that happening are mindbogglingly small. Therefore it is an unrealistic approach.

Do you understand?

Ok, you are right about the Tryptamines, and Mescaline. I hadn't thought about the fact that he started with a known. I agree that we can not assume that what is made will do anything at all, I never said that something would for sure come out. And that it would be like Ecstasy or Mescaline.

But... What I did say is that this would be a new class of drug. And I have a feeling that I can NOT shake that tells me that there is something here.

And I feel like if we started adding Phenethylamine and Tryptamine structures to these 2 things, all bets would be off. Myrcene alone crosses the Blood brain barrier like a MOTHER FUCKER.

What do you think about a discussion that includes things that are KNOWN to be active. Now this thread can make everyone happy.

DXM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DXM


Morphine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphine


LSA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_amide


Erythravine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythravine


Tryptophan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophane


Tropane
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropane


Scopolamine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopolamine


Coumarin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coumarin


Lactucopicrin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactucopicrin


Lactucin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactucin


Phenethylamine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenethylamine


Isopropyl Alcohol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol


Isopropyl Nitrate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_nitrate


Benzaldehyde
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzaldehyde


Cinnamaldehyde
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamaldehyde


Furfural
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furfural


1,4-Benzoquinone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Benzoquinone


Allyl Hexanoate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allyl_hexanoate


Benzyl Acetate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzyl_acetate


Butyl Acetate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl_acetate


Ehtyl Buyrate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_butyrate


Ethyl Formate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_formate


Isobutyl Acetate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobutyl_acetate


Ethyl Heptanoate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_heptanoate

 

[Solipsis]

Not much knowledge is required to pull off extractions, well done tho and no offense, but it is basically similar to making tea. I've done plenty of extractions myself.

Why would weaker versions of existing psychoactives be what society needs? There are mild psychedelics like 2C-D already if you want people to have more acceptable and controllable experiences. Besides I am not against semi-weak compounds, I am against compounds that would be so weak that the dosages would become unresponsibly high.

Have fun dreaming about weak lysergic amides, but there are plenty or well at least a number of them already I think. But there are also reasons why they are not desirable most of all being that they are not as selective in action and may tend to produce a host of very unwelcome or dangerous side effects like lethal vasoconstriction. That is why you only see a few LSD analogues yet. It has to actually be worth it.
And please stop saying bk-this and bk-that, did I not explain how that doesn't make sense?

There are already too many people producing random RC drugs that may be bad for public health and HR, so no I don't have a lot of patience for opening up people's minds to all kinds of random ideas. I like to stick to what seem like trustworthy plans.

If I am being more super general: I think you dream a lot and your imagination runs wild with all the possibilities, but it is a formless sea at this point. I am not saying stop dreaming entirely, but balance it with a healthy dose of skepsis and apprehension. If you are going to dabble in science, don't be careless because if you DO happen to influence the world and other people's lives there may be dire consequences. So take it more seriously. Talking about slapping chemical groups on stuff in a careless way is actually a slap in the face of some people.

Also, there have been numerous threads on beta-ketones already I'm quite sure. Be so good to search for them. Again, I assure you there will be plenty of people complaining about beta-ketone drugs very often being nasty sons a bitches.

 

[sekio]

I am again not certain of the possibilities, but what about something like a weaker version of LSD (bk-LSD, bk-LSA) or a weaker version of Mescaline. Can you not see how this could lead to a more widespread acceptance of psychedelic use?

... a compound that's dosed at half a gram is not weak enough for you?

 

[ShaggyFin]

Not much knowledge is required to pull off extractions, well done tho and no offense, but it is basically similar to making tea. I've done plenty of extractions myself.

Why would weaker versions of existing psychoactives be what society needs? There are mild psychedelics like 2C-D already if you want people to have more acceptable and controllable experiences. Besides I am not against semi-weak compounds, I am against compounds that would be so weak that the dosages would become unresponsibly high.

Have fun dreaming about weak lysergic amides, but there are plenty or well at least a number of them already I think. But there are also reasons why they are not desirable most of all being that they are not as selective in action and may tend to produce a host of very unwelcome or dangerous side effects like lethal vasoconstriction. That is why you only see a few LSD analogues yet. It has to actually be worth it.
And please stop saying bk-this and bk-that, did I not explain how that doesn't make sense?

There are already too many people producing random RC drugs that may be bad for public health and HR, so no I don't have a lot of patience for opening up people's minds to all kinds of random ideas. I like to stick to what seem like trustworthy plans.

If I am being more super general: I think you dream a lot and your imagination runs wild with all the possibilities, but it is a formless sea at this point. I am not saying stop dreaming entirely, but balance it with a healthy dose of skepsis and apprehension. If you are going to dabble in science, don't be careless because if you DO happen to influence the world and other people's lives there may be dire consequences. So take it more seriously. Talking about slapping chemical groups on stuff in a careless way is actually a slap in the face of some people.

Also, there have been numerous threads on beta-ketones already I'm quite sure. Be so good to search for them. Again, I assure you there will be plenty of people complaining about beta-ketone drugs very often being nasty sons a bitches.

I didn't say extractions were especially educational, my point was that I have been doing them since I was 14. And with different things. So I have done a lot of reading about things like Acetone, and Naphtha and Chloroform.

Weaker forms can be better because some people don't want to trip for hours, or trip hard.

I did a search for beta ketone threads and included most of them in my post. I am not doing this willy nilly, I am simply opening up discussion. People do not realize that Acetone is not just a solvent, and people do not realize that chemistry like this will soon be part of every day life. I am simply bringing research together and saying "So what do you think we can do with this?" and if no one is on board, I will just do it myself when I have the time, money and have read a few more books.

 

[ShaggyFin]

... a compound that's dosed at half a gram is not weak enough for you?

"Does it last longer than 30 minutes? And will I still be able to function on it? I have to be to work in an hour, and I still have to get dressed"

The sentence we must worry about if we ever want this shit to be legal.

 

[Solipsis]

I have read somewhere that you can add an "aromatic" beta ketone compound to tons of different terpenes and other alkaloids using acetone, and I was wondering if anyone had any more information on that.

Yes acetone can be a reagent. But quote what you read and elaborate.

Otherwise, good luck with that.

 

[Bagseed]

^ dosing psychedelics prior to responsibilities is not a wise thing to do and should be discouraged. why do you think there is a need for a psychedelic drug you can take before work?

 

[ShaggyFin]

Yes acetone can be a reagent. But quote what you read and elaborate.

Otherwise, good luck with that.

I can't quote it, I have no idea where it is. I am looking right now for what I was talking about though. I was reading through like 1000+ terpenes to see which ones were active for humans, when I came across some stuff about turning terpenes into their Beta Ketone form using acetone.

I'm looking for something to qualify it, hold on.

 

[ShaggyFin]

^ dosing psychedelics prior to responsibilities is not a wise thing to do and should be discouraged. why do you think there is a need for a psychedelic drug you can take before work?

Because if they ever legalize anything like this, it will be because it's not dangerous to the roads and kids.

 

[ebola?]

On average, bk-phenethylamines tend to be less potent and more adrenergic than their parent compounds. There hasn't been much of a case to be made for any beta-ketone being superior to its parent compound (perhaps with the exception of mephedrone, but only because it lacks the gross neurotoxicity of 4-methyl-amphetamine).

ebola

 

[ebola?]

You present a variety of compounds with little mutual relation in terms of structure or activity I'm not sure what constitutes this "new class" of compounds you think is emerging. This conversation could be enriched if you were to elaborate on the rationale behind what you're doing.

ebola