Opiate and opioid withdrawal: Coping strategies and medication

[Sammy G]

I'm utterly astounded that you still get any kind of 'high' from subs to be honest! I couldn't get any buzz after a week or so, and it wasn't much of a buzz to begin with.

Im not sure if one of my keyworkers is a bit confused or mixed up, but she got me a bit concerened today about the dangers of multiple quit attempts and how hard it is on your body. Christ Im not disputing how hard it is, but its not actually dangerous in the same way that benzo cessation can be is it ?

Obviously you're placing a strain on your body and your nervous system, but no, it isn't dangerous in the way that alcohol / benzo withdrawal can be.

I think she's trying to persuade you to make a clean break to be honest.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Oh if i was to take 2mg, which im not, id be buzzed to fuck. Bupe seems to very much a YMMV thing. The sub 1mg doses dont get me high, but they give me energy. Like i say im gonna try to hold out for a while, ideally until christmas, have one final fling, and then not touch the stuff for a good while. Thats the tentative plan atm.

Is the strain on the nervous system and body mostly due to endorphins, in that the body stops producing its own as it doesnt think it needs to when opis are bombarding it with endorphins. And the main difficulty is waiting for your body and mind to start producing its own endorphins again ?

 

[Sammy G]

Oh if i was to take 2mg, which im not, id be buzzed to fuck. Bupe seems to very much a YMMV thing.

You think? I've never encountered anybody who can get anything from it after a few consecutive days' use. Let alone 'buzzed to fuck'! That's why it's a maintenance drug after all.

Is the strain on the nervous system and body mostly due to endorphins, in that the body stops producing its own as it doesnt think it needs to when opis are bombarding it with endorphins. And the main difficulty is waiting for your body and mind to start producing its own endorphins again ?

Endorphins will play a massive part, yeah.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

For me it didnt do the maintenance thing until i got below 1 mg. At those doses there was no high, and it was just weening me off the physical dependency.

 

[Shambles]

Is the strain on the nervous system and body mostly due to endorphins, in that the body stops producing its own as it doesnt think it needs to when opis are bombarding it with endorphins. And the main difficulty is waiting for your body and mind to start producing its own endorphins again ?

I've never been warned specifically about multiple w/d attempts being physically dangerous but could well believe they don't do you much good if you're constantly in w/d from one thing or another. It's gotta put a helluva strain on the system all that up and down, back and forth, inside and out stuff. Let alone the mental and emotional aspects. It's exhausting.

You raise a good point about waiting for "normal" brainchemistry function to kick in again, MDB. Can take a long time to get anywhere close to feeling like you barely remember you once used to feel. I'm told you get there in the end and you do (imo, ime, ymmv, etc, etc) but I've never quite managed to be completely free from any of my lil habits long enough at the same time to be absolutely sure it all comes back given fair chance. I'm fairly sure it does in all but the very most extreme of circumstances though. Problem really is just stringing together enough (completely) sober days to feel the benefit.

It's sounding like you've been struggling a lot more than I ever did with bupe so I'd best not say too much there as out mileage would appear to be rather varied, but even if I did find it a (relative - remember I've w/d from a gazillion different opies over the years to some extent or other so am comparing bupe w/d to a variety of others rather than as a thing in and of itself) doddle the fact that I felt completely back to myself (in terms of opi addiction or lack thereof, no lingering after-effects I noticed) should be pretty much universal given time.

If you've been struggling this much with bupe so far, MDB, might be worth reconsidering that last fling? Thing with w/d are that they get worse and worse each time you go around - the more times you put yourself in the position the harder it is to get back out from under

You think? I've never encountered anybody who can get anything from it after a few consecutive days' use. Let alone 'buzzed to fuck'! That's why it's a maintenance drug after all.

Well, technically you don't know me but we have disagreed on this point enough times for you to know that would come under varying mileage territory by now

But this is hardly the thread to discuss recreational potential or maintenance drugs so...

 

[mydrugbuddy]

aye im glad to have shambles tacit agreement on that point, last time i raised it sam and brimz were 'incredulous' is the word i think im looking for. Btw what is the difference between suboxone and subutex, i mean i know one has naloxone and one doesnt, but what difference does that make to the effects profile of the substances ?

I hear you about the its gets harder every time, but this hasnt been a long relapse of heavy doses, its been shorlived and low dosed. I guess that makes a little bit of difference, compared to quitting a habit that was heavier than last time round, this time its relatively just a few days. Also i'll be better prepared and will know what to expect this time round.

 

[Sammy G]

Well, technically you don't know me but we have disagreed on this point enough times for you to know that would come under varying mileage territory by now

But this is hardly the thread to discuss recreational potential or maintenance drugs so...

Yeah, you're right.

Put it this way though - full agonist or bupe? I think I know the answer to that.

aye im glad to have shambles tacit agreement on that point, last time i raised it sam and brimz were 'incredulous' is the word i think im looking for. Btw what is the difference between suboxone and subutex, i mean i know one has naloxone and one doesnt, but what difference does that make to the effects profile of the substances ?

Unless you're shooting suboxone, none. The naloxone is ineffective.

Even if you're shooting it, some people say none. Though it ain't a chance I'd want to take.

 

[Shambles]

Makes no difference to effects profile at all from all I've seen, MDB. Seems to just be added to appease some official somewhere. Don't take my word on this but memory is telling me that bupe attaches itself to your happy receptors much more effectively than naloxone does so the naloxone essentially never registers in your system. Bit like musical chairs: there's never any receptors left for poor ol' naloxone to sit and bind to so they go home and sulk instead.

 

[Sammy G]

I'm pretty sure appeasing some official is the answer.

Either that or it was a neat little selling point for a pharma company who wanted to patent a new, 'non-abusable' maintenance drug for the junkies, because we can't entertain the possibility of them having fun.

Probably both!

 

[mydrugbuddy]

so the main point was to make it even more impossible / pointless to take additional opis on top?

Naloxone is weird then, so it knocks all opis off their receptors apart from Bupe ?

 

[Shambles]

Yeah, you're right.

Put it this way though - full agonist or bupe? I think I know the answer to that.

Horses/courses, innit. Bupe is actually one of my fave opies as is. Have always liked the clear--headed, stimmy ones. Nodding is great but I don't wanna be nodding all the time. Bupe gives me energy and generally keeps me feeling kinda perky. It's also one of the best as far as analgesia goes (imo, ime, ymmv, etc, etc). I'd rather take bupe daily than morphine daily anyway. Same for heroin too if I'm totally honest. Heroin stopped getting me high long before bupe...erm... hasn't yet. But I honestly don't get fukked on opies often these days. If I did I'd probably treat myself to some gear or oxy or summat but really don't wanna be going down the regular recreational opies route again.

For somebody in my position ("history" but in need of proper painkillers at times) bupe is brilliant cos I have no desire or urge to abuse it, it means I can't fuck about with other opies unless I plan for it specifically, works brilliantly for pain relief. I have no complaints. That's just me and my situation though. I wouldn't fancy a black market habit which may account for at least some of the differences in experience with bupe? It's very much a YMMV drug though and always has been.

Oh, and I also wouldn't go injecting it naloxone or no naloxone. It would appear it works just fine IV'd but if you've never had a chance to take time to read through the bupe injection complications thread (can't recall the exact title but was a sticky in OD for a while, I think) then you really need to before even thinking about IVing the stuff. Some of the ingredients present extreme IV risks above and beyond even "normal" extreme IV risks from shooting pills. Very much in losing limbs if you're lucky territory. Sniff or podger if you are so inclined but stay well away from needles when it comes to Subbiez. Some of those pics tend to linger in mind dontcha know

both!

Fix'd

 

[Sammy G]

so the main point was to make it even more impossible / pointless to take additional opis on top?

Well, buprenorphine already does that.

The main purpose of suboxone was to deter IV injection, but the science was bad to begin with.

Oh, and I also wouldn't go injecting it naloxone or no naloxone. It would appear it works just fine IV'd but if you've never had a chance to take time to read through the bupe injection complications thread (can't recall the exact title but was a sticky in OD for a while, I think) then you really need to before even thinking about IVing the stuff. Some of the ingredients present extreme IV risks above and beyond even "normal" extreme IV risks from shooting pills. Very much in losing limbs if you're lucky territory. Sniff or podger if you are so inclined but stay well away from needles when it comes to Subbiez. Some of those pics tend to linger in mind dontcha know

I'll bear that in mind. Thanks. 8(

I know what you're saying about liking bupe - it's fantastic for functioning and staying 'high' for a long time. And regarding the pain thing, I imagine it's far better than most other options.

I just look for something a little different with opies though. Possibly because I still look at things the way a dabbler would, rather than from the practical viewpoint of a daily user.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Yeah, you're right.

Put it this way though - full agonist or bupe? I think I know the answer to that.



Unless you're shooting suboxone, none. The naloxone is ineffective.

Even if you're shooting it, some people say none. Though it ain't a chance I'd want to take.

bupe is a full agonist though isnt it, as well as being an antagonist if you take more than 32mg

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Well, buprenorphine already does that.

The main purpose of suboxone was to deter IV injection, but the science was bad to begin with.

ah i see thanks, i have no intention of injecting. Thats one line Im never going to cross.

Are you still taking bupe daily now shambles if you dont mind me asking ? And does it still deliver the perkiness after taking it for a considerable time, or do you need to increase the dose ? I dont intend to take it for a lomg time, just curious. Sorry if the questions are bordering on nosey/rude. Please pm me if its a private matter, and i wont tell a soul.

 

[Sammy G]

bupe is a full agonist though isnt it, as well as being an antagonist if you take more than 32mg

Nope, it's only a partial agonist.

ah i see thanks, i have no intention of injecting. Thats one line Im never going to cross.

Good. Just try and stick to that.

If you'd ever taken street heroin, you might know that it's all too possible to change your mind easily once it starts to become stupidly expensive. It's easy to say 'never', but far more difficult to stick to it.

 

[Shambles]

Are you still taking bupe daily now shambles if you dont mind me asking ? And does it still deliver the perkiness after taking it for a considerable time, or do you need to increase the dose ? I dont intend to take it for a lomg time, just curious. Sorry if the questions are bordering on nosey/rude. Please pm me if its a private matter, and i wont tell a soul.

That's actually a very slightly complicated question currently, but for the sake of simplicity I'll stick with just a plain "Yes, I am still taking daily". Obviously, over time, the dose you take daily doesn't feel exactly as it did first few times round. However, I'm genuinely not looking for "recreational" effects (at least most days I'm not ) so it's no problem to me. I may not feel borderline rushy when I take my daily dose now (as I still do at the "right" dose if I so choose) but I still feel pretty damn good. And, more to the point, I don't seem to be losing on analgesic effects which is the main issue. It's the only opi I've tried where I can truly stick to a daily dose and not need worry about escalating. If anything I tend to prefer to reduce bupe doses rather than raise them whenever possible. I suspect I may be on too high a dose at the moment, in fact, cos have been getting some somewhat undesirable (if not actually really unpleasant) effects that seem to crop up when you're actual requirement is less than you are taking and your body seems to go into a weird agonist/antagonist/agonist/antagonist/agon... feedback loop where you almost put yourself into mild w/d each time you dose... sort of. I think I need to discuss with prescribing doc next time I see him anyway.

And feel free to ask me anything you like about bupe. Isn't nosey or rude - is an HR forum where such things have some relevance. Just bear in mind that I can only speak to my own, personal experience and what I have seen/heard around and about and may or may not be recalling accurately. You're welcome to PM but, to be perfectly honest, I'm probably more likely to reply in timely fashion in a thread :D

 

[Shambles]

I know what you're saying about liking bupe - it's fantastic for functioning and staying 'high' for a long time. And regarding the pain thing, I imagine it's far better than most other options.

I just look for something a little different with opies though. Possibly because I still look at things the way a dabbler would, rather than from the practical viewpoint of a daily user.

Yup. Really does depend what you're looking for. It probably wouldn't be my first choice of "street" opi if I were buying rather than scripted, no. For the purpose(s) it's intended for it really is a lil beauty though

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Ive never taken street heroin or even silk road heroin for that matter. Ive said this before, but my gut instinct tells me with no doubt it would be game over for me if i did. Maybe if one day i find out ive only got 6 months to live or win the lottery or something if i live to be 80 or something then i would, but otherwise I have no doubt it would just consume my life from the inside out. There are other areas of life id like to live to explore before i reach that stage.

Bupe seems to work better than anything else ive tried as a functional anti depressant for me. That kind of complicates the situation.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

That's actually a very slightly complicated question currently, but for the sake of simplicity I'll stick with just a plain "Yes, I am still taking daily". Obviously, over time, the dose you take daily doesn't feel exactly as it did first few times round. However, I'm genuinely not looking for "recreational" effects (at least most days I'm not ) so it's no problem to me. I may not feel borderline rushy when I take my daily dose now (as I still do at the "right" dose if I so choose) but I still feel pretty damn good. And, more to the point, I don't seem to be losing on analgesic effects which is the main issue. It's the only opi I've tried where I can truly stick to a daily dose and not need worry about escalating. If anything I tend to prefer to reduce bupe doses rather than raise them whenever possible. I suspect I may be on too high a dose at the moment, in fact, cos have been getting some somewhat undesirable (if not actually really unpleasant) effects that seem to crop up when you're actual requirement is less than you are taking and your body seems to go into a weird agonist/antagonist/agonist/antagonist/agon... feedback loop where you almost put yourself into mild w/d each time you dose... sort of. I think I need to discuss with prescribing doc next time I see him anyway.

And feel free to ask me anything you like about bupe. Isn't nosey or rude - is an HR forum where such things have some relevance. Just bear in mind that I can only speak to my own, personal experience and what I have seen/heard around and about and may or may not be recalling accurately. You're welcome to PM but, to be perfectly honest, I'm probably more likely to reply in timely fashion in a thread :D

Cheers for the info. Yeah i gather bupe has a ceiling effect / dose response curve, so that if you take more than your own personal ceiling dose then not only does it just not have any additional or stronger positive effects but actually starts working as an antagonist, and would be putting you into w/d if you exceed your ceiling. I dont know the details of the bilogical or chemical reasons for this, but i dont need to know them really, its good enough for me to know that is what can happen, the hows and whys of it dont really concern me too much.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

I dont believe it. Ive actually just spoken to a doctor that had a heart, and who thought that the decsion by the local clinic to decline me buprenorphine treatment and left me to my own devices to source my own was rather harsh. She has offered me the opportunity to drop off a urine sample that would test for bupe. I really dont know what to do now though, I know its just delaying the inevitable, i just have to stop taking it, one way or another.

If i was to get a proper prescription, i think i know how it would go, ive allready done my own taper, i just failed to hold out at the end. I suppose getting a prescription would allow to me taper more comfortably than its otherwise gonna be. But as Ive only been back on it for a couple of weeks Im probably better off not doing that. 0.4 seems to be holding me ok today, so im lucky that i dont seem to have raised my tolerance much and havent got too far to come down. I think all this waffle has helped me make up my own mind to just stick it out, on my own, i think. 8(

I could cheat and take my entire supply before the test, but i dont think its in my own best interests to do that. As Ive found that 0.4 holds me the logical thing to do next is to start taking 0.2 every day from tomorrow onwards until i adjust to that. That will work out just about perfectly considering how much i have. I was gonna try just stopping cold turkey today, but i cant handle that, i think i'm lucky that I'm OK on just 0.4, so im still just a couple of steps away from getting off it. (And staying off it.)