The EADD Metathread - "HR approach to dangerous drugs" branch

[Pagey]

Oh for fuck's sake. Am I seriously being taken as an example here?

Really brilliant coming back to the forum after being away for a month just to have people talking about my irresponsibility without actually asking me about it.
You know OTW, for someone who's apparently so focused on helping people, you really might realise how untactful it is to do that considering I've just returned after one of my best friends committed suicide.

If you actually wanted to help you'd think twice about using me as an example of reckless idiotic behaviour considering the frame of mind I'm in these days. And it's not as if I've made a secret of that frame of mind.
And that's ignoring the fact that you know what, considering my life at the moment, I'm doing a fucking great job with limiting my negative drug use.

So yeah. Cheers for that.

Edit: OTW, just to be clear, I actually normally like you quite a lot. But I think you do seriously need to take a look at yourself sometimes when it comes to your approach to HR. This, for instance, was the worst possible way to deal with it.

 

[knock]

Being a relatively infrequent user of the site and a pretty piss poor drug user to boot, I do think EADD does somewhat lack in practicing the HR it preaches. This may be my own fault for not using any other branch of Bluelight, but I do often think there is little in the way of people voicing their concerns when risky/addictive behaviours are talked about.

EADD is a discussion forum. It doesn't practise HR. It is a website where we, you, me, everyone else, gets together and talks. EADD just enables us to talk. We, the members, are supposed to practise HR, and preach HR.

I am not an adviser. I do not provide an advice service. I'm just another human being. If you think that there are cases where someone should have spoken up and they haven't, you have to look to yourself. Why did you not speak up?

The idea of a forum is that all the people who are members, contribute. We get together and talk, to share experience and knowledge. So your comment seems a bit... inappropriate :D

If you're saying "come on people, do a bit better!" then fair enough. However, there are better ways to encourage desired behaviours than saying "this is a bit lacking". You could set an example.

I have no doubt that the majority of users we interact with on a daily basis here are clued up, and to point Knock I appreciate what you're saying about people choosing to take the risks, but I think it overlooks what I assume is a large greenlighter/lurker userbase who may not spend as much time on here as others.

Well, I think the important thing, when it comes to those who don't post much or who aren't even registered members, is that those of us who do post, try to make sure the information that is available here is good information.

 

[RLP]

I do try and set an example when I'm not wildly firing off about being a toff.

And I'm not having a go at you Knock, nor am I expecting you to be the sole shaman of HR on here, it's up to everyone. There's some merit suggesting that EADD being just a discussion forum which doesn't practice HR, but that goes against the ethos of Bluelight as a whole and why many of us sign up to this wonderful site in the first place.

I'm not having a pop at you, nor drug use in general, but I do think there are certain occasions on a public forum whereby some dangerous drug use is perhaps not encouraged but at least tolerated. EADD should align with the wider Bluelight HR strategy, or simply rename itself EAD and have moderators remove all talk of drugs (full time job awaits LOL).

 

[masaz]

I think we could align a bit further with the rest of the site in this regard, yeah. Wouldn't wanna go the way of the Lounge and its no drug talk rule because what would that achieve here really. I can see why it works for TL but we're a smaller community. Maybe just reinforcing an approach of thinking about what you SHOULD do, rather than what you WOULD do when giving other people advice is a good idea? And then if you get the members that are insistent they're gonna shoot smack or go mad on the booze and benzos or whatever, then you go down the route of advising them how to do so safely (if that's possible in any given situation) or pointing them to other parts of the site that cover it in better detail, whether it's with regard to safe practice or why it's a terrible fucking idea.

 

[Sammy G]

I do think there are certain occasions on a public forum whereby some dangerous drug use is perhaps not encouraged but at least tolerated.

How do you think such dangerous drug use should be handled then? Serious question. Do we ban people for mentioning hard drug use, for example? If not, what do we do? Ostracise the individuals involved? Lecture them until they don't want to be around anymore?

A lot depends on exactly what we consider to be 'dangerous' too. There's an awful lot of room for interpretation there.


There are limits to what an internet forum can actually do, and there's no concrete proof whatsoever that any 'pro HR' action that might be taken will have any effect whatsoever on those who may choose to use drugs recklessly, beyond making them reluctant to share their feelings and experiences with the rest of BL.

What we do know for a fact is that this forum has provided valuable support and encouragement to many people going through difficult times who may be tempted to indulge in dangerous drug use.

Perhaps we should look at what forums can realistically achieve before we become a community of sanctimonious busybodies.

 

[RLP]

How do you think such dangerous drug use should be handled then? Serious question. Do we ban people for mentioning hard drug use, for example? If not, what do we do? Ostracise the individuals involved? Lecture them until they don't want to be around anymore?

A lot depends on exactly what we consider to be 'dangerous' too. There's an awful lot of room for interpretation there.


There are limits to what an internet forum can actually do, and there's no concrete proof whatsoever that any 'pro HR' action that might be taken will have any effect whatsoever on those who may choose to use drugs recklessly, beyond making them reluctant to share their feelings and experiences with the rest of BL.

What we do know for a fact is that this forum has provided valuable support and encouragement to many people going through difficult times who may be tempted to indulge in dangerous drug use.

Perhaps we should look at what forums can realistically achieve before we become a community of sanctimonious busybodies.

I don't know. Willing to listen to ideas if anyone else thinks the forum is a light touch on HR. Maybe just a highlight in red (like the *snip* for removal of sourcing links) to highlight dangerous combinations for people just lurking or newer members? Just an idea, albeit more mod work, sorry Knock. I'm aware that seasoned members on here won't give a shit but this is a public forum, not a private one, HR isn't just for the clique. There can be a middle ground between doing nothing and ostracising people. You're being disingenuous here, but I'll let you off because you're being bullied in another thread.

FWIW I think BL and EADD does a whole world of good for many people, but that doesn't mean there can never be improvements, nor does wanting to achieve that mean I or others who think the same are busybodies.

 

[Sammy G]

FWIW I think BL and EADD does a whole world of good for many people, but that doesn't mean there can never be improvements, nor does wanting to achieve that mean I or others who think the same are busybodies.

Hang about. I'm not suggesting people who want to improve things are busybodies. I'm saying that there's a danger the forum could turn into a community of sanctimonious busybodies, if any 'pro HR' measures aren't carefully thought out, and their potential impact upon the dynamics of the board carefully considered.

I appears that we're in agreement that there's not much more that can actually be done to discourage dangerous drug use without running the risk of being counterproductive.

On the other hand, there appears to be a contingent who object to the mere presence of hard drug users. Which personally I find very difficult to understand.

 

[RLP]

Hang about. I'm not suggesting people who want to improve things are busybodies. I'm saying that there's a danger the forum could turn into a community of sanctimonious busybodies, if any 'pro HR' measures aren't carefully thought out...

Which is why in my originally response to this thread I suggested we needed to encourage discussion on the matter, not shut it out!

There's a lot of smart people on this forum and facilitating debate on the issue is a step forward. Not just on HR I may add, but on all topics which affect the usergroup here, but I'm digressing now.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Looks like she's taking your advise to heart
)

sorry to rake over this when pagey is obviously a bit annoyed at being used as an exmple and talked about in the 3rd person, but you have really slanted what actually happened with that quoute by the way youve edited it. Shambles went on to edit his advice once he remembered pagey was on a snri, and i advised her that she would only experience butterflies and stimulation and that the mdma would not work. Pageys reply may have been different if shambles edit was in there the first time round.

 

[knock]

I do try and set an example when I'm not wildly firing off about being a toff.

And I'm not having a go at you Knock, nor am I expecting you to be the sole shaman of HR on here, it's up to everyone. There's some merit suggesting that EADD being just a discussion forum which doesn't practice HR, but that goes against the ethos of Bluelight as a whole and why many of us sign up to this wonderful site in the first place.

I'm not having a pop at you, nor drug use in general, but I do think there are certain occasions on a public forum whereby some dangerous drug use is perhaps not encouraged but at least tolerated. EADD should align with the wider Bluelight HR strategy, or simply rename itself EAD and have moderators remove all talk of drugs (full time job awaits LOL).

I don't think you've read my post properly. Forums generally do not practise HR, they enable discussion. Do you see? Even a forum called "harm reduction forum" couldn't possibly practise HR because forums don't take drugs.

What I'm saying is the responsibilitiy for preaching and practising HR lies with the members, not the forum. The forum is a piece of software.

Is this getting through :D

 

[Shambles]

Ack. This is really frustrating cos there's quite a lot I want to say but really not the best time to be trying to put down some thoughts and feelings on the matter, but given it is a thing that means rather a lot too me it's probably best to hold fire til whenever it is these 'ere b'day drugs finally decide to call it a night. And mean it for a change :D

(off-topic but lawdy does that mxp stuff have a beast of a half-life on it () so got all the energy and enthusiasm in the world for debate but far from convinced it won't just descend into gleefully manic, quasi-coherent rantings )

I would hate to see EADD become a carbon copy of some of the other forums on this site cos there are real problems with that approach to running things (imo (to be explained a bit properly when a tad... actually probably less motivated would be good for once :D) etc, etc). However, I have long been pondering here and there about ways that EADD can maybe look at re-assessing and amending approaches to enforcing forum rules and accepted etiquettes. I absolutely do not think censoring discussion of drug use of any kindsis ever gonna be a helpful approach but looking at ways to maybe make things clearer to non-regular readers of what types of behaviours and activities carry more extreme risks and similar issues could be a possible change that could be examined. There is plenty of sound advice given but there is often a lot of mucking around and casual anecdoting (yes, it is possible I may contribute to this at times) where it's maybe not made clear in context. There can also be a problem with threads getting scant "serious" replies resulting in the thread dying the death of the Pages that Are Not Page One or maybe it just become a briefly blossoming branch of Gibberings but I can imagine such stuffs could well put off noobs in particular who are not familiar with the way threads can develop and evolve - often way beyond the starting point - in EADD.

Given the nature of an open public forum we can't expect non-regulars to have any idea about longer-standing members' ongoing relationships, histories and interaction and I'm sure it must seem like they've wandered into an asylum for the criminally insane half the time. People do "meet" online who would probably never come into contact in their everyday lives and behaviour that seems perfectly acceptable and un-noteworthy to some of us due to years of being around such activity can surely make certain things far more blasé than they really should be, perhaps. And, of course, that kinda works the other way too in an odd way - both ends of the spectrum seem a very long way away indeed and the reasons for an individual being at any given point on that spectrum can be complex and interwoven with any number of other issues. I think communication and debate on such matters should be strongly encouraged but any actions in terms of drastic change need to be thoroughly considered and given plenty of space and time to bed in. Imo, etc, etc.

It's always been a balancing act trying to cater to the various needs of such a wide range of members - not to mention non-members whether regular lurkers or one-off Google hits - it's not a clear "problem" with a simple "solution". I'm certainly not gonna say there is nothing that could do with being looked at and reappraised but HR really is the reason for this site and it's really not as simple as giving out Erowid tables for dose/duration and glossing over the huge variety of individual difference user experiences. People looking for good HR info need to have access to as much info as possible cos one size does not fit all and pushing too hard either way in terms of ED-style hat-wearing conundra or the EADD Fukked thread on any given day. It needs to be realistic, recognisable and comprehensible to the individual user in their own life. Something they can relate to. But there are certainly potential issues surrounding glorification of risky behaviours and the like which is clearly not HR at it's finest. Although I'd still argue there is a place for that kinda stuff but it maybe needs to be more restricted to purely social threads, perhaps. Dunno. Not wanting to make any specific suggestions yet due to feeling far too good to trust anything I see, hear or think entirely. Just finding it hard to hold off completely when all fired up is all so having a lil (trust me this could've been a lot less lil ) ramble is all. Great to see the discussion being had and I hope to see many more chipping in with their own thoughts and feelings

 

[Si Dread]

haha nice post ^

I wasn't planning on opening a thread on this subject, I had this one knocked together for me, so to speak...

I don't think I or anyone else is suggesting we go all namby fucking pamby about drugs, ok? & I am not trying to exclude anyone because of their drugs choices. No-one should construe that post as a personal criticism, there's just a generally over-relaxed attitude to dangerous drugs/drug use in EADD that I personaly feel should be addressed in some way. The losses we've suffered in the last 18 months or so have just brought this more to the fore in my mind & while we're talking about types of indiscretion anyway, I thought it might be another opportunity to bring it up.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

"EADD should align with the wider Bluelight HR strategy, or simply rename itself EAD and have moderators remove all talk of drugs (full time job awaits LOL)."

AFAIK its only the loungue that doesnt talk about drugs. The wider BL policy isnt do not talk about drugs 75 % guestimate of the subforums are all about drugs. There is allready a heroin thread in EADD, you might arrgue perhaps all talk of heroin should be left in there, but then the wider community probably wouldnt engage, the heroin users here probably best know how to support each other, but EADDs wider community was not short of opinions when people started injecting themselves with herion on a mid week night for the first time.

 

[Si Dread]

... why does my suggestion have to exclude heroin users, or have discussion of heroin or dangerous drugs use banned? That's patently ridiculous. Drugs is not a black & white issue, nothing's a black & white issue, everything has depth & tone to it & I'm suggesting we think about our "tone" a little. There need be no rules changes or anything, just a little more support for the people who'd rather say, hey, instead of looking for ways to make your heroin buzz feel less itchy, perhaps you might use ths site to seek a way to give the stuff up altogether. To be honest, the only HR advice I'd wanna give an addict is, you need to stop. Alcoholics don't get advice that says yeah yeah, a couple of pints is fine, just don't drink a couple bottles of vodka. Alcholics are trained to stop fucking drinking, period! We need to have that attitude here & apply it wherever we feel drugs use is dangerous or out of control & not be ganged up upon by cliques of dangerous drugs users all propping each other up!

It's really not complicated, but it does mean a subtle sea-change in our (yes us, we, the users of BL, not moderators or staff!) behaviour. If we start now, we might save someone much more serious problems in the future.

 

[knock]

... why does my suggestion have to exclude heroin users, or have discussion of heroin or dangerous drugs use banned? That's patently ridiculous. Drugs is not a black & white issue, nothing's a black & white issue, everything has depth & tone to it & I'm suggesting we think about our "tone" a little. There need be no rules changes or anything, just a little more support for the people who'd rather say, hey, instead of looking for ways to make your heroin buzz feel less itchy, perhaps you might use ths site to seek a way to give the stuff up altogether. To be honest, the only HR advice I'd wanna give an addict is, you need to stop. Alcoholics don't get advice that says yeah yeah, a couple of pints is fine, just don't drink a couple bottles of vodka. Alcholics are trained to stop fucking drinking, period! We need to have that attitude here & apply it wherever we feel drugs use is dangerous or out of control & not be ganged up upon by cliques of dangerous drugs users all propping each other up!

It's really not complicated, but it does mean a subtle sea-change in our (yes us, we, the users of BL, not moderators or staff!) behaviour. If we start now, we might save someone much more serious problems in the future.

I see contradiction.

I am a nicotine addict. I switched from cigarettes to snus (moist snuff, used orally) as a harm reduction measure. I think that was a good thing.

I think nicotine addicts should switch from cigarettes to less harmful forms of nicotine delivery.

 

[RLP]

I don't think you've read my post properly. Forums generally do not practise HR, they enable discussion. Do you see? Even a forum called "harm reduction forum" couldn't possibly practise HR because forums don't take drugs.

What I'm saying is the responsibilitiy for preaching and practising HR lies with the members, not the forum. The forum is a piece of software.

Is this getting through :D

When I say "the forum" I mean the members, not the software. I genuinely didn't realise you thought I meant the software was at fault because it's a frankly ridiculous notion.

"EADD should align with the wider Bluelight HR strategy, or simply rename itself EAD and have moderators remove all talk of drugs (full time job awaits LOL)."

AFAIK its only the loungue that doesnt talk about drugs. The wider BL policy isnt do not talk about drugs 75 % guestimate of the subforums are all about drugs. There is allready a heroin thread in EADD, you might arrgue perhaps all talk of heroin should be left in there, but then the wider community probably wouldnt engage, the heroin users here probably best know how to support each other, but EADDs wider community was not short of opinions when people started injecting themselves with herion on a mid week night for the first time.

Should align with BL strategy OR drop the drug discussion.

Bluelight is, unless someone is going to tell me differently, predominantly a forum for drug harm reduction and avoidance. There are too many instances in EADD where dangerous drug usage is passed off with a giggle. Again - our regulars on here are generally clued up what is dangerous and what isn't, but this is a public forum where any man and his dog can stumble across given the right google search. As such, we are responsible for more than the posters we know of. Not highlighting risky behaviour may legitimise such actions to people who don't have the depth of knowledge we do and therefore will not be able to make informed decisions on their usage.

You may say we can't help everyone. Fair enough, make this a private forum then.

-

Great post Shambles.

 

[Sammy G]

There are too many instances in EADD where dangerous drug usage is passed off with a giggle.

That's the received wisdom, but try as I might, I really can't think of any real examples. I know of several examples of the exact opposite.

More to the point, it was private intervention (thanks Pagey and BCF) which did more to deter me from dangerous behaviour on my last drug binge. No amount of public ticking-off posting links to HR resources would have changed my mind.

 

[Si Dread]

I see contradiction.

I see distraction. I'd prefer to focus on this issue rather than start picking your posts apart looking for contradictions because I fail to see how that would be a good use of time.

 

[knock]

When I say "the forum" I mean the members, not the software. I genuinely didn't realise you thought I meant the software was at fault because it's a frankly ridiculous notion.

Yes I was thinking much the same thing. I'm just trying to make absolutely clear that you/we the members are responsible for practising and preaching HR. Staff are too, but I don't think especially so. We're responsible for enforcing the rules of good order.

I see distraction. I'd prefer to focus on this issue rather than start picking your posts apart looking for contradictions because I fail to see how that would be a good use of time.

I really am baffled by your response. You were saying how drugs are not black and white, nothing is black and white, then you said "the only advice I would give an addict is STOP", which is black and white, so I'm identifying your faulty logic, which I think is part of good discussion.

Then I gave you an example of addiction and HR, which I think shows the STOP answer is not necessarily the only one that should be given out.

 

[Sammy G]

Alcoholics don't get advice that says yeah yeah, a couple of pints is fine, just don't drink a couple bottles of vodka. Alcholics are trained to stop fucking drinking, period! We need to have that attitude here & apply it wherever we feel drugs use is dangerous or out of control & not be ganged up upon by cliques of dangerous drugs users all propping each other up!

There you go again with these 'cliques of dangerous drugs users'. Do these cliques exist? Do they actually 'gang up on people'?

I've never seen it.

.To be honest, the only HR advice I'd wanna give an addict is, you need to stop.

That's not HR, it's promoting abstinence. Which is a noble enough aim in itself, but from a pragmatist's point of view, the message that drugs are bad and dangerous is already widely propagated outside BL, and it mostly fails miserably in its aims.