What if alcohol were a brand new RC?

[MagickalKat777]

I've always been interested in the different feeling given by wine, hard liquor, and beer... wine is the most distinct, far more clear headed than the other two, but beer and hard liquor also lead to a distinctly different drunkeness for me. Anyone have some insights on why this is? Maybe a comparison to other substances? I know different weeds are different due to different cannabinoids, heard LSD can differ based on tweaking its synthesis, but never much discussion on why wine, beer, and hard liquor produce distinctly different intoxication.

There's even a variance in different hard liquors. Vodka is reliably qualitatively different from whiskey and tequila for me, for example.

I've always wondered why. I actually have the opposite reaction to wine. It feels more toxic to me than vodka or (most) beer.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I believe it may have to do with the settings each one is used.
Tequila is usually done in shots an leads to an energetic more rowdy drunk whereas wine is usually more relaxed.
Except when I drink wine I say fuck the glass, chug the bottle, and have a time
But then again there's the old myth about people becoming mean when they drink whisky, but I'm not sure if there's any truth to that

 

[MagickalKat777]

I drink all of my alcohol the same - out of the bottle and in large amounts

Tequila reliably makes me black out and tends to make me very emotional, especially with a mean streak
Whiskey reliably makes me flirt with everything that walks on two legs and gives me a significant hangover
Vodka reliably gets me trashed and is good for any situation
Beer... Well my tolerance is so high that I have to drink a case before I'm drunk but I tend to be flirty and very fun on beer.

 

[Solipsis]

It's not really fair to call GHB less safe than alcohol.

GHB may be very hypnotic giving it its notoriety regarding the steep dose-response curve when it comes to the hypnotic effect i.e. inducing sleep or passing out, but that does not mean a person is immediately near coma or death. Even so at the concentration I had my GHB back when I used it (I did it a lot for a while) 2-2.5 ml was already very enjoyable and uppity (it is more active on the GHB receptor at lower doses, which actually produces stimulant effects while it quickly becomes more GABA-ergic and sedative / hypnotic beyond a certain point). 4 ml felt like a full dose and 5 ml was definitely pushing it. Only regarding hypnosis that would come to a therapeutic index that with a stretch can be 2-2.5, but that is not about the classical meaning of therapeutic index which considers lethality. Passing out does imply risk of dying from aspiration and granted it is not always practical.

I have known people to accidentally chug pure GHB and survive, so I'm not sure about the actual toxicity and LD50. Actually after checking it appears that it is not really that toxic on its own, if the LD50 may be as low as 1 g/kg that would mean a therapeutic index of over 15 even if we take a full / strong dose as the value for "therapeutic" dose. The problem with GHB is mainly with inaccurate administration of undiluted product, mixing with other drugs like alcohol and dying from complications like situational accidents or vomit aspiration.

Alcohol on the other hand has a therapeutic index of only about 5-10. Alcohol poisoning is no joke and I have indeed been told that pure alcohol is pretty dangerous stuff.

http://www.lycaeum.org/~ghbfaq/complete.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index - mentions alcohol as having a TI of 10, another site said 5.

OK time to move this to the OD forum, since I haven't gotten a response earlier.

 

[MagickalKat777]

I think the point that we are making is that people who are accustomed to alcohol would likely overdose on GHB very easily because of the steep dose/response curve. Maybe I should have been more specific about the problems that can arise with GHB.

It would be hard to put out GHB drinks like they do with alcohol though and the hypnotic effects of GHB would certainly scare the shit out of bars and clubs, preventing them from selling it as opposed to alcohol.

Emergency room visits would spike from people thinking that someone was dying as well.

I just can't see GHB ever becoming socially acceptable like alcohol.

 

[EliCash]

There's even a variance in different hard liquors. Vodka is reliably qualitatively different from whiskey and tequila for me, for example.

I've always wondered why. I actually have the opposite reaction to wine. It feels more toxic to me than vodka or (most) beer.

That is also true, I find hard liquors closer to wine than beer for me. Beer is my drink of choice because I am able to reach my desired level of intoxication at a lower BAC than liquor and a much lower BAC than wine.

What do you mean by feels more toxic? I find cheap liquor feels the most toxic, but I judge that by how shitty it makes me feel the next day as opposed to the effects while I'm drunk.

 

[MagickalKat777]

What do you mean by feels more toxic? I find cheap liquor feels the most toxic, but I judge that by how shitty it makes me feel the next day as opposed to the effects while I'm drunk.

Well in the case of alcohol, most of the cheaper alcohols are high in congeners. That's one of the many reasons that I prefer vodka or even Everclear (although I have to be careful with Everclear, no matter what I mix it with it fucks me up very quickly - we have the 190 proof stuff here in my state with the big flammable warning label on it) over darker liquors.

When it comes to wine, it doesn't matter how cheap or expensive it is, I always feel dizzy and I tend to get a headache the next day. I don't usually experience normal hangovers, more like GABA rebound than anything else, but wine gives me a massive hangover.

I agree with you on the BAC with beer, I just wish I didn't have such a high tolerance to alcohol. Not that it matters since I haven't had a drop to drink since I started my Valium taper on 9/14 but one of these days I'll be drinking again and I've always had a very high tolerance.

 

[moe.ron]

I think the point that we are making is that people who are accustomed to alcohol would likely overdose on GHB very easily because of the steep dose/response curve. Maybe I should have been more specific about the problems that can arise with GHB.

It would be hard to put out GHB drinks like they do with alcohol though and the hypnotic effects of GHB would certainly scare the shit out of bars and clubs, preventing them from selling it as opposed to alcohol.

Emergency room visits would spike from people thinking that someone was dying as well.

I just can't see GHB ever becoming socially acceptable like alcohol.

well like some one else said give it 2000 years. Give people a chance to be raised on factual harm reduction based teachings, instead of propaganda. It would be very easy, several generations from us removed, for people to be raised to know that alcohol has a linear dose response curve while other intoxicants do not. Responsible people (read most people) will follow such directions, as in "only take between x and xx amount and never over xx." Most people drink responsibly, I see no reason as to why with the proper information ghb would be handled differently. As it is now ghb is illegal and thus rule out the truly responsible people from coming any where near it. And once it is handled responsibly the social misconceptions that prevent it from becoming acceptable would disappear.

As for if alcohol was only discovered in this day and age as a research chemical (read: not having its history of human use or cultural status) I imagine it would become quite popular and then be banned, and here's why. I often say that, to me, benzos are like alcohol without any of the bad parts, and that seems to be what David Nutt is getting at in that article. However, what nutt doesn't mention, and what makes alcohol so much more "fun" then benzos is that alcohol releases dopamine as well. My theory is that alcohols gaba related effects leads to the loss of social inhibition, relaxing qualities, and its sedative-hypnotic effects (which benzos share), while its dopamenic related effects are responsible for the euphoria that is present in alcohol but missing in benzos. So thanks to ethanol's unique pharmacological profile it will always be a leader among recreational substances, and in the society we live such substances get banned.

As for the prospects of a true alcohol mimicking pill, in my mind it would have to have strong gaba related effects along with dopamenic related effects, I think its possible but a hemical does not immediately spring to mind. The closest I have come to such a substance, was an 8 gram dose of ethaqualone. As to whether its pharmacological profile actually acts on both gaba and dopamine receptors, I have no idea. But my hypothesis is that for alcohol in a pill, it needs gaba and dopamine related effects.

 

[electrodevo]

There's even a variance in different hard liquors. Vodka is reliably qualitatively different from whiskey and tequila for me, for example.
I've always wondered why. I actually have the opposite reaction to wine. It feels more toxic to me than vodka or (most) beer.

Fusel alcohols and other congeners are a natural byproduct of fermentation. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them are active, in different ways than ethanol alone. Certain liquors and beverages have them. Some don't (vodka should have almost none).

Winemakers always add potassium metabisulfite. I seem to react to that chemical for some reason. Beer and liquor usually does not have additional preservatives.

Beer almost always contains hops, maybe in small quantities in some cases but large quantities in others. Hops are known to be a traditionally mellowing herb. According to the Wiki on hops, the primary chemical behind hops' sedative properties is our good ol' "RC alcohol" friend 2M2B.

The manufacturing process itself may contribute to different "profile". For instance, cheaper tequila adds cane sugar alcohol and colorings. Cheaper tequila also usually isn't aged -- barrel aging tends to mellow out some of the congeners mentioned above, while adding a flavor profile as well.

All of this is small stuff compared to the primary drug ethanol, but as in marijuana, all the small stuff plays a role in different profiles, I imagine.

 

[Asante]

If alcohol was an RC you could only buy it as 190 proof, and at the same places that sell GBL, 2M2B and BDO

 

[weekend addiction]

see: GHB

Labeled a date rape drug and made illegal as shit and hard to access.

 

[dopemegently]

Alcohol related violence, drink driving, and overdoses would skyrocket, the media would label it an epidemic, and the shit would be banned "faster than a rabbit gets fucked".

 

[MrSpeedyG]

Actually on second thoughts, I think it would be treated the same way as GHB only be less popular the GHB. Scheduled and not all that common!

 

[Morphling]

If alcohol were a new RC, someone would sell it to the indians and become instant multimillionaires. lol

Really, alcohol is rather shit, there is no drug I've ever done that results in such debilitating hangovers. When I'm getting drunk, it's only due to the fact that I don't have a different drug.

 

[MrSpeedyG]

Really, alcohol is rather shit, there is no drug I've ever done that results in such debilitating hangovers. When I'm getting drunk, it's only due to the fact that I don't have a different drug.

x200...

It's like saying what if a shitty analogue of GHB came out as an RC and was legal yet mimicked the similiar but not as good effects of GHB and it was called Gabohol

C'mon fellas, Alcohol is only legal and socially accepted due to it being around since the dark ages but compared to other common recreational drugs lets say MDMA, 4-MMC, meth, weed especially for crying out loud that blow alcohols effects and side effects out of the water.

 

[belfort]

yes i consider Ghb to be a far superior drug compared to alcohol..at this point in my life if im drinking alcohol, its only because nothing else is around..i dont even get a buzz from alcohol anymore no matter how many months i stay away from it..i just get a cloudy, full feeling and i have to piss every 5 seconds..it doesnt make me more social and outgoing at all like it used to ages ago..

 

[MagickalKat777]

Really, alcohol is rather shit, there is no drug I've ever done that results in such debilitating hangovers. When I'm getting drunk, it's only due to the fact that I don't have a different drug.

Not all of us have hangovers from alcohol... I sure don't. Even when I first started with it, I only vomited a few times and was tired the next day. Never had any other issues and would choose alcohol on work/school nights over anything but weed.

As I've gotten older (along with my comorbid panic disorder), I have to taper down off of it or I'll have tachycardia for a few days.

Alcohol isn't the problem though in that case, its metabolites are.

 

[banana king 84]

^ I agree, the fact that you are punished with a hangover for overindulgence is an incentive to moderate your dosage. How many other drugs have a built-in defense mechanism like that? As a wise old blues singer once said "drink till you feel good, then don't drink no more."

 

[MagickalKat777]

^ I agree, the fact that you are punished with a hangover for overindulgence is an incentive to moderate your dosage. How many other drugs have a built-in defense mechanism like that? As a wise old blues singer once said "drink till you feel good, then don't drink no more."

MDMA and MDA have this as well for sure.

I can't think of too many other drugs that have a consistent marker for when you've really overdone it though.

The thing is that in the case of alcohol, its a combination of metabolites and actual physical withdrawal that trigger a hangover. In the case of MDA and MDMA, its monoamine depletion.

 

[MrSpeedyG]

MDMA and MDA have this as well for sure.

I can't think of too many other drugs that have a consistent marker for when you've really overdone it though.

The thing is that in the case of alcohol, its a combination of metabolites and actual physical withdrawal that trigger a hangover. In the case of MDA and MDMA, its monoamine depletion.

My hangovers from alcohol on just a mild night out drinking are horrendous, it would actually take an MDMA comedown over drinking hangover. If alcohol had a minimal hangover and vomiting wasn't an issue maybe I'd like it more, but the negatives I get from alcohol weigh out the positives by far, for me anyway.

Alcohol is actually quite harsh on the body aswell though, a lot of it yes has to do with the metabolites as you said MagicalKat, the formaledhye!