Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine Mega Thread and FAQ v17.0 + v18.0

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Hah so on high doses like 16mg you'd be stuck waiting at least 3 days then huh? guess thats why I'm taking it, slipping up aint an option ;-)

Ha yup. You're better off, man.

 

[thugpassion]

.
any advice on taking short breaks from.subs to play with heroin and then going back on them?
if i take a super small dose like 0.5mg before i start shooting heroin can i dose my subs earlier without going into precipitated withdrawals?

Short breaks from bupe are okay maybe even fun at first but it can become a slipery slope, and the more you take "heroin vacations" the harder it becomes to keep switching back and forth between buprenorphine and heroin. i know Iv done it many times. but wish I never even knew what buprenorphine was but do to an heroin addiction its the best thing to come along yet.

 

[FordRiverFailed]

So I have a few questions, I'm around 12 days off of Suboxone, if you'd like to see my taper I have a thread in TDS. Anyway, the only reason mine is a bit complicated is that I was addicted for 3 years on and off.

I took suboxone to taper and get clean for 6 months to a year at a time (by clean I mean no suboxone, nothing), so I wasn't using for 3 years straight that's the point.

Currently, a family tragedy triggered a relapse for me that lasted about 4 months of hard core Opana abuse.Up to and possibly 50 mg a day, although not that much all the time.

Then I began maintaining on Suboxone. I'd say that I took 2 to 3 (never more, for some reason it's super effective on me) for about two months straight at the worst.

Then I began my taper, which is weird but I'll explain.

I switched to Opanas to taper, because I believed that the physical WDS would be shorter if I did so, and then just got on sub for the last week.

15mg in the morning, and at night for two days

7.5mg in the morning, and at night for two days

etc. until I was around 3mg each time (with the aid of diazepam at this point).

Now I did suboxone at .5, .24, and then crumbs every day going down.

That's it, here I am day 12 (I think, but pretty close, no relapse in between)

TL;DR: My question, is that I tapered down real low, but fast. Will that make my PAWs shorter?
Second question: My Dr. had me on a 30 mg of valium a day for 3 months, but I would go a week or two without it no problem, should I be worried about that addiction?

Thanks guys, I was reffered here from TDS,
-FRF

P.S. Hope everyone is doing well.

 

[BlueHues]

If you're feeling good, why question it? I've walked away with success and been fine 45 days later...high energy with a positive outlook...Don't just sit there and wait for the other shoe to drop, most of the "PAWS" thing is a big mind fuck...It's a real thing, but your mindset and the way you live plays a huge role!

Take a minute to give yourself credit for how far you've come...The worst is over buddy!

 

[FordRiverFailed]

If you're feeling good, why question it? I've walked away with success and been fine 45 days later...high energy with a positive outlook...Don't just sit there and wait for the other shoe to drop, most of the "PAWS" thing is a big mind fuck...It's a real thing, but your mindset and the way you live plays a huge role!

Take a minute to give yourself credit for how far you've come...The worst is over buddy!

Thanks BlueHues, I guess what I left out was the Gabapentin. The Dr said it would help, and I got some, but it puts me in such a fog. However, it allows me to sleep. Is that worth it? I guess that's up to me.

I have been feeling down and out but I mean hell I expect to for a while. Basically, should I be totally out of physical withdrawal from opiates by now based on my taper?

 

[BlueHues]

Nobody can say for sure..You still may have a fair amount of bupe in your system depending on your metabolism...Are you able to sleep? How do you feel? If you still feel fine 48 hours after the last bupe dose you took, I'd be optimistic....

 

[FordRiverFailed]

Nobody can say for sure..You still may have a fair amount of bupe in your system depending on your metabolism...Are you able to sleep? How do you feel? If you still feel fine 48 hours after the last bupe dose you took, I'd be optimistic....

Compared to the description of physical withdrawal from opiates, which I am well familiar with, I'm optimistic. I think what's coming out is my anxiety and insomnia, which I've had since I was a child.

I was studying pharmacy for quite some time. Half-life x 10 = Elemination half life x 2 (approx) = how long you should physically withdrawal. But that is only if you have been keeping it in you system constantly. I have not. My taper with bupe at the end was only around 5 days. So it wasn't in my system that long. That was actually my plan.

Sorry, didn't answer your questions:
1. I cannot sleep without Gabapentin or Alprazolam. Period.
2. I feel aches and pains, but nothing like I've felt in the past. No where near what I would call Acute Withdrawal. I've gotten clean off of everything 4 times now and this was by far the most gentle physically, just not sure about in my head.

Thank you for the quick response Blue Hues, hope all is well,
-FRF

UPDATE:
And I know no one can say for sure, I guess my question is a little pointless haha. As someone who's done this before, we all pay the piper and it's over when it's over.

-I wish you all well,
-FRF

 

[Animoe]

Is norbuprenorphine relative to the amount of buprenorphine that gets absorbed, or does it stay the same no matter the ROA?

i.e. If I were to take 2mg buprenorphine sublingually, X amount of norbuprenorphine would attach to the remaining receptors...
would I still get the same ratio of norbuprenorphine if I were to inject 2mg?

Because you get roughly 3x the amount of buprenorphine when injected as opposed to sublingually, would I be getting roughly 3x the amount of norbuprenorphine, or would all my receptors be saturated with the buprenorphine?

 

[RTrain]

^I would think the higher blood plasma levels of buprenorphine, the higher the plasma levels of norbuprenorhine. But we are just talking about plasma levels, which is not the only issue at hand. The problem with increasing bupe levels to increase norbupe is that with too much bupe the norbupe is being blocked more, as bupe has a higher affinity to the receptors than norbupe. Hence the idea that less is more, because less bupe leaves you open receptors for the norbupe to act on.

I have heard of this idea (never tried it)...you would just take the subs PO, this way you put the bupe through extensive first pass metabolism and create a whole bunch of norbupe and not enough bupe to bock the receptors. This has some theoretical value to it, but I don't hear people clamoring about how it works so well. I am sure if just swallowing a Sub got you a more euphoric high (even if it took a much higher dose) it would be well known and done often.

There is also the issue with norbupe's weak ability to cross the BBB, so there is argument to whether the amounts created in the metabolism of bupe have much effect at all.

Hah so on high doses like 16mg you'd be stuck waiting at least 3 days then huh? guess thats why I'm taking it, slipping up aint an option ;-)

Slipping up isn't an option for me either, but I just take 1.5-2 mg a day. And right now I could slip up with as little effort as standing up, taking 5 steps, and doing my thing.

But I do agree its better to keep the dose that high if you are really trying not to relapse. Its the only benefit to high doses and understandable why doctors use them for that reason. I just don't have a sub dr, so my supply is limited. I can't take 8 mg a day or its too damn expensive and I am not guaranteed the things, though I feel pretty confident I can obtain them now.

 

[PKPro]

Hey guys I've found myself in a tiny predicament recently, i was supposed to refill my script yesterday as i ran out the night before, unfortunately my pharmacy and all nearby ones had as well which means i will have to wait until tomorrow to refill my Zubs. If i had taken 16mg a day for a little under 2 months up until now how long will it take for me to withdraw? i tend to be at baseline when it comes to my metabolism, that is i do not process too fast or too slow. i've heard reports that i could be in withdrawal by the 2nd or 4th day... i just wanna know if ill be okay until tomorrow morning... any thoughts? (I'm a little over 24 hours now, i think i'm okay up until now)

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

at 16mg's a day, with a normal metabolism, you should be fine for at least 2-3 days before you start feeling any real symptoms. So I imagine you will be okay until you can pick up the script.

It's got a 36 hour average half-life, so at 16mg's a day for 2 months, the doses have been stacking for a while, so you have a good buildup of it in your system at this point. Realistically, it'd probably take you a good 4 or 5 days to really start to feel sick having been on that dosage for that long.

 

[Animoe]

The problem with increasing bupe levels to increase norbupe is that with too much bupe the norbupe is being blocked more, as bupe has a higher affinity to the receptors than norbupe. Hence the idea that less is more, because less bupe leaves you open receptors for the norbupe to act on.

That's what I meant, sorry my question was not really well worded.

But yeah that's what I thought too.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

hat about switching to an equipotent iv dosefor a few days before the intended break. (administered in 2-3 doses throughout the day). should allow built up subutex to clear the system and you should be good to dose 12-24 hours after last sub shot depending on dose.

we alll do agree that iv sub has much shorter half life yeah?

this is just theory, think it would work?

Withdrawal didn't go by any quicker so I venture a no; same half life. Shorter duration doesn't yield much mercy in terms of withdrawal for bupe specifically.

56 days clean off bupe for me; that's 8 weeks.

 

[Eveleivibe]

If you're feeling good, why question it? I've walked away with success and been fine 45 days later...high energy with a positive outlook...Don't just sit there and wait for the other shoe to drop, most of the "PAWS" thing is a big mind fuck...It's a real thing, but your mindset and the way you live plays a huge role!

Take a minute to give yourself credit for how far you've come...The worst is over buddy!

I LOVE this advice. And it really relates to a lot more than just PAWS because so often a person will be told something ie "You'll get PAWS n it's going to be horrondous," so the person waits for this horondous phase n makes a lot a lot worst than it is. I'm not saying that PAWS doesn't exist ( in fact I have a thread in TDS that NSA has helped me with, on PAWS). What I'm saying is that sometimes we will take something in our mind, believe it wholeheartedly that our mind makes it worst than what it is. Nothing wrong with researching PAWS n do forth but please don't sit around waiting for this "bad period" to come. Work on getting your life sorted, taking one step at a time n if you do get bad PAWS deal with it as it happens.

It hope this doesn't come across as harsh or offensive as its not intended to be. I just don't want to see someone suffer more than they have to.

Take care,

Evey xxxx

 

[RTrain]

The real issue seems to be determining when the PAWS period has ended, we all know it begins immediately after acute withdrawal. At one point your brain is done healing from the abuse you did to it with opiates(at least it has healed as much as possible, still a gray area of what irreversible effects are caused), but you might still feel depressed, tired, anhedonic, etc. This isn't going to go away by playing a waiting game and thinking you got PAWS, so in due time you will being to feel better. Its just wasting time to have that mindset and you're much better off seeking lifestyle changes, psychiatric counseling and maybe medication if the psychiatrist thinks it necessary. You should also do that while in the PAWS phase, because it will expedite the process, at least the lifestyle change part (i.e. exercise, healthy diet, improved social life, finding a hobby and such)

 

[Ziggy stardust]

I thought about going on antidepressants after detoxing off Sub/methadone. My shrink said he put most people on them for a year following detox. I really researched it and asked a lot of questions, and came to the conclusion that it's better to let your brain rewire and reright itself before adding any more chemicals. Healthy eating and adopting some sort of physical activity is helpful but I don't think chemicals are in the PAWS phase. It just makes more sense to me to leave things drug-free during the PAWS phase.

 

[Eveleivibe]

The real issue seems to be determining when the PAWS period has ended, we all know it begins immediately after acute withdrawal. At one point your brain is done healing from the abuse you did to it with opiates(at least it has healed as much as possible, still a gray area of what irreversible effects are caused), but you might still feel depressed, tired, anhedonic, etc. This isn't going to go away by playing a waiting game and thinking you got PAWS, so in due time you will being to feel better. Its just wasting time to have that mindset and you're much better off seeking lifestyle changes, psychiatric counseling and maybe medication if the psychiatrist thinks it necessary. You should also do that while in the PAWS phase, because it will expedite the process, at least the lifestyle change part (i.e. exercise, healthy diet, improved social life, finding a hobby and such)

Ace post. Agreed, RTrain!

PKPro having never withdrawed before I cannot say, sorry. From what I've read you may be ok or just on the brink of withdrawal. If it's two days I wouldn't worry though that's easier said than done. I personally think you'll be on but others will advise you best as they've been through the withdrawal process. Thinking of you n hoping you get through ok until your next script. Sorry I can't really help you further xxxx

 

[RTrain]

^Thanks

I thought about going on antidepressants after detoxing off Sub/methadone. My shrink said he put most people on them for a year following detox. I really researched it and asked a lot of questions, and came to the conclusion that it's better to let your brain rewire and reright itself before adding any more chemicals. Healthy eating and adopting some sort of physical activity is helpful but I don't think chemicals are in the PAWS phase. It just makes more sense to me to leave things drug-free during the PAWS phase.

Oh I agree there, for sure. Thats why I more emphasized the life style changes while in PAWS to be the main focus. In some cases a sleep aide might be beneficial, because adequate sleep will help the brain heal quicker. But I would not advise benzos or any other sleep aide that does not promote healthy sleep, as I believe they help knock you out but the REM sleep limited. And antidepressants are best to avoid, as well as using amphetamines to give energy. At least until you are pretty sure you tried the healthy life style approach and you gave yourself ample time to get through the PAWS.

 

[Ziggy stardust]

^Thanks



Oh I agree there, for sure. Thats why I more emphasized the life style changes while in PAWS to be the main focus. In some cases a sleep aide might be beneficial, because adequate sleep will help the brain heal quicker. But I would not advise benzos or any other sleep aide that does not promote healthy sleep, as I believe they help knock you out but the REM sleep limited. And antidepressants are best to avoid, as well as using amphetamines to give energy. At least until you are pretty sure you tried the healthy life style approach and you gave yourself ample time to get through the PAWS.

I've been taking Benadryl almost every night since I jumped in April. I rarely can sleep without it. It hasn't seemed to lost its effectiveness over time, but I would like to sleep without anything.
Do you know if Benadryl messes up REM sleep? Is it ok to take for months straight?

 

[bukweat]

Far too many times the paws were just the poin.t in my cycle of addiction when I would give myself permission to start using once again. Not that I was attempting anything other than a,tolerance break,etc,.
Now that I am attempting long-term sobriety the paws and getting completely through the phase is, well a somewhat new exp.
RTrain Is correct though. There's no reason to build it up to something it isn't.