Is addiction forever?/ Are we permanently the "A" word? (Addict)

[ib_PYRO]

It's is just a 12-step cultist mantra used to make you think you need their shitty group that takes credit for the rate of spontaneous remission. The indoctrinated will always mindlessly defend that view. Their minds are lost.

As a member of AA, I agree that it is quite dogmatic and many treat the big book as if it was their bible, Quoran, or the word of God. But it does work for a lot of ppl, I think some ppl need that cult mentality to stay sober. I don;t see why you have such a negative view of it. It seems to be better than the alternatives for many. Just b/c some members seem dogmatic doesn't mean you shouldn't go if you think you have a problem. The only real requirement is a desire to stop drinking (or whatever your vice is). Meetings and going thru the steps help to remind me why I stopped drinking and using other problematic drugs. Everyone is different and there are certain guidelines I'm not following (I'll still use kava/kratom, not going to be celibate my first year, don't think psychedelic use should be considered a relapse, etc.). I don't enjoy pot but if I did I don't think it would cause me to pick up a drink. A few may recover and be able to use responsibly again but I feel most ppl that end up in those meetings wouldn't be capable of that. So why would they help rationalize taking that risk? To be able to walk into a room full of sober ppl that you can really relate to and seeing them laugh/being happy after you recently stopped using b/c you lost so much as a result can have a powerful effect.

There is one story from the big book that comes to mind of an alcoholic who decided to quit drinking b/c it was effecting his work performance. He stayed sober for decades, but as soon as he retired he went back to his old ways and died early as a result.

There are many ways to define addiction and everyone is different, so obviously "once an addict, always an addict" is a generalization. But they don't want you to delude yourself into believing you are an exception that. You may be, but is it worth the risk to find out? Only the person in question can decide if they think it is. It would be irresponsible of a program or counselor to help you rationalize using to find out.

 

[ib_PYRO]

Craving only occurs in two stages... 1.) Withdrawal... or 2.) Presence of drug... The second part is easily overshadowed if sobriety has been maintained for a sufficient period.

This is the only reason why alcoholics and smokers are more prone to failure... There is no real repercussions to use besides health issues.

Alcohol can be treated much the same as benzodiazepine dependence, Correct?

But, it is not illegal nor hard to acquire scotch if the funds and transportation are available. This makes compulsion easier.

Moved to new thread.

Could you share some details about your addiction? What drug(s) do you specifically have problems with?

I am a recovering alcoholic (little over 30 days sober). And used to have a serious problem with Rx'd amphetamines (2 years ago). I am physically dependent on Klonopin (Rx). I know several former IV heroin users with years of sobriety they all tell me they still have the obsession. So it seems to me that many experience cravings after withdrawal and sober time. I am only 24 and have been able to take breaks from drinking for a few months without a program, so when I did decide to quit I feel I have an advantage over the guys who quit later in life. I go to meetings and have a good support network so when I am around alcohol, at least so far, I haven't experienced cravings powerful enough to over-ride my judgement. But I do feel that if I start drinking in moderation, I will eventually slide back into an even worse cycle of problem drinking.

I quit using stims over two yrs ago, but it seems the abuse have changed my brain in such a way that I require low, medical doses to function normally. After refusing to take them for fear of sliding back into that I have avoided them, but I'm now starting a low daily dose of vyvanse and after a trial period, so far I feel as tho I have successfully changed my mindset to where I can use low to moderate doses during the day, as long as I only take as Rx'd. I know I can't be sure I won't fall back into old habits however I am confident enough that I won't so I feel that the benefits outweigh the potential risks.

As far as presence of drugs go and booze being harder to quit for that reason, I agree there is merit to that point but I know a few heroin addicts who have moved to a different town to try and get away from it but they end up finding sources very quickly.

There are many repercussions to alcohol abuse besides long term health issues, such as damaged relationships, financial irresponsibility, arrests, injuries, increased anxiety and depression between drinking sessions (part of what many of us are trying to escape from already by drinking), amnesia, etc. There really isn't medical value to booze, so I have decided that it is best for me not to drink at all.

Benzodiazapine dependence is not the same as alcohol, at least for me. I went yrs only using prn, as I do not find them rewarding or pleasant beyond the relief of anxiety. Eventually a doctor (I suspect he was trying to cover his ass legally in case I was lying about not being dependent and had a withdrawal seizure or something) convinced me to take 3 mg/day. I listened b/c I was at a very low point in my life and decided for once to co-operate fully with this doc. Only then I became physically dependent. I do not have a psychological addiction like with alcohol. I got down to .5mg/day on my own and use the extra prn. I have accepted that in order to quit entirely I would have to take months off from my responsibilities in order to deal with the physical withdrawals, and even after I would probably have worse anxiety than I did when I was rx'd them originally - so I feel my best course of action is to stay on the lowest possible maintenance dose indefinably. I once missed a doc appt and spent two weeks in withdrawal - couldn't leave the house and my parents had to take care of me. Even if I quit entirely there is a possibility I would have to choose between going back on them or being in worse shape then before. Acute withdrawal from alcohol alone can be managed by switching to benzos short term to avoid seizures/extreme anxiety and most alcoholics don't spend much time in acute withdrawal.

From what I have seen it is easier to recover from the compulsion to drink than the compulsion to use something like IV heroin, even tho alcohol is sold everywhere.

 

[Crampz]

for me it is true and <is dragging me further down>

 

[FakeFlake]

I just want to say that for many years of my life there has been much drug abuse , mostly cannabis and amps. Some years of experimenting , I wanted to "see" another stuff. I wanted to escape my life and reality, I have a long history of difficult youth and abuse. I abused drugs , work , money , sex , even computer games... Now im totally sober , and I feel that I'm getting addicted to just being myself. So now I'm not struggling anymore , sometimes I just think of any drug I used to do, and I feel like I'm going to be sick. I really do not want any part of that lifestyle in my life again. I'm starting to see clearly and not from that "12 steps point of view", and not from another persons view at all.. I have my own mind and I'm starting to recover so well .... When ur done , ur DONE . I guess everyone will not make it , but I do have the believe that once you started abusing drugs more and more, social life starting to crash, family rejection and etc ... You gotta make a choice , maybe ur last one... in a way.. make the right one , the right one SHOULD be to not do drugs anymore at that point. IMO .

 

[pofacedhoe]

i have beaten many addictions

tobacco, amphetamine, mephedrone, tramadol, methylphenidate, poppies, etizolam, zopiclone. all beatable!

can i say i will never take the drug again? no (except for benzo's because their withdrawal was something else and i wouldn't wish that on anyone)

basically to get away from a drug its easy- dont have it around you is the first part

thats why booze is so hard to quit but you have to realise that you are worth more than self destruction and love is the key. social world and love

 

[FakeFlake]

i have beaten many addictions

tobacco, amphetamine, mephedrone, tramadol, methylphenidate, poppies, etizolam, zopiclone. all beatable!

can i say i will never take the drug again? no (except for benzo's because their withdrawal was something else and i wouldn't wish that on anyone)

basically to get away from a drug its easy- dont have it around you is the first part

thats why booze is so hard to quit but you have to realise that you are worth more than self destruction and love is the key. social world and love

I agree 100% . I'm so glad I never felt for the alcohol, I guess that I owe my parents pretty much for that since they didn't drink it much at all...

 

[Dresden]

You can turn a cucumber into a pickle, but once the cucumber has become a pickle, it can never go back to simply being a cucumber again.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

I have had substance abuse issues and I am an alcoholic even though I was not physically addicted to alcohol I still drank way too much, would stay drunk for days, puke, and black out, keep drinking, and then do it all over again to avoid a horrible hangover. I was in college at the time and it was pretty crazy that I was easily able to still go to classes, get excellent grades, work, and write reports and do projects. Aside from drinking a beer once before a morning class, and drinking a lot before night classes I had a few times a week I did not go to class drunk. I stopped drinking alcohol daily without going to Detox/treatment or AA/NA, but I know this does not work for everyone, and I finally stopped drinking alcohol after I'd had enough of continuing to binge drink on the weekends and getting sick, passing out, blacking out, and all of that. I don't want to ever get back to the point where I was when I was at my worst where I was binge drinking very large amounts of alcohol nightly, and in a very bad state of mind.

I've been sober from alcohol for over a year, have not taken any stimulants like amphetamines or coke in over a decade, haven't smoked or used cannabis in years, and haven't used any opiates in a decade. Psychedelics IME are not addictive but I have not taken LSD or mushrooms in over a decade. I'm not sure if I could recreationally use drugs anymore? I don't want to test this, and wind up having a major relapse with alcohol, or trade one addiction or addictive drug for another, and lose everything.

 

[FakeFlake]

I am sober from all substances still, sometimes the drugs got a hold on me. But I still staying strong and I would probably say no to any drug still. I'm afraid of going down that road again, actually frightened.. So I totally understand you PriestTheyCalledHim, although I've been only sober for about 3-4 months now..

 

[Captain.Heroin]

i have beaten many addictions

tobacco, amphetamine, mephedrone, tramadol, methylphenidate, poppies, etizolam, zopiclone. all beatable!

can i say i will never take the drug again? no (except for benzo's because their withdrawal was something else and i wouldn't wish that on anyone)

basically to get away from a drug its easy- dont have it around you is the first part

thats why booze is so hard to quit but you have to realise that you are worth more than self destruction and love is the key. social world and love

^ great post

 

[VerbalTruist]

Yes, but you can get into an active program of recovery and not use.

 

[mork]

I had the make up of an addict when I was a boy, I was and still am an addict throughout my teenage and adult life - and here I am, almost 40, and yes I still am an addict. Ive done detoxes, rehab, 12 steps - which all have help however it hasn't change that fact that am I am addict and will always be an addict

 

[Vaya]

Hey all!

This is a fantastically compelling discussion!

Because it literally embodies a discussion about 'Sober Living,' I would love to see it thrive in that forum, so that many others - specifically seeking threads with interesting and powerful ideas such as this one - are more likely to see it.

Psychedelic Jay, I am going to move this discussion to the Sober Living forum IF, however, you disagree, please message me and I will move it right back for you.
Thanks

~ Vaya

 

[factorygirl]

So the last time I was on the site was in the height of my heroin addiction. I have been clean for over 2 years (with help from Suboxone). I have always wondered if I'll always be an addict. If I have kids do I have to disclose the stories behind my track marks? Why my sister and I no longer talk?

I admit, I do drink on occasion; in alignment with my understanding of 12-step programs I am not clean/sober.

This isn't a question with a clear answer. Doesn't media and society warp our minds into believing what an addict is? Don't we often follow in these created personas perpetuating the stereotypes?

I don't think I'm an addict anymore BUT but who knows for sure? The only true test would to be to place me in a room with a needle though no researcher would due to the ethical implications. It's subjective. If you believe you are no longer an addict, maybe you aren't. You're the only person who can answer that question.

At this point I would say that I am no longer a slave to heroin but this might change. This week my doctor, therapist, and I have planned operation 'Get Off Subs Before 2014.' Wish me luck.

x

 

[itsALLfake]

^Good luck with jumping off of Buprenorphine..

I personally think this thread should be moved back. It isn't something I would've needed to read when I first got clean.. I already had these thoughts in my head, and if I was on anything more than Alprazolam and Buprenorphine, I'm sure I would've acted on those thoughts.

Not saying that I disagree with the idea..cuz I don't, but people fresh off dope don't really need to have this reinforcing the thought process that is already there.

 

[Space Firebird]

Psychedelic Jay, are you saying that you think it is possible to be an occasional user of opiates (pills)?

I'm curious as to whether anyone here feels they can chip oxycodone without getting hooked.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Psychedelic Jay, are you saying that you think it is possible to be an occasional user of opiates (pills)?

I'm curious as to whether anyone here feels they can chip oxycodone without getting hooked.

Everyone's different.

When I was into using opiates I would take low doses of oxycodone, hydrocodone, and codeine all separately on occasion mainly just on weekends a few times a month and I did this for 5-6 years. I never became addicted to them; but I never took them in large amounts, never took them daily, I took them orally and never snorted, IV'd, or took them another way, and I did not have unlimited access to them whenever I wanted them.

When I wanted to stop using opiates I just quit taking them. I was not addicted so I did not have to go through withdrawal, taper down, or go on suboxone. I quit taking them because I did not like how I could not drink on them, and I know people do drink on them but I never did, and instead I'd just sometimes smoke some herb. I did not like the side effects like how when I was coming down I would get horrible stomach cramps. Apparently I am lucky I did not get addicted.

 

[Vaya]

I have always wondered if I'll always be an addict. If I have kids do I have to disclose the stories behind my track marks? Why my sister and I no longer talk?

Took my breath away, reading your post, snowxwhite. It did - I mean, I'm left thinking to myself, "How many times have I asked myself that same exact question?" What first comes to mind wastage persistent frustration I would find myself sink into at not being able to arrive at a nice and tidy answer each time. You really put that part fit into perspective with the remark,

This isn't a question with a clear answer.

I couldn't agree more. It still leaves a sour taste, though, for me. I dunno, I guess I find comfort in closure - of which the answer to the question provides none! :/

Doesn't media and society warp our minds into believing what an addict is? Don't we often follow in these created personas perpetuating the stereotypes?

....thought that was part of the job title
No, but in all seriousness, the "popular portrayal" of one who has struggled as I have often leaves me feeling so embittered. I found it refreshing to read a post like yours that lacked such an ugly, mercurial reaction. It underscores the fact that just because they say so, doesn't at all make it actually so. Wise words!

This week my doctor, therapist, and I have planned operation 'Get Off Subs Before 2014.' Wish me luck.

That sounds like such an awsome idea to me
Good Luck!

And, now, when real-world support isn't readily available (not many meetings or people to call when the sick thirst hits at 3:13 AM on a Monday morning... :/), at least you know this community will be here. Bluelight had helped me so much - so much so, in fact, that I often credit every member here as being instrumental to my still being alive. My deepest wish for you is that you find similar solace here amongst friends!

I personally think this thread should be moved back. It isn't something I would've needed to read when I first got clean..

Hey, I'm really glad you spoke up, itsALLfake! (Killer name, by-the-by )
I hadn't thought of it in this light before.

I love the way I'm consistently offered refreshing perspectives. Psychedelic Jay, as the thread's creator, will you care to weigh in? I stand by the statement I made when I moved it initially after someone had made the suggestion:

Psychedelic Jay, I am going to move this discussion to the Sober Living forum IF, however, you disagree, please message me and I will move it right back for you.

Wherever this thread's message and content are most beneficial is where I want to see this topic reside. I feel truly grateful to be a part of our informed think-tank-collective that I often wish it so easily existed in real life sometimes

If PsychJay will weigh in (or any one else, for that matter!!), I'll ensure this discussion comes to test where it needs to be.

Those interested, speak your mind here, via PMto me, or both! I'll check back

Psychedelic Jay, are you saying that you think it is possible to be an occasional user of opiates (pills)?

I'm curious as to whether anyone here feels they can chip oxycodone without getting hooked.

If you don't mind my adding my own thoughts Space Firebird (what an awesome handle ), I've totally seen people who encapsulate that pattern of opioid use (as alien a concept as it is to me ). One of my best friends and roommates somehow pulls this off. She knows my history,mans we have a mutual respect; she wouldn't be caught dead railing oxys in front of me, and yet, I know that she is into it.

I used to allow any body'sopiate use to make me jealous and resentful. It is with a sigh of relief, however, that I now view that ability in another as something to marvel at. It seems truly emblematic of the stark variability in the human race. But, hey, variability keeps me fascinated my the expanse of humanity at least

Everyone's different

Testify, Priest!
Pretty much sums it up for me, right there... Incredible, the amount of time I squandered resisting that notion.......

Wishing you all well this evening...

~ Vaya

 

[Space Firebird]

If you don't mind my adding my own thoughts Space Firebird (what an awesome handle ), I've totally seen people who encapsulate that pattern of opioid use (as alien a concept as it is to me

Thanks!
And yes I meant to ask anyone who would answer.
I would like to know how many people think it is possible to chip Oxy once in a while, say, every week or two.
I know A LOT of people who say it can't be done.

I'm already certain it have to be on some sort of very strict abstinence schedule in order to work.

 

[Vaya]

I have tried this too many times. I know how *my* mind works. I can begin a rational schedule, but eventually, with repetition, I can develop a false sense of control. The schedule slowly falls apart of I continue, and ultimately the situation will be one I will have waned to have voided from the very start.

That's my pattern.