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12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

If anyone in NA says someone is not clean when taking meds as prescribed such as for disease, illness, or maintenance tell them to shut the fuck up and read the "in times of illness" pamphlet and read the section in "more will be revealed" on page 102 about taking medication. Tell them to work their own fucking program and that other peoples health is not their business. Simple as that really. And as the program of NA states, drug usage is a symptom of our disease. So if someone is on maintenance or health meds and making progress, they are in recovery and are deemed clean. I'm almost itching for someone to try that shit in a meeting here...

I don't know, maybe I just went to bad meetings. They weren't all like that but the bad experiences that I had with a few meetings were just awful, KWIM? Even though I'm an Atheist I did try to do the whole 12 step thing. It just didn't work for me.

I'm living in a different state now though so maybe I should check out the meetings around here to see what they're like. I still have most of my NA/AA books. If I do I'll let you guys know how it goes. I'm not on MMT anymore so I don't have to worry about that aspect.
 
I'm an atheist in NA so I can relate with some of the difficulties that situation. Read the chapter, "for the atheist and the agnostic" in the big book and the story "atheists recover too" in the basic text if you haven't already. Its possible to do 12 step work as an atheist and since I opened up about being an atheist in meetings I've met a few more and have concersated about our struggles and have helped others, especially new comer atheists, on their path in recovery.
 
DrunkardsDream: How is AA detrimental? Labeling it as a cult and letting that stand alone as your criticism is like accusing someone of being a communist in the 50s.

And yes, long term sobriety in AA requires honesty and buy in to the steps. That is how it works. At the end of the day its just a bunch of drunks and junkies trying to stay sober. Why all of the hate?
 
DrunkardsDream: How is AA detrimental? Labeling it as a cult and letting that stand alone as your criticism is like accusing someone of being a communist in the 50s.

And yes, long term sobriety in AA requires honesty and buy in to the steps. That is how it works. At the end of the day its just a bunch of drunks and junkies trying to stay sober. Why all of the hate?

I didn't even want to open this thread because I knew I'd see that kind of thing. Shit, I'm a member of a Big Book Step Study group... that's like, a cult within a cult! Fuck me, right? ;)

All jokes aside though, using the steps I've been able to build a wonderful life from nothing. I came to South Florida with a duffel bag full of dirty clothes and instead of fucking everything up like I always did I took some suggestions and got to work. Not only did it work for me but I have seen it work and transform countless lives. AA never claims to be the only method to stop drinking, and I don't think NA makes any similar claims either. I was totally a naysayer at one time but if I didn't do the work I've done I am not sure I'd still be alive, or off drugs, or have a place to live, or be disease free, or out of jail, or have a relationship with my parents or my siblings, or anything but miserable.

A major point of contention exists between the AA worldview and a more atheist one in that we in AA often do not choose to attribute our success with getting and staying sober to our own free will, but instead credit God. We could argue about that all day, and it would get us nowhere. It worked for me, and I think it can work for anyone desperate enough. If there is another way to do it, great... I sincerely hope it works for anyone who tries it. I wouldn't change what I've done for anything.
 
Hello TDS,

This is an old thread so mods feel free to lock/discard it, but I thought it might be of some value to others and myself. At the end of the month I will have 6 months of sobriety thanks to AA. Last year around this time I had around 5 months of sobriety and decided to go back out. Heres what happened:

I drank first, just 2 beers. Then at some point I justified getting adderall/ADD meds and klonnopin for Finals. The rest is a blur but I do remember drinking quite a bit and eventually contacting my heroin dealer. That was probley a couple months after the initial 2 beers. Then I got in the habit of driving 3 hours both ways a few times a week to get dope. And I was shooting dope, taking benzos, and messing around with amphetamines. I got into a relationship with a girl and barely graduated college. I continued going to meetings, but I was loaded, and had someone in AA report me to the cops so I was arrested with a 2nd DUI.

That was around June. MY girlfriend left my in July. Then I started running out of money and sold my 46'inch TV and .38 special handgun. Towards the end of July it became apparent that my friend was stealing half of my dope, and I had no other way of getting the stuff so I continued being taken advantage by him until one day he ripped me off to blatantly and I snapped and we fought. After that I was cut off from dope but still had pills, alcohol. Until July 30th when I was being threatened to be kicked out of my parents house and homeless or sent to rehab. So I decided to get sober (mostly out of fear) and went back to AA with my tail between my legs.

That was almost 6 months ago. And I have worked hard to be free of all mind altering substances. Here comes the insanity, the last few weeks I have been hit with PAWS or depression or something, and have been romantacising drinking/opiates again. Yesterday I came the closest to relapsing as ever before. I'm writing this update to remind myself that it's an all or nothing situation. It's truly insane that I would want to go back to that chaos when I know things will be misery on a scale I have yet to experience. Yet sobriety is no cakewalk, and at 28 years old, I have been feeling very sorry for myself that I basically f*cked myself into sobriety being my only option. Now I never get a break, and the depression, fear, and all that stuff I use to drink/use over is there on a daily basis. I'm paying court fines and living at home and clearing up the wreckage of my past. And it's gonna take a long time to clear it up.

Anyways, I feel bad for bashing AA, and owe the program for allowing me a chance at a better life. I wish it were easier to leave alcohol/drugs behind but they call out to me on a daily basis and I feel my resolve weakening. Thank you for letting me share.

-G2T
 
Thanks for the update G2T.. There is some good stuff in >this thread post 3< about the addiction cycle. I find it really helpful to frequently identify where I am in the cycle as it then allows me to perform things that help me exit out before I get to use. Where do you think you are at right now and what do you think you can do to return to a different point?

Nice work on working yourself back out of the flames=D now how can you prevent yourself from walking back in? ;)
 
Awesome g2t! As they say.. It takes what it takes. Unfortunately I don't know many people who have bailed on AA and had things work out for them. I KNOW there are many ways of staying sober besides AA - The problem, from what I can tell, is that most people who bail from AA don't replace what they were doing with any other form of recovery and once they bail, they are now doing nothing in order to prevent relapse. If anyone decides AA isn't for them, thats totally fine!!! But I would be hard pressed to believe that they can not only remain sober, but become/remain happy as well, without working some sort of program.

Glad you got yourself back into recovery though! That's fantastic. I have relapsed after 4-5 months quite a few times myself, though this is the first time I have ever worked a daily program and not only has my way of thinking and acting changed dramatically, but my emotional state has improved a ton as well. I know if I hadn't made some serious changes this last time in many ways besides simply not using, then I wouldn't have lasted nearly this long.

Great work, keep it up!
 
I find it amusing going back and reading my old posts and how cocky I was about sobriety.

Don't beat yourself up too much, G2K, and don't underestimate being fucked back into sobriety, it could surely be worse.

I love that article, NSA. This place is a goldmine for people looking for a hand up.
 
Thanks for the update G2T.. There is some good stuff in >this thread post 3< about the addiction cycle. I find it really helpful to frequently identify where I am in the cycle as it then allows me to perform things that help me exit out before I get to use. Where do you think you are at right now and what do you think you can do to return to a different point?

Nice work on working yourself back out of the flames=D now how can you prevent yourself from walking back in? ;)

Damn I somehow missed that thread you made, man. Very good shit. Good work brother.
 
G2T, one of your best strengths is your willingness to be honest with yourself. I remember when you started this thread and everybody came on to tell you, "Put the brakes on! Stop! Don't give in to those impulses" and you just kept rationalizing them. I thought then that this relapse was something that you were just going to do no matter what your best instincts told you. I think maybe you need to really push the limits before you can fully subscribe to something. So you really pushed them, more than once, and now here you are. Yay! Here you are. You didn't kill yourself thank heavens and now you can be clearer than ever about two things: 1) you know the amazing power that your addiction uses to sway your thoughts and 2) you know the outcome is never good.

I trust your honesty. You have that voice inside you as well as the voice of addiction. Only one of those voices is you. When the other one pipes up, call up your troops because that one is an invader!=D

I'm really thrilled to see you back and to hear that you are putting the pieces back together. You brought yourself back. You should take some well deserved pride in that. <3
 
Thanks herb, I appreciate that. Yeah I had to come back to sobriety or be homeless and learn what suffering is really all about. Can you believe with almost 6 months of good clean time, the last few weeks I have been considering "going back out" once I get 6 months. This is a daily struggle and I can't stop thinking about using the money I've earned in sobriety to get some dope and just get absolutely lit.

One of the main driving forces to this kind of thinking is this: "I'm only 28, I'm too young to be sober for the rest of my life. What the fuck is that?" I swear lately it feels like I'm serving a prison sentence of sobriety. I guess I'm still waiting for myself to not be ungrateful that I've been given a new life and a 2nd chance at life.
 
One of the main driving forces to this kind of thinking is this: "I'm only 28, I'm too young to be sober for the rest of my life. What the fuck is that?" I swear lately it feels like I'm serving a prison sentence of sobriety. I guess I'm still waiting for myself to not be ungrateful that I've been given a new life and a 2nd chance at life.

The idea that desire leads to further suffering, and that you should not give into desire to avoid future suffering, can feel threatening. Desire, before it honed in on heroin, alcohol or whatever your crutch was, is a very primitive force within us all. We desire food, sex, companionship, and there's good evidence to show that desire for intoxication or a suspended state away from reality is innate for us too. So to supress everything on a hunch that living the life of the humble man who structures his life around avoiding giving into desire...simple can easily become complex and neurotic!

I really think that you need to just transform your human desires into things that can better harmonize with your spirituality and your good health. You do not have to give up adrenaline rushes, partying, having fun, overwhelming your senses. You can still have a very crazy life, and even more, you can let your focus on these new and improved desires push your old desires to the things that caused you spiritual pain even further away. The push against intellectualizing, fantasy, psychological freedom and whatnot that you get in some recovery circles, it's really just a reflection of these themes in the miserable, shallow, materialist modern world than it is what is best for your recovery. You gotta do what makes you happy and confident, which, at least for me, is giving into desires that allow me to have fun and grow spiritually, and likely help others, rather than hurting them, at the same time.

You don't need to become homeless to learn what suffering is really about. Suffering is wanting what you cannot have. You already know what it's like to suffer. Being homeless would just be more of this. Additional suffering doesn't always lead to something positive. In fact, it can often send you into a state of confusion and desperation. Intentionally making yourself suffer to somehow make yourself grow is the last stage of insanity. Perhaps it's good to occasionally fast, spend periods alone or whatever, but the point where it becomes suffering instead of a rewarding effort, you've done it too long. Instead, you have to rid yourself of the desire to want the thing that you can't have. Right now for you, it's still a desire to be a recreational drinker. So look at this as the most difficult desire to remove/transform, and perhaps only one that you can handle after you've become a master with smaller ones. Similar to the 4th step in AA, perhaps you can make a list of everything you desire, and then mark which ones lead to spiritual benefit, and which ones lead to suffering and pain. Figure out why you're so attached to everything on that negative list, and what you may be able to find that is similar to those things, but could instead lead to spiritual fulfilment. When you can make major progress ridding yourself of unhealthy desire, you'll have also ridded yourself of a lot of your continued misery, which is precisely the reason why you want to relapse in the first place.
 
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Thank you RedLeader, I'm going to make that list. I'll have 6 months in a few day and nearly through it all away today. It started with me coming across the Cali-Heroin-Mega thread actually, and reading about people's adventures scoring on the street was A VERY BAD IDEA. Before I know it I'm spending 4-5 hours walking around the ghetto, asking homeless bums, gangsters, etc. And I guess I chose the wrong city because eventually I just got tired of it and gave up and drove home. I had the spoon, tin foil, lighter, cash in my pocket. I was going to use, wanted to use. So I came back and went to the gym and worked out then went to my commitment at the AA meeting and told my sponsor. He told me not to worry, it's what us addict/alcoholics do. His opinion was that it was my higher power protecting me, which I am slightly skeptical of but wish I wasn't. The lesson for me is: stick with the recovery threads/boards ONLY.
 
Ya, I know how that is. The whole acquisition of the drugs is way more exciting than the actual drugs themselves at times. It's like a primitive desire to go hunting in a rugged environment for something that will make us feel good and strong (even if just for a bit). It's exciting. So ya, like when I talk about transforming desire, break down what you think it is that makes you want to go through that process, and see if you cannot satisfy it some other way. Like, maybe actually go hunting!. Or go shopping for something you want (but might be hard to find). Go chase women. But like...when you try and supress it, well at least for me, it leads to something that feels like shame over your desires/impulses. And shame is never good for us. You gotta take ownership of your emotions and desires for what they are, but then latch it onto something else.

Not finding any H was your "higher power protecting you." So why exactly did the higher power not protect you at an earlier stage, say well before you were walking around talking to dangerous people about dangerous things...? "Because he works in mysterious ways!" Why would a benevolent, loving god put you through a situation that makes you feel sceptical and unconvinced that He had your best interests at heart? I'd argue that believing in illogical, unexplainable stuff like this is just as high of a stage of insanity as believing that you could use H successfully. I think that the higher-power stuff can make the intellectuals within AA/NA get overly-sceptical and possibly sabotage themselves by adding unnecessary stress.

And ya, the gym is a really good sanctuary. I know that for me, no matter how badly I crave H, when I get really focused on my gym goals, I start to see any drugs or alcohol as getting in the way of those goals, which is a bad thing. If I wasn't working out and didn't feel good about my body and like I had a lot to lose in this regard, it would be a lot harder to think my way out of the cravings. But like, being strong and healthy feels good and it attracts people to me. It satisfies what I was looking for in drugs - a way to feel good physically, but also calm my anxiety and whatnot to be able to talk with people and whatnot.

Like, the best thing you figure out in recovery is that there wasn't really anything fundamentally wrong with you in the first place. You just made poor choices as to how you satisfied your desires. AA/NA is going to call you and "addict" with a "disease" and all of that, which can get to your head and make you feel shame and like you're different from everybody else. But you'll get confidence if you can think of yourself as an animal on the planet that likes to feel good and does not like to feel bad, and you're learning through trial-and-error what is both pleasurable and sustainable, and what should be avoided. Do you think that people in society who are quick to label addicts and cast them out are really any better? No, they just have different vices. We're all human, we all crave what we don't have, we all want to feel better about ourselves and we all make mistakes.

Congrats on 6 months. You're actually about a month ahead of me, so you're an inspiration to me. I know it's not easy. But keep working out, don't put up with your sponsor if you don't want to, and just know that you control what happens tomorrow, the day after, and so on. If you want to believe that a higher power controls it, that's fine. But even so, you still have to "let him guide you" or whatever. If you really want to go out and get high, that higher power isn't going to do shit to stop you. He didn't in the past when you relapsed! You have all the potential inside of yourself to change your future and the futures of everyone around you for the better. When you fully realise this all, it's way more fulfilling than taking a leap of faith for something up in the sky.
 
Thanks for the update.. this thread was a great read. I don't even know what to say right now I just feel very surreal. Powerful thread.

I felt the addiction talking through you, justifying your actions. We've all felt that voice. I tell myself that no matter what my brain tries to tell me, I can't moderate. I can't because that is what makes us addicts. If the thought pops into my head I shut it down instantly and try to think about something else. NSA had a great point in another thread where he said that if you start to rationalize it then your addict brain will eventually convince you it's ok.

Thanks herb, I appreciate that. Yeah I had to come back to sobriety or be homeless and learn what suffering is really all about. Can you believe with almost 6 months of good clean time, the last few weeks I have been considering "going back out" once I get 6 months. This is a daily struggle and I can't stop thinking about using the money I've earned in sobriety to get some dope and just get absolutely lit.

One of the main driving forces to this kind of thinking is this: "I'm only 28, I'm too young to be sober for the rest of my life. What the fuck is that?" I swear lately it feels like I'm serving a prison sentence of sobriety. I guess I'm still waiting for myself to not be ungrateful that I've been given a new life and a 2nd chance at life.

It's frustrating to say the least. Like shit man I'm a male in my early-mid 20s and I can emphasize with this. But I just remind myself, "That's not my life anymore" and try to move on. The impracticalities of not being able to have a drink are far more annoying than expected but I have adjusted well I believe. It's difficult when EVERYONE drinks. But fuck that shit cause it isn't worth it.

But there is joy in other places.

So yeah you are going to be sober the rest of your life. It's scary. But sometimes embracing that fear just makes me realize how absolutely terrible of an idea it must be. My brain will say, "Drink a couple drinks because it will help you make friends." or "Drink a couple drinks because everyone else can do it and you deserve to relax." whereas I realize the truth of those statements being "Drink a couple drinks so when I ask you to drink again there will be less resistance. Slowly, I will break you with small rationalizations."

Fuck that short term relief of symptoms that isn't even relief. It just feels like it should be relief but then you get there and it's all a big myth and you just feel even worse.

I'm rambling now.. haha. I'm out. Super glad you are sober now.
 
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