The EADD Metathread - "HR approach to dangerous drugs" branch

[knock]

Aye, dont start going sam-style modding, hate to say it mr G but you had a certain way of moderating things that you didn't like/agree with, caused much uproar if I remember rightly.

Flamebait!


but unflamed. phew!

 

[Si Dread]

I really do not love it. I do enjoy EADD, but I really don't enjoy moderating. Nor do I enjoy being moderated. I much prefer being a plain old active member.

You've got a thankless task mate... & you definitely read more posts than I do.

I am not generally the sort to start telling people what to do. I'll offer advice & step away, which is what I would've done if Knock hadn't made it a thread. Now I find myself coming on to defend my opinions in exactly the way I intended to avoid having to do. The only reason I'm saying what I'm saying is because I've seen EADD lose too many people recently & I don't wanna stay in here, watching people destroy themselves & not be able to say anything coz it's beyond the scope of EADDs aproach to HR.

While drugs remain illegal opiates are the most dangerous. I don't care how anyone else chooses to address adiction &/or dangerous drugs use, but I would like to advise people that the single greatest step to reducing the harms caused by drugs is to NOT take them. If saying that to counter-balance all the more obvious & accepted HR advice somehow upsets dangerous drugs users or their supporters or anyone, so be it. If I feel as I do now, that I am in the minority, I'm not going to kick & scream about it. I would never have made a thread about it myself, I'd simply take my sad old opinions somewhere they'd be more useful.

 

[Sammy G]

I don't wanna stay in here, watching people destroy themselves & not be able to say anything coz it's beyond the scope of EADDs aproach to HR.

There's nothing in 'EADD's approach to HR' that's stopping you from saying anything.

I don't care how anyone else chooses to address adiction &/or dangerous drugs use, but I would like to advise people that the single greatest step to reducing the harms caused by drugs is to NOT take them. If saying that to counter-balance all the more obvious & accepted HR advice somehow upsets dangerous drugs users or their supporters or anyone, so be it.

Again, you're perfectly free to promote your own idea of 'harm reduction', as long as you're not contravening the BLUA.

 

[knock]

Si, I'm sorry if you feel that I've somehow brought unwanted exposure to you. That's not my intention.

I'm just interested in the discussion, which I think is important, and you happen to have raised it, so that's just circumstance.

I think it's a shame you feel that "defending" your opinions is something you don't want to do. Firstly, I don't think it should be about defence. I think it should be about putting forth the arguments and coming to a view based on the merits of the arguments. Sometimes our sense of self worth gets connected with the views we express and defending the views becomes like defending ourselves. I think that's an unfortunate fact of life and my own approach is to try to disconnect my sense of self worth from the views and if the views I express are clearly wrong, it shouldn't mean I think less of myself for accepting that and changing my views.

In that spirit, I think you're right: "the single greatest step to reducing the harms caused by drugs is to NOT take them". This is a fair thing to say.

It's just that, having said that, and accepting that telling people not to take drugs does not often work, the next greatest step to reducing the harms is to provide the information people need to take them in more safe ways.

 

[wcote]

Mental Health is the most neglected topic on Bluelight.

If people were in a better head space would they really take stupid amounts / combinations which have lead to deaths?

I have no idea just making a pretty general point.

 

[knock]

Maybe just a highlight in red (like the *snip* for removal of sourcing links) to highlight dangerous combinations for people just lurking or newer members?

by having a moderator edit a post with a little "This is not advisable - please consult Erowid vaults for more information" much like the *snip* for sourcing, but am conscious that it'd be a lot of work and others might not be in favour of it. That's fine, but I'd like to see others opinions on how to make this forum a safer place for regulars and non-regulars alike, rather than simply saying 'we're doing alright as we are'.

OK Thing is, the moderators are just people, we're not specially trained, we do have some knowledge, but the members often have more. As I've said elsewhere, I don't think the moderator role is about being an HR guru. It's about keeping order. This is the problem I see with your idea. It would work very well if we were specially trained, but we're not. Also, I don't think we should be. Trained people very often have inadequate knowledge. Not always, but even the best professionals have gaps in their knowledge. This is why discussion is so useful, because there are people out there amongst our members who know stuff.

I think the current implementation of a "discussion forum" here on BL is very inadequate, in terms of the software and what it allows. I would prefer something which gave more power to members to do this sort of thing, in some nuanced way, but at the moment I don't feel it's very likely that anything will change. We can barely keep the server from being "too busy". And it's hard work getting people to even think that things could be different! I have thoughts about improving the technologies for discussion forums, and in fact there already exist better technologies, so I might work on that a bit.

 

[Si Dread]

Si, I'm sorry if you feel that I've somehow brought unwanted exposure to you. That's not my intention.

I'm just interested in the discussion, which I think is important, and you happen to have raised it, so that's just circumstance.

I think it's a shame you feel that "defending" your opinions is something you don't want to do. Firstly, I don't think it should be about defence. I think it should be about putting forth the arguments and coming to a view based on the merits of the arguments. Sometimes our sense of self worth gets connected with the views we express and defending the views becomes like defending ourselves. I think that's an unfortunate fact of life and my own approach is to try to disconnect my sense of self worth from the views and if the views I express are clearly wrong, it shouldn't mean I think less of myself for accepting that and changing my views.

In that spirit, I think you're right: "the single greatest step to reducing the harms caused by drugs is to NOT take them". This is a fair thing to say.

It's just that, having said that, and accepting that telling people not to take drugs does not often work, the next greatest step to reducing the harms is to provide the information people need to take them in more safe ways.

... & if that was all that was needed we would not be losing people all the time. We need to up our game. Just my opinion. I do not know what to do, I just know what I feel we should not do, which is use HR as cover to condone or ignore foolish drugs use or addiction.

.. & no worries man, you know I love you & everybody here & it breaks my heart to have be a cunt like this? I really do have peoples best interests, their lives & their health, in mind here & if it were my choice I might, even temporarilly, sacrfice some of the freedoms we enjoy at EADD if I thought it might help preserve life & health.

 

[knock]

... & if that was all that was needed we would not be losing people all the time. We need to up our game. Just my opinion. I do not know what to do, I just know what I feel we should not do, which is use HR as cover to condone or ignore foolish drugs use or addiction.

.. & no worries man, you know I love you & everybody here & it breaks my heart to have be a cunt like this? I really do have peoples best interests, their lives & their health, in mind here & if it were my choice I might, even temporarilly, sacrfice some of the freedoms we enjoy at EADD if I thought it might help preserve life & health.

You're not being a cunt :D

Let me make this point again:

People are often suicidal or feel they have no future. This often has nothing to do with them taking drugs! Except that they sometimes use drugs, deliberately, to blot things out, and sometimes to harm or kill themselves. And sometimes the connection is not so direct, sometimes it's just that they don't care enough about themselves to take care of themselves, and nothing we say or do here will make a blind bit of difference.

I've raised this point several times. No-one seems to pay any attention to it More specifically, you don't seem to. I suppose some people agree, tacitly. And others disagree tacitly.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Knock, if you dont enjoy moderating you dont have to do it. I trust that even if you dont actively enjoy the thankless task then you are at least recognising and appreciating your own efforts, as you put a lot of work into it. If you are not finding it rewarding in any way, despite the good job you are doing, then it must be very frustrating.

 

[knock]

Knock, if you dont enjoy moderating you dont have to do it. I trust that even if you dont actively enjoy the thankless task then you are at least recognising and appreciating your own efforts, as you put a lot of work into it. If you are not finding it rewarding in any way, despite the good job you are doing, then it must be very frustrating.

I don't want to be a moderator, and I don't want to be subject to moderators. I do want to discuss drugs, harm reduction, and have general chit chat with you lot. I'm unclear about what I'm going to do about this. My preferred outcome would be a whole new improved Bluelight which distributes the responsibility for keeping order amongst it's general member base. It's something I've been thinking about for a long time, maybe I will actually do something about it and build a system which I can show to people. But maybe I won't do that :D I was hoping to get other people interested in the idea, so that it wouldn't have to be all my work, but it's really hard getting people to imagine things being different!

 

[Sammy G]

People are often suicidal or feel they have no future. This often has nothing to do with them taking drugs! Except that they sometimes use drugs, deliberately, to blot things out, and sometimes to harm or kill themselves. And sometimes the connection is not so direct, sometimes it's just that they don't care enough about themselves to take care of themselves, and nothing we say or do here will make a blind bit of difference.

I agree with the above. And I think it's important to remember that as sad as it is to have members of the community die, there's no evidence whatsoever that BL could have made any difference in any of the deaths. Or even (in most cases) that drug use was a decisive factor.

We can speculate, sure, but speculation isn't sufficient grounds for any kind of action.

 

[Marmalade]

Quit and give me the modstick then. You know it makes sense.

I don't really care what the consensus is on improving HR, as long as we open up the discussion in the first place!

LAWDY!

QUICK KNOCKERS!! Get a Mod vote on the go behind the scenes and vote thee squirrel in while he's up for it before he changes his mind!

I wish to be under the Squirrel ;p

But then you stay too ... perfect Mod Team

[edit]

and all this chat is ten times better than the cloak and dagger nonsense of yore. Love it

 

[Si Dread]

You're not being a cunt :D

Let me make this point again:

People are often suicidal or feel they have no future. This often has nothing to do with them taking drugs! Except that they sometimes use drugs, deliberately, to blot things out, and sometimes to harm or kill themselves. And sometimes the connection is not so direct, sometimes it's just that they don't care enough about themselves to take care of themselves, and nothing we say or do here will make a blind bit of difference.

I've raised this point several times. No-one seems to pay any attention to it More specifically, you don't seem to. I suppose some people agree, tacitly. And others disagree tacitly.

Okay, sure sorry, I've got this, I understand. Let me rephrase coz writing it out again will help my recall. If someone wants to fuck themselves up or die on drugs, or cares so little about themselves to do whatever drugs or booze they can get hold of to numb the pain of life, of course, there is NOTHING anyone can do. If people like that, or anyone with money or emotional problems don't have the support network in real life, family, friends, no amount of internet HR is going to help them. I agree & accept this completely.

But that does not address the question of what we might do to deal with this kind of behaviour by people who deliberately log onto Bluelight, a drugs Harm Reduction & information website, to post about it? Do we not warn people who might be simply enjoying themselves to death because they might've made a concious decision to do so? Life & health are more valuable than our ideals & I think we need to adapt.

 

[knock]

Thank you Si

But that does not address the question of what we might do to deal with this kind of behaviour by people who deliberately log onto Bluelight, a drugs Harm Reduction & information website, to post about it? Do we not warn people who might be simply enjoying themselves to death because they might've made a concious decision to do so? Life & health are more valuable than our ideals & I think we need to adapt.

I'm sorry, I'm not quite clear. did you omit a "not" in the bolded sentence? Because if the sentence is as you intended, it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Sammy G]

But that does not address the question of what we might do to deal with this kind of behaviour by people who deliberately log onto Bluelight, a drugs Harm Reduction & information website, to post about it? Do we not warn people who might be simply enjoying themselves to death because they might've made a concious decision to do so? Life & health are more valuable than our ideals & I think we need to adapt.

What do you actually propose?

I'm not being difficult here; I've just read similar vague assertions from you several times.

Nobody disagrees with the essential principle of what you're saying, but you've not offered anything in the way of practical suggestions. Or indeed identified any problems with the way EADD currently operates. Other than suggesting that there are cliques of dangerous drug users present.

 

[Si Dread]

should we NOT tell people not to do dangerous things because they might have chosen to do them & we must respect peoples right to choose to destroy themselves? That probably sounds worse... Because I would've thought that posting about it at a HR forum might be a call for help & might be one we're missing because we focus too much on being PC about drugs.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

I don't want to be a moderator, and I don't want to be subject to moderators. I do want to discuss drugs, harm reduction, and have general chit chat with you lot. I'm unclear about what I'm going to do about this. My preferred outcome would be a whole new improved Bluelight which distributes the responsibility for keeping order amongst it's general member base. It's something I've been thinking about for a long time, maybe I will actually do something about it and build a system which I can show to people. But maybe I won't do that :D I was hoping to get other people interested in the idea, so that it wouldn't have to be all my work, but it's really hard getting people to imagine things being different!

'Keeping order' amongst a community of drug users where some of them have mental health issues and some other people are very ferocious in their arguments is allways going to be an extremely difficult balancing act. Ideally everyone regulates themselves and there have been periods where this has happened mostly successfully. When things start getting out of hand though, unfortunately it seems to need a number of strong voices to settle things down. I dont think everyone is going to agree whatever ideas are put forward, no matter how sensible they may sound to some, others are gonna have differing opinions.

 

[Sammy G]

should we NOT tell people not to do dangerous things because they might have chosen to do them & we must respect peoples right to choose to destroy themselves?

Has anybody suggested that? If so, I've not read the post in question.

because we focus too much on being PC about drugs.

Is there a politically correct angle on drugs?

Being an inclusive community entails welcoming all kinds of drug users. Again, what do you actually propose? Exclusivity?

If so, who do we exclude?

 

[mydrugbuddy]

should we NOT tell people not to do dangerous things because they might have chosen to do them & we must respect peoples right to choose to destroy themselves? That probably sounds worse... Because I would've thought that posting about it at a HR forum might be a call for help & might be one we're missing because we focus too much on being PC about drugs.

From what ive seen whenever anyone has proposed anything dangerous there has allways been at least one if not several responses to that effect. If someone is hellbent on injecting heroin ar taking an uncharted dose of etaqualone, or someone with mental health issues is considering taking a psychedelic for example there has allways been lots of sensible advice given. I dont think theres a problem here. The deaths on here this year have not been down to members encouraging each other to push their limits or due to any lack of concern, they have happened despite EADDs concern not because of it IMO.

 

[Si Dread]

The deaths on here this year have not been down to members encouraging each other to push their limits or due to any lack of concern, they have happened despite EADDs concern not because of it IMO.

I agree but I'm worried I'm wrong. I fear there are too many who just go along with dangerous behaviour, & not enough advising against it. This is my argument.

Being an inclusive community entails welcoming all kinds of drug users. Again, what do you actually propose? Exclusivity?

If so, who do we exclude?

I'm not proposing anything. I'm trying to narrow down the problem before I worry about a cure.

There's seems to be a PC angle to HR which says you're not allowed to tell people that the best way to avoid the dangers of drugs is to not take them. To express concern that people might be harming themselves is discouraged on the grounds that they are individuals who have chosen their own paths. I accept this. It's as legitimate as my view, which is that such a position might be bringing it's own harms. Just my opinion.